Engagement System Questions

[Sensuki]

Yeah well, Anthony Davis I ain't got nothing against you man, I know you love Obsidian, you like the mechanic and you enjoy it. I don't have a problem with that. You asked why we don't like it and several of us are telling you.

I can understand why people like it - some people like the aggro mechanic part of it, some people really want movement in combat to be punished, for whatever reason but usually because they like turn-based games with AoOs or have some vendetta against kiting.

There are lots of us though that don't like it. Can't speak for the actual ones posting in the thread as Grunker dislikes it for different reasons to me and there's a lot of fence sitters in here but I and several others just have a different philosophy about how real-time with pause games should be designed. We enjoyed the IE games because it was crisp and felt like an RTS-RPG and we believe that freeform movement in combat is one of the true strengths of the RTwP genre. I like AoOs in turn-based - they make perfect sense there, but I think they're horrible in real-time games, they are not meant for it.

Most of all, this system is just not Infinity Engine, at all.

The system has had massive implementation issues and bugs over the course of development. I have discovered many exploits and bugs with the system. I did use one of those bugs to try and get it removed (in vain) but ever since, I've merely reported bugs with it. I haven't said jack shit about the mechanic on any forum for a while unless someone else has brought it up. Usually it's when people complain that units weren't sticky in the Infinity Engine games so they need engagement, which I think is simply untrue.

I also included a very comprehensive guide about how to play with engagement on youtube. I believe Shevek has seen it and he likes engagement, and he said it was a good video (from memory).

You were the one who posted the topic, not I.

 

[mutonizer]

Sensuki has a penchant for arrogance shameless self-indulgence, but come on man. It's the internet. There are more valuable targets for the odd nerdrage. Shameless as he is, Sensuki has a useful approach to feedback.

Yep, pretty awesome, but only if you understand and accept the obsessive compulsive behavior that fuels it...

I am mad! You go EVERYWHERE, to numerous forums across the internet, pouring poison into anyone who will listen, many of those listeners haven't even PLAYED the game, about this one issue, over and over again. That's so not cool. I'm not defensive at all, I'm pissed off. All this time I thought it was because there were issues with it - now it sounds like the only issue is that you can't beat the fights without casualties?
I apologize for getting mad at you, I should be better about it, because you are cool, but man. Tell me I misunderstood you! Please!

And that's what happens when one forget about it...

Sensuki and almost everyone on here was having a conversation about it, just like I asked. I fucked up and got mad. I'm sorry.

Dude, this IS the Codex...If there's a place where you can go on rampage, it has to be this place.

 

[Infinitron]

Well, I think everyone can agree that the reason you don't want to take disengagement attacks is that it reduces your health and the only reason you'll take one voluntarily is if the benefits outweigh the positives, right?

Some people mistakenly proc them, some people misjudge the cost benefit analysis.

It would certainly be better if the game's AI and encounter design was effective at generating situations where disengagement was something you were constantly considering. For example, enemy groups where one relatively non-dangerous enemy pins your characters down while the others wreak havoc.

Ideally, you should constantly be thinking "I really want out of here. I really want out of here." As opposed to always saying "Meh, I'll just remain here until the rest of my party has gotten around to helping me get rid of this guy."

 

[Anthony Davis]

Tell me I misunderstood you! Please!

I think you need to go back and actually read what I was replying to. The discussion went off-topic. I replied to Hobo Elf who said that he was having trouble with shades. He said that he either wiped encounters or he lost, agreeing with my statement earlier in the thread that the game revolves around good initial positioning and he said that if he got that right - he won. I agreed. You quoted me saying that was an unreasonable response (Why, I'm not sure - because it didn't have anything to do with our back and forth).

I then explained to you that I get enjoyment from winning encounters as clearly as I can. If one of my party members goes down in a fight, I will reload because I consider that a mistake. Yes, I play like this. This has nothing to do with engagement, this is just how I enjoy playing. I am a power gamer. I've played competitive games. I enjoy system mastery. I like improving at things, figuring things out. In my opinion this entirely reasonable. I know how to play with engagement. I know how to use it to my advantage. I know how to abuse it. I don't struggle playing with it. I understand how it works, I know exactly how to use it. I take it you haven't watched any of my recent videos on youtube either.

And then you cracked it at me for explaining that I get enjoyment from doing this, but probably not for that reason - I think you did misunderstand. It obviously grates on you, but I'm not sure how that reflects on the position of the company. To be honest I'm a little bit disappointed, thoguh. I don't enjoy engagement. I never will. I vocally state that I think it's a bad system. I think that the others here will speak for me that it's a small drop in the pond compared to the other positive things I say about the game and I do for the game.

I know I said I was walking away - but I just can't stay away from you guys.

First of all Sensuki, I should not have lost my temper, so again, I apologize for getting angry.


On some level I suspected that there was nothing to be done to please you on this issue, or to even meet you halfway. I guess I wanted to keep trying and it just led to built up frustration. This is the first time that I can recall where you have said that you will NEVER like it. I know now not to waste your time on discussing this anymore with you. That's not meant to sound petulant - for example, don't waste MY time trying to tell me how much I should love sports games, it isn't going to happen. People have tastes, I get it.



In IE games, going down was death, so I understand where the desire to play perfectly comes from. Reloads were a common thing in IE play throughs.

I think someone's *personal* view on how you play a game will definitely affect their expectations. I do think your personal taste for how you play IE games has colored your view on PoE - but no one even played the IE games the same way - not even the hivemind.

 

[Grunker]

Not to sound like a whiny cunt, but if you wanted to have a conversation with Sensuki only you could have sent him a PM

I guess in the end I should blame the 'tron for making me waste all that time yelling on the internet.

 

[Jaesun]

I think the bigger problem is Josh made a fairly good combat system..... for a turn-based game. But PoE is RTWP....

 

[Grunker]

Man, this is a tempest in a teapot.

Engagement is the game's biggest systemic flaw currently, I think it is worth a discussion.

I think the bigger problem is Josh made a fairly good combat system..... for a turn-based game. But PoE is RTWP....

Engagement is a very significant part of why it feels that way.

 

[Anthony Davis]

Well, I think everyone can agree that the reason you don't want to take disengagement attacks is that it reduces your health and the only reason you'll take one voluntarily is if the benefits outweigh the positives, right?

Some people mistakenly proc them, some people misjudge the cost benefit analysis.

On this, I agree 100%.

 

[Anthony Davis]

Not to sound like a whiny cunt, but if you wanted to have a conversation with Sensuki only you could have sent him a PM

I guess in the end I should blame the 'tron for making me waste all that time yelling on the internet.

I know Sensuki is the expert, but I wanted to see if there was any other different opinions on what people think is wrong with the system.

 

[Grunker]

Not to sound like a whiny cunt, but if you wanted to have a conversation with Sensuki only you could have sent him a PM

I guess in the end I should blame the 'tron for making me waste all that time yelling on the internet.

I know Sensuki is the expert, but I wanted to see if there was any other different opinions on what people think is wrong with the system.

My point was you asked for opinions and since I see the problem from a different perspective than Sensuki I spend a lot of time defining that perspective, yet you p. much ignored it and had a private convo with Sens, making me angry at the lost words typed in the sweat of my brow... like tears in the rain.

 

[Anthony Davis]

Not to sound like a whiny cunt, but if you wanted to have a conversation with Sensuki only you could have sent him a PM

I guess in the end I should blame the 'tron for making me waste all that time yelling on the internet.

I know Sensuki is the expert, but I wanted to see if there was any other different opinions on what people think is wrong with the system.

To follow up, I started to reply to both you and Darth Roxor - but I'm at work and I ended up throwing both of those posts away when work came up. By the time I got back, the thread had moved on.

 

[Sensuki]

On some level I suspected that there was nothing to be done to please you on this issue, or to even meet you halfway. I guess I wanted to keep trying and it just led to built up frustration. This is the first time that I can recall where you have said that you will NEVER like it. I know now not to waste your time on discussing this anymore with you. That's not meant to sound petulant - for example, don't waste MY time trying to tell me how much I should love sports games, it isn't going to happen. People have tastes, I get it.

In IE games, going down was death, so I understand where the desire to play perfectly comes from. Reloads were a common thing in IE play throughs.

I think someone's *personal* view on how you play a game will definitely affect their expectations. I do think your personal taste for how you play IE games has colored your view on PoE - but no one even played the IE games the same way - not even the hivemind.

No there's no reconciliation on the issue, unfortunately. I am against it at the philosophical and design level and I really think it's harmful to the tactical options in combat.

I do however accept that the system is in the game and I have helped to try and improve it. We also have a mod for those that don't like it, already available.

I know that not everyone played the IE games like me. I am expressing my opinion. However I think that people's disgruntlement with the IE combat was simply just not understanding it.

Everyone knows my opinion, so I'll let others say their piece about the issue.

Have you seen my beginner guide's to Pillars of Eternity?

Skip to 31:08 for Engagement

 

[mutonizer]

Engagement is the game's biggest systemic flaw currently, I think it is worth a discussion.

For you?

Don't mind discussing how to improve it, but at the core it's just two totally different playstyles clashing against each other on this issue, two different ideologies if you will. And you don't discuss ideologies, you don't debate ideologies, you fuck up the other one hard with a 2 ton hammer and once you're done with genocide, then you go on with yours. Well, that or you just mod it out

So unless Obsidian decides to get rid of engagement system totally (which I doubt), there's not point discussing anything but how to improve it, which clearly this thread is not going to do

 

[communard]

How to make a game utilizing RTWP that doesn't suck ass:

1. Do a bare-bones implementation of your combat system. No fancy stuff and very limited amount of buttons to press. Auto-attacks and one or two skills per character.
2. Make sure it feels responsive and fun to play WITHOUT pausing at all.
3. Add depth and options. More controllable characters, more buttons to press, skills and spells that change the conditions of the battlefield etc.

Congratulations your game is now fun and doesn't feel like a fucking chore to play.

 

[Grunker]

Not to sound like a whiny cunt, but if you wanted to have a conversation with Sensuki only you could have sent him a PM

I guess in the end I should blame the 'tron for making me waste all that time yelling on the internet.

I know Sensuki is the expert, but I wanted to see if there was any other different opinions on what people think is wrong with the system.

To follow up, I started to reply to both you and Darth Roxor - but I'm at work and I ended up throwing both of those posts away when work came up. By the time I got back, the thread had moved on.

Moved on neglecting the most valid criticism of engagement IMO. Or actually it hasn't, it's been quoted a couple of times on these last two pages, it's just the "defense" that need to chime in. Following points are still unanswered:

1) Engagement in larger encounters consistute a complex web of tethers - correct gameplay means pausing a carefully following each one. Like playing connect-the-dots. Not fun.

2)

The result is that any sensible player will make sure that all positioning is done in the first few seconds of combat, so that he won't have to move again. Ever. A player does that, he can ignore all the bullshit. Thus, the system frontloads initial decision-making to the detriment of on-the-fly fighting. My main beef with PoE so far is that I find myself quickly reloading fights if the first 4 or 5 seconds of it don't go as planned - because I know that all decisions I make subsequent to that opening space are much, much less essential as long as the beginning is right.

3)

The system underlines my core issue with combat so far. So much of it is designed by someone who said to himself, every step of the way, "man I would have rather designed a turn-based system." When you take control away from the player (like you do when you make a real-time game as opposed to a turn-based), you need to allow for larger margins of error. Pillars of Eternity by and large wants you to believe you have just as much control over its mechanics as you would have had were the game turn-based.

And my favourite games are RTwP, mind.

Engagement is the game's biggest systemic flaw currently, I think it is worth a discussion.

For you?

Don't mind discussing how to improve it, but at the core it's just two totally different playstyles clashing against each other on this issue, two different ideologies if you will.

Bullshit. My criticism of Engagement isn't a relativist question of taste, and if you replied directly to said criticism instead of to your own strawmen, that would be clear. I detest arguments based on viewpoint alone.

 

[Bubbles]

How to make a game utilizing RTWP that doesn't suck ass:

1. Do a bare-bones implementation of your combat system. No fancy stuff and very limited amount of buttons to press. Auto-attacks and one or two skills per character.
2. Make sure it feels responsive and fun to play WITHOUT pausing at all.
3. Add depth and options. More controllable characters, more buttons to press, skills and spells that change the conditions of the battlefield etc.

Congratulations your game is now fun and doesn't feel like a fucking chore to play.

You're describing a less complex version of Dragon Age Inquisition.

 

[Infinitron]

Grunker, keep in mind that you're not actually arguing with a Pillars of Eternity designer. Again, the best thing Anthony can do is pass a link to this thread to those who are.

 

[Grunker]

Grunker, keep in mind that you're not actually arguing with a Pillars of Eternity designer.

I know, I'm arguing with the guy who wrote the OP and asked for an honest discussion with the critics, then proceeded to have a private conversation with Sensuki

 

[Anthony Davis]

Not to sound like a whiny cunt, but if you wanted to have a conversation with Sensuki only you could have sent him a PM

I guess in the end I should blame the 'tron for making me waste all that time yelling on the internet.

I know Sensuki is the expert, but I wanted to see if there was any other different opinions on what people think is wrong with the system.

My point was you asked for opinions and since I see the problem from a different perspective than Sensuki I spend a lot of time defining that perspective, yet you p. much ignored it and had a private convo with Sens, making me angry at the lost words typed in the sweat of my brow... like tears in the rain.

For example in your post, you state that you believe the purpose was to:

1. eliminate kiting
2. create oppotunity for interesting tactical choices


I don't believe that is what its PURPOSE was. Its purpose, as I understand it was, to create the ability to stop mobs from running through your line and killing squishies.

Kiting - was what was done in IE if you couldn't get a mob to stick to a fighter and or you didn't have a hold monster spell or something similar to stop them. It was a result of not being able to stop a mob.
- On a side note, I have had to kite once or twice in PoE when I was too outnumbered for my melee classes to pick everyone one up and I didn't have an appropriate spell in my book.

Interesting Tactical Choices - even IE had tactical choices that became INTERESTING once you understood the mechanics and failures. Some people, like myself, understood enough of the mechanics to play and beat the game. Some people, like Sensuki understood and learned even more so that they could play the game like a master.


A lot of what I learned in the IE games has been applicable for *ME* in PoE, that's why I play on Hard.

 

[communard]

How to make a game utilizing RTWP that doesn't suck ass:

1. Do a bare-bones implementation of your combat system. No fancy stuff and very limited amount of buttons to press. Auto-attacks and one or two skills per character.
2. Make sure it feels responsive and fun to play WITHOUT pausing at all.
3. Add depth and options. More controllable characters, more buttons to press, skills and spells that change the conditions of the battlefield etc.

Congratulations your game is now fun and doesn't feel like a fucking chore to play.

You're describing a less complex version of Dragon Age Inquisition.

I haven't played DA:I but I'd take the RTwP implementation in both DA:O and DA2 over PoE any day as bad as those games are.

Also what part of "add depth" is so hard to understand. That's why you add a pause function to begin with. If all you do is press the AWESOME button on enemies why even give the player the opportunity to pause? If you need to pause to do the simplest shit in the game with any sort of precision and control the game shouldn't be real time to begin with.

 

[Anthony Davis]

Have you seen my beginner guide's to Pillars of Eternity?

Skip to 31:08 for Engagement

I'll start watching it, or at least listening to it right now. Hard to watch videos at work.

 

[Grunker]

^ even if you're right about the purpose (which iirc you aren't since very early Josh talked about AoOs and kiting), how does that negate #1, #2 and #3 which constitute the actual effect? Just write a post where you reply directly to each of those points already

Going to bed now, checking in in the morning.

 

[Trodat]

Engagement is the game's biggest systemic flaw currently, I think it is worth a discussion.

So unless Obsidian decides to get rid of engagement system totally (which I doubt), there's not point discussing anything but how to improve it, which clearly this thread is not going to do

92 average on Metacritic and 8.9 user average. Game is successful, can't remember seeing any "great game but the engagement system hinders the experience" -complains. There's no need for Josh to ditch the engagement system, unless he changes his mind about it, which I doubt.

 

[mutonizer]

Bullshit. My criticism of Engagement isn't a relativist question of taste, and if you replied directly to said criticism instead of to your own strawmen, that would be clear. I detest arguments based on viewpoint alone.

Sorry but I'm having issues discussing with someone who finds himself "[..]quickly reloading fights if the first 4 or 5 seconds of it don't go as planned." on the basis of his "constructive criticism", but as you can see, I actually looked.
You don't like that it makes combat statics, and makes initial positioning important, fine. That's "taste" and my taste is that's why PoE system is great compared to the bullshit combat that were IE games. So yea, that kinda makes my point that while there are some issues with the current system (as you said, pathfinding being one that messes up sometimes), the core of it is NOT constructive criticism and whatnot, it's concepts of "fun" and "RTwP" and "me me me me me me" and all that...ideologies, philosophies as Sensuki called it.

I do agree though that they need to fix that fucking pathfinding, so let's hug on that at least!

 

[Sensuki]

Engagement doesn't eliminate kiting. Neither does movement slowing recovery.