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Endless Legend, fantasyland trying to fix Endless Space's flaws

Zeriel

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2012
Messages
13,463
Civilization 5 is this brilliant game where even if you play on the highest difficulty, the micromanagement isn't any higher than any other difficulty, you beat the AI by outsmarting them.

:what:
Yup that's today's codex.

Tomorrow they would release Dragon Age II, and then you'd see things.
What? Civ5 consists of mostly playing tall no matter the difficulty. And the AI will always outproduce you on higher difficulties, you have to outsmart it.

The fact you can beat an infinite number of AI units with a few grunts + artillery because the AI doesn't understand 1UPT is, in my opinion, a glaring design flaw, not something to be admired.

Beating AI in strategy games should always involve outsmarting it on some level, but what happens in Civ V really isn't "outsmarting" so much as exploiting. It's like bugging out the pathfinding of some monster in BG2 to the point where it stops attacking and then calling it "clever gameplay".
 

Renegen

Arcane
Joined
Jun 5, 2011
Messages
4,062
And when you conquer cities in Civ5 you don't use overwhelming force to do it? I remember in Civ 4 where I would use terrain bonuses and moving through forest to just decimate the enemy, because of the way your doomstack prioritized its strongest members for defense you could destroy forces 3x larger than you easily. Remember the good old days of juggling 90%+ attacks? Yeah fuck that.

All Civ games had exploitable army AI, except in Civ5 the game is built around encircling the enemy with overwhelming force and unless you're really well positioned, you won't survive. Most defense tactics in fact rely on using your city as your damage soak because it regenerates every turn, and it's why everyone goes Traditionalism for its +50% city damage bonus. Surviving the AI onslaught is hard and requires very careful city placement and having to understand diplomacy really well, and it doesn't even guarantee anything, because the AI will just get another victory condition. Your complaints seem like vanilla Civ5 complaints, I played that version too, I was angry. But since then Civ5 has turned out to be one of the best designed TBS games and playing inferior 4x games just highlights that.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
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Messages
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-09-21-amplitudes-rules-for-early-access-development

Amplitude's rules for Early Access development
"Don't be afraid to tell people: that's not in the vision."

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By Christian Donlan Published 21/09/2014

There is a problem in Hollywood - and wherever expensive vessels get launched onto unpredictable seas - that you might want to call the Awkward Problem. And it is, inevitably, an awkward problem. The root of the issue is very probably the sad fact that money and taste rarely exist in the same place for very long, so whenever a big studio, say, nears the completion of a costly project, it starts to get nervous about the decisions that have been made along the way.

After that, of course, it starts to seek feedback. In principle, this is a laudable idea. The studio will organise advance screenings in shopping malls where punters are invited in and quizzed on what they're shown. And the quizzing? This is where things can become awkward. Say you're a writer or a director and you want to show the audience that your bad guy is a really bad guy. You might put a scene in your film that makes it entirely clear just how bad a guy he actually is, in fact. And, sure enough, the scene might make people feel awkward - which, remember, is exactly what it's meant to do. But when that awkwardness turns up as feedback, the context can be hard to grasp, and the suits might register nothing more than:Oh, this scene is a problem. Then they might take it out. And then the whole edifice might slowly start to crumble.

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If you're interested in Hollywood awkwardness, Bruce Campbell discusses the previews problem in his autobiography, which is a right lovely book.

I'm fascinated by this problem, partly because it seems so entirely human in its fretfulness, in its herdish tendencies, but also because video games have recently taken to feedback in an unprecedented way, and this kind of community feedback promises to do great things for the form. That's the sales pitch, at least - the sales pitch for a route to market that's increasingly known as the Early Access route. Buy the game now for cheap (or cheapish), give us your money and your feedback, and let's land this sucker together!Wonderful stuff in principle, stuff with the potential to genuinely transform the way games are made. But, even if the developers are really committed to listening to the players, there's often a flipside. What happens when the design breaks as the audience prods away at it? What happens when the developers flat out lose their way in amidst all the chatter?

What happens when things start to get awkward?

Searching for an answer to this question led me to that hotel just outside of Victoria Station that I can never remember the name of. It was a few months back, and the timing seemed auspicious. Earlier that week I'd been reading posts on the Godus Steam forum, and I'd come across a thread started by a developer at 22 Cans who had asked a simple, understandable, and incredibly depressing question. "Hi everyone!" he began. "This thread is meant to be a somewhat informal and casual exercise to see what page we're all on as not just a community but as players. Given that many in the community feel that there's still progress to be made on the game from the perspective of it being a desktop title, what do you feel needs to happen in order to make GODUS into a game that stands up as a PC game?"

It's still rather jarring to see that written down. What do you actually want from this game we've been trying to make for a year? it asks. What do you think we're missing? What don't we understand about our own game, our own community?

Godus is an extreme example, perhaps, but so is Amplitude, the studio that brought me to that hotel outside Victoria. This Paris-based outfit has been making Early Access games since before Valve had even coined the term and opened the channel. Founded by a collection of developers drawn from places like Ubisoft, who all wanted to make games that were rich and personable in a way that only games targeted at a niche audience can be, the team built its development structure around an idea called Games2Gether.

Games2Gether is a platform on which designers can share the game design documents for projects that are in development and solicit and action feedback while that development is underway. The feedback isn't always positive, but it's generally pretty constructive, and alongside throwing in ideas and criticism, the community regularly votes on the elements that go into a game - everything from the Steam Achievements to character art to how a unit might behave in battle.

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If this picture doesn't do it for you - and it definitely does it for me - 4X may not be your thing.

It seems to work. Since the launch of Games2Gether, Amplitude's shipped the 4X game Endless Space and it has also shipped its expansions - most of which are composed of ideas and fixes suggested by the community. Just this week, a follow-up, Endless Legend, leaves Early Access too. It's another 4X game, which means it's another dense and detailed turn-based strategy title that starts you off exploring a huge map and ends as you grind out every last resource and best your foes through a variety of different means. 4X games are intricate, and developing a 4X seems like a particularly exciting challenge for the Early Access approach, given the complexity, the interconnectivity, and the sheer density of bits and pieces these games involve. It's like crowd-sourcing the final design for a jumbo jet. Actually, it's like designing and building the jet while it's in the air, and then landing it safely.

And yet, Amplitude's now done it twice, and has a third game on the go - the gorgeous roguelike/tower defence hybrid Dungeon of the Endless. Getting these games finished is a neat trick in itself, but to get them finished with their strange, witty, colourful sense of character intact seems genuinely astonishing. No awkwardness here! So I wondered: what's Amplitude's secret for developing distinctive games alongside a community? Better yet, what are its rules?

The rules, it transpires, are pretty straightforward - as are the reasons for implementing them in the first place. When I ask Amplitude's COO Romain de Waubert for a single reason as to why his company's so devoted to building its games while negotiating with its community, he gives me an answer that is hard to argue with. "Usually, when a 4X game comes out," he laughs, "if you don't have Early Access, you can always be 100 per cent sure that the AI doesn't know how to play."

He nods to his colleague Max von Knorring, Amplitude's director of marketing and communication. Von Knorring's job title suggests a PR role, but he's also the architect of Games2Gether itself. "This AI problem is always the case," von Knorring agrees. "If you look at the games like this you've played in the past, for the first few months it's always so easy to beat the AI, because the game shaped up two weeks before shipping." "The good thing with Early Access is that you get that feedback early," de Waubert concludes. "And I won't tell you our AI's Deep Blue or anything, but it will be way more solid because of all that feedback."

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What's amazing about Endless Legend is how a game that has emerged through collaboration retains such a powerful sense of its own identity.

Solidity is one of the key benefits of Early Access development, according to Amplitude, but only if you approach things in the right way. And the right way, for this studio, begins well before the game design is first unveiled. "You have to start early," says von Knorring. "You start early on giving the game design documents to the community, of course. But before even that, we have a vision between ourselves that is first expressed in those design documents."

"We have to have a vision, which is on paper, and which is clear to us," agrees de Waubert. "Yes, this sounds obvious, but by doing this, we can set the boundaries. If you don't have any boundaries or clear boundaries, it's madness."

Writers often call this process protecting the spine - knowing which creative battles you can lose and which creative battles you absolutely have to win. It helps, of course, if you leave nobody in doubt as to which is which. "We have another analogy, which is the tree," says von Knorring. "The game design document is the trunk, and then you have all of the branches that will come with the different feedback. And the bigger roots are the dev team roots and the smaller roots are the VIPs and the community."

And once a developer has their document? At that point, de Waubert argues that it's crucial to scale up slowly. "I think you can't go wide directly," he says. "Test the vision for the game with a smaller group. And they will bounce your foundations. You will see if those foundations are solid or not. And if by that point you can fix where things are not so solid, if they can't break it any more? If you have a pretty good group, who are good at breaking things, then when you go out to a bigger community, first of all you will be pretty solid, and you'll be able to have the communication going in a direction that's constructive. That's things you can do. And then you also have the first group of people helping you to keep people on board." "So if there's a guy coming out with this idea and that idea and it's completely crazy," offers von Knorring, "the community will then say, 'Check the game design document, you're out of scope.'"

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Dungeon of the Endless is proof that the Early Access route can support unusual games. I'd be fascinated to see what happened if Amplitude launched a game that was really going to evolve dramatically based on community feedback.

Building a community like this is not easy, of course, and de Waubert admits that Amplitude had a head start. "From the beginning, we knew we wanted to contact some of the guys that we had identified on different communities that seemed like people who fit the kind of games that we do," he says. "People where we'd like to know what they had to say. We started with these guys - about 30 of them - and with these guys we had to make them understand who we were. Having made 10 or so games before, some of which they'd liked? That was the beginning. That was the start of trust. But it's true that when you come from nowhere and you're just a student and you ask people to come and be a community for you, it's very difficult."

Even with such a strong foundation, a good back catalogue isn't enough by itself. Trust has to be maintained, and that's exceptionally hard given the strange, seemingly counter-intuitive ways that games are often put together. "As a community member, even if you choose just one community to be active in, you have little time and you don't want this to go to waste," says de Waubert. "So you want to make sure that the time you invest there serves a purpose, and that somehow you have proof of it. That's what you have to work on as a developer in Early Access. How can I make them trust me, and how can I show them that the time they spend here links to something that happens?"

The solution? The solution is transparency, the final piece of the community development puzzle. It's little wonder, after all, that so many Early Access teams fall out with their audiences after going dark for prolonged periods without first explaining why. "Pure transparency is very important," says von Knorring. "I started working on Games2Gether even before joining the team. It's in the DNA of Amplitude, meaning that all the dev planning and all the backlogs of the dev team, everything is done to make sure we have time to listen to the community, to implement their feedback. There's one thing we do that is very surprising in this industry, for example. Whenever we hire someone, we tell them, 'You have to go on the forums, you have to talk to the community.' Usually if you're a developer, you don't talk to the community, or you might have a dev blog and it will be proofread by like 10 different people before it's approved."

"You have to constantly offer the community a sense of progress," concludes de Waubert. "And what you deliver? You have to show them the connection. This is what we have on the forums, What we do every week is update all the feedback we get. That goes in a thread: all the big new stuff that hasn't been said before. We have colour keys, too. Green, say, is the stuff that fits our vision - we'll do everything we can to make this stuff happen. Then there's the stuff that's kind of our vision, maybe we'll modify that to fit."

And the rest? "Don't be afraid to tell people: that's not in the vision, we'll never do it," laughs de Waubert. "We don't say it's bad, we don't say we don't like it, it's just not the game."
 

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,185
Current version is 0.5.4 so it's still long way to go until it would be finished version. There is no point in complaining about unfinished early access versions.

Still a long way to go ? you psoted this 2 of august , now the 21 of september game is released. I was right again sadly, i am always right.
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
22,699
Are they idiots? That looks like a rushed development, I'd wait few months if they would release an expansion.
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
22,699
No, this have some interesting ideas. Endless space was crap from the beginning with exception of combat, which while it didn't end well, at least they tried to do something new. Economy was what killed it.
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
22,699
I'm not watching release sites, I'm not watching release sites, I'm not watching release sites. Often enough. I didn't look only for week and now. How can I download all this stuff. Both Endless legend and Wasteland 2, I don't even have space on my two HDs.
 

Supermedo

Augur
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Messages
276
I got the game and I'm having fun with it. Other nations are killing each other while I'm raiding their ruins and leveling up my hero and now she can one shot enemies, I wish if the other nations leader talk, denounce and trade with me like Civ 5.
 

Nael

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
11,384
Location
Indy
I got the game and I'm having fun with it. Other nations are killing each other while I'm raiding their ruins and leveling up my hero and now she can one shot enemies, I wish if the other nations leader talk, denounce and trade with me like Civ 5.

Agreed. I don't understand why the AI is so blase. It was one of the things that I thought Endless Space did right. The AI was unpredictable and generally very "smart" about how it reacted and interacted with the player. In Endless Legend they seem to either just attack with no particular reason or do absolutely nothing.
 

Zeriel

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2012
Messages
13,463
I got the game and I'm having fun with it. Other nations are killing each other while I'm raiding their ruins and leveling up my hero and now she can one shot enemies, I wish if the other nations leader talk, denounce and trade with me like Civ 5.

Agreed. I don't understand why the AI is so blase. It was one of the things that I thought Endless Space did right. The AI was unpredictable and generally very "smart" about how it reacted and interacted with the player. In Endless Legend they seem to either just attack with no particular reason or do absolutely nothing.

Probably people complained in Endless Space they were too brutal (and they cheated a lot more than here). In Endless Legend it's the complete opposite, even on the hardest difficulty they do so very little. It also has that holdover from Endless Space where just about every game only one AI congregates power while the others are never near that one player.

Doesn't help that the factions are currently in a place where 1 or 2 are miles above everyone else, so even if the AI were good most of them would still suck due to being placed with bad factions (i.e, everyone but Vaulters/Roving Clans).
 
Last edited:

Monkeyfinger

Cipher
Joined
Aug 5, 2004
Messages
778
It also has that holdover from Endless Space where just about every game only one AI congregates power while the others are never near that one player.

In 4x games that's usually the consequence of having a lot of variability in starting location, especially through rare/unique tiles. Starting with 1 godlike tile in your capital causes a huge snowball.
 

Cyberarmy

Love fool
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Feb 7, 2013
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Smyrna - Scalanouva
Divinity: Original Sin 2
I got the game and I'm having fun with it. Other nations are killing each other while I'm raiding their ruins and leveling up my hero and now she can one shot enemies, I wish if the other nations leader talk, denounce and trade with me like Civ 5.

We started to play this yesterday and all other leaders did was mocking us for a long time :(
Till we started to feast on their corpses and raze their homes, FOR THE SWARM!!! (Dat Arachnid race <3 )

I'm kinda liking this game, soundtrack and art is really good. It felt a bit easy though, especially after equipped my swarm with T2 special armor and weapons.
I'm going to play with magi next time and assimilate minotaurs, hydras and such. Glorious return of the HoMM3 dungeon castle!
 

KoolNoodles

Arcane
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Messages
3,545
I got the game and I'm having fun with it. Other nations are killing each other while I'm raiding their ruins and leveling up my hero and now she can one shot enemies, I wish if the other nations leader talk, denounce and trade with me like Civ 5.

We started to play this yesterday and all other leaders did was mocking us for a long time :(
Till we started to feast on their corpses and raze their homes, FOR THE SWARM!!! (Dat Arachnid race <3 )

I'm kinda liking this game, soundtrack and art is really good. It felt a bit easy though, especially after equipped my swarm with T2 special armor and weapons.
I'm going to play with magi next time and assimilate minotaurs, hydras and such. Glorious return of the HoMM3 dungeon castle!

What difficulty? Impossible is probably the right setting for Civ/4x veterans, though still needs some work(various nation AIs compete at vastly different levels, maybe it's their scripting).
 

Cyberarmy

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Divinity: Original Sin 2
What difficulty? Impossible is probably the right setting for Civ/4x veterans, though still needs some work(various nation AIs compete at vastly different levels, maybe it's their scripting).

On impossible, I'm going to try Endless diff.tonight and another victory type than total destruction. Not diplomacy though, AI is somewhat had strange behaviour yesterday,
 

Cyberarmy

Love fool
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Divinity: Original Sin 2
Played on endless yesterday night, took elves (BLEH!!!) and went for wonder victory.
First bits were really hard when minor factions tried to buttrape me, but after assimilating them and getting 2, 6 unit army with tier 2 titanium weapons game really become easy. Other factions ignored me mostly because they were worried of my army strength.
After that , it was smooth sailing. Only problem I got was about resources, a main quest weapon need that green metal(forgot its name already ...) and I had none inside my borders. Also my neighbours were not harvesting it (porbably behind me tech-wise) so I had to resort marketplace upgrades...

Even with many minor factions game has really low unit variety. They want to add variety via weapons and armors but after using same archers and infantry for 300 turns I really want to see some diversity, at least some apperance change for core units...
 

Eyeball

Arcane
Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Messages
2,541
Been playing this for a few games. I am astounded at how mechanically interesting it's turned out to be - every faction plays very differently from each other and there are lots of excellent little mechanisms in place such as the resource system, hero governorship ability and the ability to tweak out your units with better gear.

That being said, it desperately needs an AI patch. I'm playing at high difficulties and have very little problems steamrolling the AI which quite often doesn't even seem to research the tech allowing them to make stacks with more than 4 units in them. Also needs to have a hard look at minor factions, because at the moment they're either cannon fodder or easy questgivers, neither of which is very interesting at all.

I recommend it heartily - if they up the AI a bit.
 

Hobo Elf

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Platypus Planet
Devs commented last night on the steam forums that they are looking into fixing the AI. I concur that disregarding the AI, the game is rather unique and good. It has pretty god tier presentation as well. The art style, the music, the way the GUI's are designed: it's simply fantastic imo. Combat is much better now than it was during EA, mechanically, if only the AI was more aggressive and lethal. It's not often to see enemies wear down one of my troops and then turn around and attack someone else when my unit is one attack short of dying.
 
Joined
Oct 4, 2010
Messages
1,452
Interesting decision to go with a futuristic UI in a fantasy 4x.
And by interesting i mean stupid, since it probably won't sit well with a lot of people.
 

Hobo Elf

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Interesting decision to go with a futuristic UI in a fantasy 4x.
And by interesting i mean stupid, since it probably won't sit well with a lot of people.

It's a really good UI. Very clean, very slick, easy to understand what is what. Functionality above all else. Also,
the game is a sequel to Endless Space and Dungeon of the Endless, both are Sci-Fi games. A lot of the factions have strong sci-fi elements as well, especially the Vaulters who were a space faring race that crashed on the planet. So the GUI goes well with the theme of the game as well.
 
Joined
Oct 4, 2010
Messages
1,452
Interesting decision to go with a futuristic UI in a fantasy 4x.
And by interesting i mean stupid, since it probably won't sit well with a lot of people.

It's a really good UI. Very clean, very slick, easy to understand what is what. Functionality above all else.

Sure, usability is king, but a slight styling would have done wonders imo. It doesn't mesh well with the rest of the game.
Anyway, it wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me if i was interested, but i can imagine it would to some.
 

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