Empire of Sin - Brenda and John Romero's turn-based Mafia strategy

[Blaine]

Are they going to try again at making us their bitch?

Paradox certainly will be. Get ready for half the game to be available on release and the rest to be available piece by piece as paid DLC.

Half? More like 10%.

 

[Infinitron]

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2019-06-28-forget-xcom-empire-of-sin-is-like-gangster-total-war

Forget XCOM, Empire of Sin is like gangster Total War
Public Enemy Unknown.

Empire of Sin is rightfully getting some buzz. You've probably already heard this is the game Brenda Romero "always wanted to make", who's said she's been biding her time on the idea "for 20 years". The result of Brenda's long-standing love of mobster games, XCOM, and Civilization, Empire of Sin's drawn comparisons with some of publisher Paradox Interactive's biggest names, as well as those big hitters of the entire genre, too.

On the surface, that's exactly what it looks like: Civ on top, as you manage resources and tiles, and XCOM when you get up close. But the sense I got from seeing it in action - hands off, mind - was that if we're going to be name-dropping any other big, strategic PC franchise, it should really be Total War.

You'll start out having to choose a faction, with a certain character as the faction leader, as well as the actual scale of mob feud you're after. This means choosing how many neighborhoods and rival bosses you want to face off against. My demo actually had a great, seemingly organic "woah" moment where we zoomed out from street view to an overview of the entire district, which I thought was the whole game, until we zoomed out to another level of abstraction to view the whole city, with multiple, detached districts of 1920s Chicago in sight (three playable in my case, but with more possible).

There's a decent scale to Empire of Sin then, but what struck me was a seemingly vast depth. Take the characters themselves, for instance. Your task in the game is to gain control of the city with your faction, starting small and new to the town, and growing into an empire of you-know-what, and so at first you'll have just a couple of characters in your gang. You'll meet more along the way, each one with a specific set of traits, as well as some history with other characters. As they progress through the game those relationships will evolve, according to what you have them do: have one character perform certain bloody tasks and they'll get a thirst (and aptitude) for it. Keep doing that and they'll eventually pick up the "serial killer" trait, though, and they'll get a little unpredictable. Send them somewhere with another of your faction members and, if they get into an argument, that other characters will probably wind up dead. Overlook another character for a promotion within your gang and they might get antsy. Send a goon to kill a lover of theirs in another gang and they might refuse to do it - or if their lover's killed by someone else, they might go wild. In other words, these characters provide the human element that should keep games surprising.

A lot's been made of the extremely XCOM-like combat - and it is extremely XCOM-like, from its grid- and turn-based systems right down to abilities certain characters will have, such as Overwatch, where they can cover an area and attack any enemies that run through it.

But there's more to it. Because gangsters like to shoot it out in the streets in old movies, there's an urban dynamism to proceedings. Passing cars become cover, trucks and buses can change the lay of the land. (There's also something wonderfully gangstery about all this traffic crunching to a halt because you've decided to take down Tommy Tight-Lips outside a five-and-dime.)

On top of this street-level stuff is the big "system soup", as the developers in the room put it, that forms across the layer of management. As well as juggling people and preferences, you're also managing a criminal organisation, which means keeping a steady flow of cash coming in, wrestling for control of buildings and districts and playing politics with your rivals. In our demo, for instance, the first thing we did was take over a speakeasy, bursting in and gunning down the handful of guards posted there and proceeding to get tinkering behind the scenes. On a micro level that meant upgrading the decor in our new haunt to draw in a higher class of clientele (think bottle-green paintwork updated to a classy mahogany panelling), or getting production going on a certain quality of liquor (you can make everything from top-shelf money-spinners to a poisoned batch to sell to your rivals).

Flipping that place had consequences - play for a while and you clearly even end up sounding like Bogart. Anyway, it meant that we wound up another mob boss from an already-established gang, who called us into a "sit down". We made our way there - even how you do so, from paid driver to on foot, has consequences in terms of your risk of being ambushed - and a few fairly simple dialogue-choices later we're launched into another gunfight out back, with more consequences along the way: if we'd weaseled our way out of conflict through giving into his demands, for instance that might have saved us some risk but cost us some standing with other factions. Likewise if we take him out in the fight (which we did) it's a massive win for our faction - but lose your own faction leader at any point and that's your game over.

As I mentioned then, there's an awful lot of depth, and even if a quick hands-off look wasn't really enough to get a grip on how it all tied up (honestly, I'd have loved to have seen a bit more of that sort of static-versus-dynamic, systems-playing-off-each-other thing with the environments, traits and relationships all synching up in practise), the potential is still vast, and incredibly impressive. As Brenda Romero's put it herself, games can absolutely sing when the mechanic is the message, and beyond the gorgeous, noiry, rain-slicked rendering of prohibition-era Chicago on the surface, it feels like Empire of Sin could pull together an incredible sense of place with just the systems themselves. One to watch.

 

[Aemar]

Negroes and women as recruitable combat characters instead of distinguished gentlemen from the 20s Chicago, aptly nicknamed ''Machine Gun'', ''The Enforcer'', ''The Fox'', ''Joe Batters'', ''Mad Bomber'', ''Tony the Scourge'', ''The Murder Twins'', etc.

 

[thesheeep]

They are obviously not trying to make it historically accurate, but inspired by the time, so I really don't see the problem in having mixed races and genders here.
As long as the gameplay is right, who gives a fuck what color/gender your soldiers are? It is irrelevant.

 

[m_s0]

Oh no, the fantasy of this video game is going to account for the fact that not everyone playing it is Jimmy Cagney.

Whatever will we do.

"Gangster: Total War" has a good ring to it, but... come on.

 

[Infinitron]

African-American gangsters were actually a real thing in 1930s NYC and Chicago. They specialized in gambling rackets and were typically subordinate to local Italian mafia bosses. I guess it's unlikely they would be fighting together though.

 

[Aemar]

They are obviously not trying to make it historically accurate, but inspired by the time, so I really don't see the problem in having mixed races and genders here.

Why is that everything pertaining to entertainment today must be forced through a soy filter at all costs?

who gives a fuck what color/gender your soldiers are?

Definitely not Romero.

African-American gangsters were actually a real thing in 1930s NYC and Chicago. They specialized in gambling rackets and were typically subordinate to local Italian mafia bosses. I guess it's unlikely they would be fighting together though.

Their presence and importance was of little significance in the grand scheme of things in the 1920s and 1930s, especially after they lost their numbers rackets in the black communities.

 

[thesheeep]

They are obviously not trying to make it historically accurate, but inspired by the time, so I really don't see the problem in having mixed races and genders here.

Why is that everything pertaining to entertainment today must be forced through a soy filter at all costs?

Why does the presence of women and people of color in a game that does not strive for any perfect historical accuracy make you think that it would be?
If this was in KC: D then sure, I'd agree, but in this game? Come on. I'm actually kinda glad we'll not only see some Italian male stereotypes sitting in a bar too smokey to see anything...
It doesn't exactly look like the kind of game that will lecture you about women's rights, racism or anything of the like in dialogues

You're honestly coming off as one of those people for whom the mere presence of anything non-white-male playable in a game is an offence in and off itself.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Meh, as long as they put ol' Joey Bananas in it.

 

[vota DC]

"Gangster: Total War" has a good ring to it, but... come on.

Better title. Empire of sins doesn't fit it unless you can help Lula to escape from brasilian prison and seduce everyone.

 

[m_s0]

My point is, it's unlikely they're able to afford a game of that scope, and what a headline like that is doing is throwing the game under the bus more than anything else.

At best we're going to get a cheapo Jagged Alliance. Which I wouldn't mind, honestly, if made well. I miss that Sir-Tech touch.

 

[Nutria]

I just think there's a problem when you could never dream of making a game where white American men are ever treated sympathetically, but you can make this. Like you could make a game about a Republican lawman out in the old west in the late 1800s who loves and respects black people because God told him to, and it could be completely historically accurate. But Twitter would cancel that immediately.

Instead we get this really sick inversion of reality, where the most deeply racist and exploitative groups like the Mafia are held up as heroes. I don't mind media being ahistorical. I'm not gonna shit my pants because Indiana Jones isn't accurate about Nazis being able to dig up stuff in Egypt in the 1930s or whatever. But I do mind when media is absolutely to the opposite of historical reality, like if they had made Hitler be the good guy in it.

 

[Aemar]

Why does the presence of women and people of color in a game that does not strive for any perfect historical accuracy make you think that it would be?
If this was in KC: D then sure, I'd agree, but in this game? Come on. I'm actually kinda glad we'll not only see some Italian male stereotypes sitting in a bar too smokey to see anything...

I see nothing wrong with my initial observation, it's not like Romero & co would give a shit about it and redesign the whole thing altogether. This game should be about extremely violent Italians, Jews and Irish people vying for the city itself and murdering each other in the process. Unless you don't have a problem settling for the popamole, non-accurate approach, where your crew would be comprised of black banjo players, women, retirees with walking frames, children, dogs, cats, etc.

It doesn't exactly look like the kind of game that will lecture you about women's rights, racism or anything of the like in dialogues

Given the main characters you'll never know that until you actually play the game...

You're honestly coming off as one of those people for whom the mere presence of anything non-white-male playable in a game is an offence in and off itself.

Much appreciated, thanks a lot!

 

[thesheeep]

I just think there's a problem when you could never dream of making a game where white American men are ever treated sympathetically, but you can make this.

Most games with white American men treat them sympathetically. Hell, in most games (with a setting that makes it possible) you either play one or one accompanies you in some way, etc. That really hasn't changed.
You can also find lots of positive portrayals of white men in other media as well.
What has changed is that now other groups are treated favourably as well, and that also means taking some spotlight away.
Which is a good thing, because believe it or not, most people are not actually white 'Murican men.

And then of course, you have agenda-driven nonsense like the new Batwoman series and some other stuff, but those actually are a minority. They just get way more coverage than they should, positive AND negative, cause the topic gets clicks.

Like you could make a game about a Republican lawman out in the old west in the late 1800s who loves and respects black people because God told him to, and it could be completely historically accurate. But Twitter would cancel that immediately.

So... you're saying that a Replublican could only love black people due to a divine intervention? Just kidding.
The perpetually offended Twitter ragemobs rage at everything, it really doesn't matter to anyone except Kotaku and other websites inside that little activism bubble - but they have no real influence as sales numbers show. They are just really annoying.
The bigger problem with your idea would probably be the religious connotation, if that played a major role.

Instead we get this really sick inversion of reality, where the most deeply racist and exploitative groups like the Mafia are held up as heroes.

Well, this is kind of normal for games with protagonists that are part of the Mafia/Yakuza/etc. isn't it?
Nobody would like to play a despicable human being (well, almost nobody), I assume.

This game should be about extremely violent Italians, Jews and Irish people vying for the city itself and murdering each other in the process.

If the game was trying to be historically accurate.
It doesn't try to be.

It's not trying to be historically accurate any more than a setting like for example Shadowrun would (imagine that SR was not scifi but set in some fictional 1920s). I don't really see the difference between elves and dwarves running around in a Mafia noire style and this setting which is seemingly devoid of the historical racism and sexism of the time.
This game is fiction, not history. Get it into your thick heads.

This is not like Genderfield V, where developers claim historical accuracy and at the same time engage in serious historical revisionism to "empower women" by writing (white) men out of their own historical story.

That you think any game with a 1920s Mafia theme should be historically accurate is just nonsense.
No setting or topic has to be that.

Given the main characters you'll never know that until you actually play the game...

True, it might become the first Mafia/Gangsters style game that will make all its missions about saving minorities and rectifying social injustices.
I just highly doubt it.

 

[Aemar]

This game is fiction, not history. Get it into your thick heads.

Have fun with your popamole setting then.

 

[thesheeep]

This game is fiction, not history. Get it into your thick heads.

Have fun with your popamole setting then.

We will.
If the game won't suck.

 

[Morblot]

I'm worried about the numbers I see in that screenshot. Your guys seem to have up to 150 HP and a gun only does 33 to 38 points of damage. HP bloat does not an interesting game make.

One of the things that kept me on the edge when playing UFO: Enemy Unknown was that often one hit was enough to kill your soldiers. You had to play it carefully and still there was often losses, which of course caused other issues going forward, etc, you know what I mean.

That screenshot instead immediately made me think of StarCrawlers and its endless fights to slowly whittle down enemies' health bars with no chance of you losing.

 

[thesheeep]

I'm worried about the numbers I see in that screenshot. Your guys seem to have up to 150 HP and a gun only does 33 to 38 points of damage. HP bloat does not an interesting game make.

One of the things that kept me on the edge when playing UFO: Enemy Unknown was that often one hit was enough to kill your soldiers. You had to play it carefully and still there was often losses, which of course caused other issues going forward, etc, you know what I mean.

That screenshot instead immediately made me think of StarCrawlers and its endless fights to slowly whittle down enemies' health bars with no chance of you losing.

I think you are jumping to conclusions a bit here. First of all, what we see here are not necessarily final numbers (just look at the 100/150 of your guys, seems a bit too static to me to be final, but who knows).
It also doesn't tell you how much damage your enemies deal, what difficulty this is, etc. etc. Lots of unkown factors here.

What it does tell you is that the enemy is expected to lose roughly 50% of his HP with one attack. I would expect the same/similar results when they shoot you.
Personally, I think one-hit kills are just plain bad design if not communicated properly. They can come out of nowhere, and then it doesn't feel like you made mistake but just got very unlucky. 2-3 hit deaths are certainly threatening enough.
I'm also not sure if soldiers in this game will be more like the original X-COM, where soldiers were pretty easily replacable (making deaths less of an issue), especially once training facilities were up - or more like the recent XCOMs, where you really, really, really did not want to lose any soldier.

Could also be like Vigilantes, in which people never really die (I think?), but their recovery costs can easily make you go bankrupt if you don't watch it. Death is not the only incentive to make players care about being careful.

 

[Morblot]

I think you are jumping to conclusions a bit here.

Isn't it the way of the Codex?

 

[thesheeep]

I think you are jumping to conclusions a bit here.

Isn't it the way of the Codex?

Of course.
As is pointing out when you do it.
We're all playing our assigned roles here.

 

[thesecret1]

Given the main characters you'll never know that until you actually play the game...

True, it might become the first Mafia/Gangsters style game that will make all its missions about saving minorities and rectifying social injustices.
I just highly doubt it.

I take it you haven't heard of Mafia 3, then.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Given the main characters you'll never know that until you actually play the game...

True, it might become the first Mafia/Gangsters style game that will make all its missions about saving minorities and rectifying social injustices.
I just highly doubt it.

I take it you haven't heard of Mafia 3, then.

That had good music at least.

 

[Mustawd]

Muh Women. Muh black ppl. Dude stfu and focus on the gameplay.

What are you? Gay?

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Dude stfu and focus on the gameplay.

What gameplay?
So far we've got some (not so promising as systems are concerned) bullshots and Molyneuxian promises.

 

[Adidas-Clichèd Cringe]

I didn't mind that Jagged Alliance had loads of female mercs, and as this game isn't claiming to be historically accurate, I don't really care how realistic the game is with its gender or race. Besides, I do remember reading something about Stephanie St. Clair, so having both women and black people in positions of power isn't a total fantasy at least.

Edit:
https://themobmuseum.org/notable_names/stephanie-st-clair/