Incline Elminage Gothic (former Japan only dungeon crawler)

[aweigh]

it actually took me a long time to fully understand how the modifiers work and it was only from reading the Wiki for elminage ORIGINAL that i finally got it. rule of thumb is:

- modifiers are: half damage ( - ); NORMAL DAMAGE ( = ); +50% ( + ), and double damage.

As with almost everything, E: Gothic did away with modifiers beyond 2x (in E: Original you could go all the way to fucking 10x) in order to make it more Wizardry-like and more difficult.

- regardless of what dmg modifier your weapon has it gets overridden by the modifier from armor pieces.

1. an example: God Slayer sub-spear does half-damage ( - ) versus humanoid classes (fighter/cleric/mage/thief) but double damage versus gods...

2. you equip warrior's obi or demon king's belt and that overrides the modifiers versus fighters (such as Skillving, your new best friend!) up to 1.5x dmg.

3. you enchant God Slayer to do double-damage versus fighers (Skillving) and also versus thieves (Polyete), but continue wearing the warrior's obi.

4. you will still do only 1.5x dmg versus fighters and thieves, regardless of the enchantment.

5. you change up your armor pieces and instead equip a Force Robe and now your God Slayer immediately begins dealing the 2x damage you enchanted on it versus those types.

This also applies to negative downgrades from armor pieces.

The whole point is to balance items, enchantment and armor pieces so that the player can't just blindly wear "sets" of gear without having to put thought into it.

There is ALWAYS some sort of pro/con trade off, even if it amounts to losing 1 armor class point in favor of dealing normal damage versus gods, or whatever.

If you enchanted a weapon to do double damage and it's not doing it, then you need to check your armor. Sometimes it's worth not having 2x damage, and instead settling for a "measly" 1.5x damage and opt to wear the best armor for a class, such as Lacquered armor for the samurai withs its + sign modifiers, which will override whaterver double-dmg enchantment is on those types on your weapon.

 

[Haplo]

Thing is, Lacquered Armor overrides also the bonuses of its own set. Each piece has +50% damage vs all humanoid sub-types, but also x2 (+100%) vs one of them. x2 vs Mages in case of Helmet, x2 vs Fighters in case of Plate, x2 vs Clerics in case of Gauntlets and I guess probably x2 vs Thiefs on Leggings.
But if you equip more then one piece of the set, all the better bonuses (x2) get overriden. I find it hard to believe that's intentional - do the devs encourage you to only ever wear 1 chosen piece of the Black Lacquered set?
Plus everywhere else the best bonus applies, here +50% bonuses suppress x2 bonuses (and x3, GodSlayer actually has a x3 modifier vs Gods and no negative racial modifiers).
Or it might be intentional... and the Black Lacquered armor set properties an oversight.

 

[aweigh]

Haplo yes, there is a scheme of priority in the pieces. this is intentional, and once again, it is to force the player to make strategical choices that weigh pros and cons on every individual armor piece instead of opting to use "sets".

maybe you'll need to change to a samurai helment that has 1 or 2 A.C. points worse than the Lacquered one, but won't fuck up the dmg-mod layout you're aiming for.

bonuses above 2x are special and unique (which is why i said earlier god slayer was top-tier spear).

(in fact, I consider it OP, because not only does it feature a 3x mod versus gods but its damage spread is better than most main-handed weapons, and _almost_ as good as a 2-handed weapon).

equip and de-quip armor gear until the correct dmg bonus shows up on the weapon info screen, and then you know which piece is the culprit.

also, i meant to say high king's belt earlier when using modifiers versus humanoid-classes, NOT the demon king's belt (which is good versus devils).

EDIT: this is why I will forever go on and on about how good Starfish is at itemization. they always manage to make their hundreds and hundreds of items/gear be perfectly balanced WITHOUT being "balanced" (i.e. everything averages out to the same shit).

like i've mentioned previously: elminage games will have you agonizing over how to dress up your chars even all the way down to the last floor of ibag's tower, which is a GOOD FUCKING THING (TM).

---------

EDIT x2: also, Lacquered armor (top-tier samurai gear) is Male-only, which means if your Sammie is a female you will have to enchant the pieces to remove Gender Restrictions.

"OMG THAT'S BULLSHIT IT FORCES U TO ALWAYS MAKE SAMURAI MALES!!""

Nope, wrong. There are 3 specific Female-only samurai armor pieces (a helmet, a glove, and boots) that trade 1 point of Armor class (meaning the female samurai in question will have 3 points of AC difference over her male counterpart, for the worse), BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT--

...those 3 pieces provide stuff like 50% protection against charm built-in, among other non-AC related enchantments.

And like I said, you can still enchant away the gender restrictions. Once more... RPG studios would do very well to ape Starfish Studios (and Wizardry, basically) itemization implementation.

 

[aweigh]

Oh, btw, i don't think the weapon's dmg-mod symbol changes in real-time as you equip/unequip stuff, sorry about that.

I have the answer to what you were wondering about, Haplo, concerning the dmg-mods overriding each other even from the same armor set...

- armor overrides weapon dmg-mods, and:

lowest dmg-mod overrides everything, regardless of where it's coming from.


- armor pieces override each other with the lowest dmg-mods taking precedence even if another armor piece has the same enemy type with a higher mod.

- this is discourage blind adherence to wearing "sets" and forcing the player to utilize varied loot. Like I said, there is no "best gear" in wizardry/elminage.

basically, start paying very close attention to the dmg-mods on every piece of armor you're wearing, and it's quite probable you're gonna have to have a gear replacement for 1 or 2 pieces in order to make the 2x dmg-mod on your weapons take effect.

...IF you want to, of course! none of that is mandatory, and maybe you want 1.5x dmg-mod because 1 of those armor pieces provides Beheading resistance or whatever.

 

[Haplo]

Haplo sorry for not checking the thread past weeks.
and what Gunnar says is true: don't stress over rare shit. there is soooo much gear in this game that filling out the item book (704 fucking items listed in the spreadsheet, btw) is one of the those things where only high degree autism will accomplish.

i've never done it, in any of the 4 elminage games (thankfully the best 2 of them being in english!), and i've sunk in literally around +2k hours spread over all 4 games, with around 700 of those hours on playthroughs w/ different parties of E: Gothic alone.

fuck, i didn't even snag a Poison Sword (rare drop, L-ranged Ninja sword. yes, an L-ranged sword) until like, my 3rd party playthrough of Gothic on PC.

hehe, instead of obsessing over not getting a specific weapon try "taking a break" from Ibag's Tower by playing Elminage Original (for PSP/NDS/3DS "roms" I use a website called Nico Blog, just google it, I can assure you I have never gotten a bad file from Nico's site) and download PPSSPP and just start a playthrough of Original since I assume you haven't.

Ibag's Tower is no joke, it can literally take more time to clear than the entirety of the game's previous content and there's nothing wrong with taking a break.

aweigh

I've got no ambition to gather ALL the items. Just the best ones
Guess this means hunting for Wind Release and Thunder God Particle for my Ninja now (levels 13 and 14 according to the wiki).
And maybe Angel Sandals + Light Mittens for my Summoner (and maybe Mage) - level 9.

I mean I likely need a few levels to be able to progress higher anyway, might as well do something, erm, productive.

Reached floor 15 BTW. Actually 16, cause the stairs are right next to each other. No elevator yet, though.
And shit got real. Belial is a huge pain on his own, nevermind with distractions allies. And I've encountered one group of 3 Stargazers with a Red Wisp Tank. Ouch.
My current level range is 115 (Valkyrie), ~100 Mage & Summoner, ~85 Samurai and Brawler and ~60 Ninja. I'm thinking I need to get a few moar.

 

[aweigh]

i actually find the pheonix's more annoying than Belial, especially when in packs.

- Against Belial? Stack 3-4 layers of Orath before even comitting to your first melee attack against him, otherwise it's just a waste of time. Also remember to single him out and eliminate ALL OTHER ENEMIES before beginning your Belial bumrush... oh, and remember to slow him down / speed your party up, so that you get your licks before he does, and so that you can cast Item Repair spell (Pendeku) on the turn after he breaks somebody's gear with his attacks BEFORE he gets to attack the (now defenseless) character.

- Oh, also, Elnam is p. good versus devils, and that includes versus Belial.

Sometimes Belial shows up with the final version of the Devil Lord, or whatever his name is, (usually accompanied by final version of the Hell-Whip enemy as well)...

- TAKE THAT DEVIL LORD FUCKER OUT FAST. He can cast Miracle and teleport your party into stone for an immediate game over. It's hilarious first time it happens to you though. :D

BTW, didn't I tell ya you'd be missing our pal Skillving eventually? Hehe.

REMEMBER TO DOUBLE-DAMAGE VERSUS DEVILS!

 

[Haplo]

Phoenixes aren't that bad if my Valkyrie and Gaia summon are alive and kicking. They make short work of them.

Wouldn't Robuti be more effective vs Belial then Orath? Different spell school, of course. And would need to stack lots. Need to try Elnam.
So far I've only beaten 1 single Belial, been avoiding him since. Costs too many resources. Most damage was done by buffed Gaia (he's quite insane) and spamming Ziakalad.

 

[aweigh]

yes, use both.

robuti goes away after some turns tho (has to do with enemy-only status recoveries), but orath sticks unless dispelled.

but yeah. use both.

 

[an Administrator]

I defeated the Surrendered Minister but it doesn't mark the event resolved and i can't access the church dungeon. :\

EDIT: nvm i forgot to report to the king.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

anyone have the .bra extractor for this? wanna fiddle around with game files.

 

[jungl]

Pretty sure this game is impossible to mod besides small stuff like XP gain rate. Otherwise by now someone would of replaced the hardest god fights with the bogdanov brothers.

 

[duanth123]

anyone have the .bra extractor for this? wanna fiddle around with game files.

https://mega.nz/#!m94SATaQ!HqOmjsPJO6IrA4FH8Z-aUoRhkEG6sExRdMqFJ8RgdLE

Pretty sure this game is impossible to mod besides small stuff like XP gain rate. Otherwise by now someone would of replaced the hardest god fights with the bogdanov brothers.

You can create infinite maps, make a clearer map, modify items, etc. Pretty sure aweigh has done it.

Infinite maps is my one vice with this game.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

anyone have the .bra extractor for this? wanna fiddle around with game files.

https://mega.nz/#!m94SATaQ!HqOmjsPJO6IrA4FH8Z-aUoRhkEG6sExRdMqFJ8RgdLE

Pretty sure this game is impossible to mod besides small stuff like XP gain rate. Otherwise by now someone would of replaced the hardest god fights with the bogdanov brothers.

You can create infinite maps, make a clearer map, modify items, etc. Pretty sure aweigh has done it.

Infinite maps is my one vice with this game.

thanks. i will download it when i am off work.

 

[an Administrator]

Why do enemies with row shift ability often use it twice during combat? Because it's not possible to change position of party members? That's just some bad game design imo.

 

[duanth123]

Why do enemies with row shift ability often use it twice during combat? Because it's not possible to change position of party members? That's just some bad game design imo.

If you give a character the Stronghold EX Skill, it won't happen as often (if ever?)

Supposedly they also won't use if it you cast Bifei on someone.

 

[Haplo]

Some enemies will also Barrier twice per round and do other senseless stuff.
They won't "go for the kill", focus fire or even choose the most efficient action.
I think that there is no actual AI programming involved, the computer simply selects one of the available actions at random - depending on proximity.
So they can use breath for 15 points of damage when almost dead, for example.

 

[Dorarnae]

Some enemies will also Barrier twice per round and do other senseless stuff.
They won't "go for the kill", focus fire or even choose the most efficient action.
I think that there is no actual AI programming involved, the computer simply selects one of the available actions at random - depending on proximity.
So they can use breath for 15 points of damage when almost dead, for example.

there is some I guess. the skill to kill instantly your pet won't be use if you have no pet.

 

[Haplo]

Some conditions maybe. Such as always using Summon Judgement from the back row.

 

[Haplo]

Got a Blue Gale from the Eternal Puppy. Man, end game Valkyries sure pack some crazy damage. Almost 2000 damage main hand and roughly 800 offhand (if all main hand and most offhand attacks hit, GodSlayer has bad accuracy). Only character that comes near what Gaia dishes.

But I am a bit dishearted. My party is in the 100-130 level range and to progress further I prolly have to grind at least some 40 levels.
I would like to poke-ball a StarGazer (almost all encounters with them end up as wipes/escapes), but my Summoner is roughly 50 levels short to stand a chance.
So for now I'm stuck with Gaia. Only other feasible target ATM seems to be Tomoko. But is he worth the contract grind? Better then Gaia, who has 4 actions and rather crazy stats? Doubt it. Although he does have the "AC increase" trait, so with Blood Oath might become very difficult to hit.
Enemies with "Restore" trait are a definite no-go for me. Would take ages of pain to get one, I'm sure. And obviously most tower denizens have "Restore".

Eh, don't really feel like grinding so much now.
Maybe need a break.

 

[Exbelion]

Everyone talking about Belial...how about Drath Gloria? That girl is nigh impossible! She always comes with her demon bodyguards. Attacking Belial while on back row is a royal pain, and then she packs a punch with Breath+ and weakens the party with Strange Miasma Wave....any tips?

By the way, she is my favorite monster design in the game after Skillving.....her design...just awesome and badass, to top on that she ia huge as hell :v)/

 

[Exbelion]

Got a Blue Gale from the Eternal Puppy. Man, end game Valkyries sure pack some crazy damage. Almost 2000 damage main hand and roughly 800 offhand (if all main hand and most offhand attacks hit, GodSlayer has bad accuracy). Only character that comes near what Gaia dishes.

But I am a bit dishearted. My party is in the 100-130 level range and to progress further I prolly have to grind at least some 40 levels.
I would like to poke-ball a StarGazer (almost all encounters with them end up as wipes/escapes), but my Summoner is roughly 50 levels short to stand a chance.
So for now I'm stuck with Gaia. Only other feasible target ATM seems to be Tomoko. But is he worth the contract grind? Better then Gaia, who has 4 actions and rather crazy stats? Doubt it. Although he does have the "AC increase" trait, so with Blood Oath might become very difficult to hit.
Enemies with "Restore" trait are a definite no-go for me. Would take ages of pain to get one, I'm sure. And obviously most tower denizens have "Restore".

Eh, don't really feel like grinding so much now.
Maybe need a break.

Wow....falling 16 floors down...that's gotta hurt.
At least Eternal Puppy (hilarious name) was easy...but you have to go back all the way up. Having Diomente restricted is absolutely painful...

 

[aweigh]

pretty sure darth gloria is a riff off the updated design of the giant chicken from wizardry 3's snes and ps1 ports.



a lot of elminage enemy designs are also re-purposed art from the developers (starfish) previous wizardry games; however E: Gothic features the biggest amount of 100% new enemy artwork that I noticed, with very few repurposed from their previous games.

(of course they always tweak them a little).

 

[Haplo]

Everyone talking about Belial...how about Drath Gloria? That girl is nigh impossible! She always comes with her demon bodyguards. Attacking Belial while on back row is a royal pain, and then she packs a punch with Breath+ and weakens the party with Strange Miasma Wave....any tips?

By the way, she is my favorite monster design in the game after Skillving.....her design...just awesome and badass, to top on that she ia huge as hell :v)/

Well, Drath Gloria isn't bad for me. Like all other (high in level and AC in relation to party) dragons, Robuti her once or twice and proceed to butcher. Of course the Strange Miasma Wave is a pain.
But in general I've found the dragons among the easiest encounters in the Tower. Only problem was their high-ish AC, but that could be remedied fairly easily. Well, except the Black Dragon with 8 actions per round and Summon Judgement. That one is pretty brutal.

And regarding falling down... sure it's somewhat annoying... but you are aware of the elevators, right? Available every 5 levels (though usually hidden).

 

[Exbelion]

Well, here is a short recap of, in my experience, are the hardest enemies in the tower:
* Terror: I found them very annoying
* Sentinel: they hit hard, have very high HP and appear along Aggresive Mimics and a Black Sun (if you have a ninja have fun beheading them)
* Apostate: his holy sword can deal tons of damage unless you properly prepare
* Skillving: Dragon's Roar, inflicts tons of status ailments, level drains, beheads, heals HP completely and may appear with other enemies (his design is my favorite in the game)
* Tomoku: 40% behead rate, inflicts tons of status ailments and hides
* Doppelganger: a royal pain: the stronger you are the stronger it becomes, no Mahamaha and no EXP. This enemy is a time waster and a pain (it does give EXP on the 3DS port)
* Angel: summons Salomes, heals lots of HP and absolute barrier is annoying
* Hecatoncheires: attacks like 14 times, and uses Song of Destruction. At least its breath attack is weak
* Wargod: high behead rate, inflicts confusion, hides and may appear along a Death Scythe
* Demon Lord and Arch Demon: our old friends from Soldier of the Giant Gods return and brought a new friend:
* Belial: perhaps the most infamous foe of the tower: Mark of Ruin, breaks items, rarely appears alone and that AC of -92 is just ridiculous
* Drath Gloria: appears along with Belial, uses Breath+ and Strange Miasma Wave
* Phoenix: they heal a lot of HP, they hit hard and appear in groups
* Archer Polette: appears in groups, attack multiple times, use Tarot and beheads
* Stargazer: same as Polette, plus item break (at least their behead rate is lower)
* Black Dragon: the infamous Black Dragon, one of the most brutal encounters in the tower, thank goodness it shows up alone
* Archangel: extremely rare (at least for me), they summon Angels, heal a lot of HP, its own HP is very high (over 6000) and hits hard
* Red and Blue Wisps: this things are literally tanks and will show up with Stargazers and other enemies on floors 16F to 20F (I was honestly expecting something epic such as a demon or a dragon as a floor master, Starfish could have re-used a demon woman which is a floor master on a Dungeon Load in Elminage III, do you guys remember her?)
* Demon Wall: high AC, hits hard, petrifies and uses Unclean Earth, so good luck healing petrified characters (this guy was a good floor master)
* Ancient and Divine Dragon: yeah, this guys gave me a bad time, specially Divine Dragon with Unclean Earth and its high level
* Nordetanit: hard as hell...
* Incarnation: even harder and the tower's ultimate challenge.

My top 5:
1) Belial
2) Black Dragon
3) Archer Polettes and Stargazers
4) Skillving
5) Doppelganger (their difficulty is variable)

So yeah, Ibag Tower is hard as hell, and Elminage Gothic is without a doubt one of the hardest dungeon crawlers ever, but Wizardry IV is even harder (haven't played it)

 

[an Administrator]

Some enemies will also Barrier twice per round and do other senseless stuff.
They won't "go for the kill", focus fire or even choose the most efficient action.
I think that there is no actual AI programming involved, the computer simply selects one of the available actions at random - depending on proximity.
So they can use breath for 15 points of damage when almost dead, for example.

I have noticed the same thing too. Sometimes enemies just randomly cast healing spells(like Sama Eyes) when no one in their party needs it. Like there is no AI involved in spell casting.