Engagement System Questions

[Jarpie]

Calm the fuck down guys, don't get your panties into the twist over some misunderstanding or something.

 

[Anthony Davis]

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Is anyone else reading this?

I'm sorry. I'm gonna walk away for a bit. It is entirely possible that I misunderstood something and reacted. I'm normally pretty calm on this board. Sensuki I know you work hard and I know you care - I know you do a kickass job on it. Maybe it's because of how you say it, maybe I'm an idiot (likely) but that just slipped through and got me.

Yeah, he's so poisonous he's been wasting hundreds of hours beta-testing the game.

I appreciate how hard he works, I do! I remark all the time how good he is at this.


Sensuki and almost everyone on here was having a conversation about it, just like I asked. I fucked up and got mad. I'm sorry.

 

[Grunker]

lol, didn't even see this:

Why? I consider it a personal failure.

You have to admit this is a bit extreme.

It's not. I want to beat all of the encounters without losing anyone.

But someone going down isn't losing them, that's the whole point of the health system.

Couldn't give a fig.

That's fucking extreme man and I'm not gonna be held hostage to this ridiculous standard.

What the fuck? This is my personal standard for me. I don't require anyone else to play like I do and it has nothing to do with anything in this thread. Don't understand why you guys are getting mad about it.

You're starting to get a little bit defensive.

I am mad! You go EVERYWHERE, to numerous forums across the internet, pouring poison into anyone who will listen, many of those listeners haven't even PLAYED the game, about this one issue, over and over again. That's so not cool. I'm not defensive at all, I'm pissed off. All this time I thought it was because there were issues with it - now it sounds like the only issue is that you can't beat the fights without casualties?

I apologize for getting mad at you, I should be better about it, because you are cool, but man. Tell me I misunderstood you! Please!

Sensuki has a penchant for arrogance shameless self-indulgence, but come on man. It's the internet. There are more valuable targets for the odd nerdrage. Shameless as he is, Sensuki has a useful approach to feedback.

 

[Sensuki]

Tell me I misunderstood you! Please!

I think you need to go back and actually read what I was replying to. The discussion went off-topic. I replied to Hobo Elf who said that he was having trouble with shades. He said that he either wiped encounters or he lost, agreeing with my statement earlier in the thread that the game revolves around good initial positioning and he said that if he got that right - he won. I agreed. You quoted me saying that was an unreasonable response (Why, I'm not sure - because it didn't have anything to do with our back and forth).

I then explained to you that I get enjoyment from winning encounters as clearly as I can. If one of my party members goes down in a fight, I will reload because I consider that a mistake. Yes, I play like this. This has nothing to do with engagement, this is just how I enjoy playing. I am a power gamer. I've played competitive games. I enjoy system mastery. I like improving at things, figuring things out. In my opinion this entirely reasonable. I know how to play with engagement. I know how to use it to my advantage. I know how to abuse it. I don't struggle playing with it. I understand how it works, I know exactly how to use it. I take it you haven't watched any of my recent videos on youtube either.

And then you cracked it at me for explaining that I get enjoyment from doing this, but probably not for that reason - I think you did misunderstand. It obviously grates on you, but I'm not sure how that reflects on the position of the company. To be honest I'm a little bit disappointed, thoguh. I don't enjoy engagement. I never will. I vocally state that I think it's a bad system. I think that the others here will speak for me that it's a small drop in the pond compared to the other positive things I say about the game and I do for the game.

 

[Darth Roxor]

posting in developer meltdown thread

 

[Infinitron]

Tell me I misunderstood you! Please!

I think you need to go back and actually read what I was replying to. The discussion went off-topic. I replied to Hobo Elf who said that he was having trouble with shades. He said that he either wiped encounters or he lost, agreeing with my statement earlier in the thread that the game revolves around good initial positioning and he said that if he got that right - he won. I agreed. You quoted me saying that was an unreasonable response (Why, I'm not sure - because it didn't have anything to do with our back and forth).

I then explained to you that I get enjoyment from winning encounters as clearly as I can. If one of my party members goes down in a fight, I will reload because I consider that a mistake. Yes, I play like this. This has nothing to do with engagement, this is just how I enjoy playing. I am a power gamer. I've played competitive games. I enjoy system mastery. I like improving at things, figuring things out. In my opinion this entirely reasonable. I know how to play with engagement. I know how to use it to my advantage. I know how to abuse it. I don't struggle playing with it. I understand how it works, I know exactly how to use it. I take it you haven't watched any of my recent videos on youtube either.

And then you cracked it at me for explaining that I get enjoyment from doing this, but probably not for that reason - I think you did misunderstand. It obviously grates on you, but I'm not sure how that reflects on the position of the company. To be honest I'm a little bit disappointed, thoguh. I don't enjoy engagement. I never will. I vocally state that I think it's a bad system. I think that the others here will speak for me that it's a small drop in the pond compared to the other positive things I say about the game and I do for the game.

Eh, to be fair, the engagement issue isn't entirely unrelated to your preferred mode of playing. If you were willing to suffer knockouts, you'd be less concerned about eating the occasional disengagement attack.

 

[Grunker]

Eh, to be fair, the engagement issue isn't entirely unrelated to your preferred mode of playing. If you were willing to suffer knockouts, you'd be less concerned about eating the occasional disengagement attack.

Not really? I don't understand Sensuki's point here - I am perfectly willing to accept knockouts all over the place, yet I have by and large the same problems he has.

The part of is criticism that is "the game does not allow me to play the exact way I prefer to play" is and has always been ludicrous.

 

[Sensuki]

No, I don't suffer disengagement attacks because it ruins the adventuring pace. I like to try and get the most out of an adventuring day. Push the party to the limits, see if I can do just another encounter while fatigued. Disengagement attack = shorter adventuring day.

 

[Infinitron]

Eh, to be fair, the engagement issue isn't entirely unrelated to your preferred mode of playing. If you were willing to suffer knockouts, you'd be less concerned about eating the occasional disengagement attack.

Not really? I don't understand Sensuki's point here - I am perfectly willing to accept knockouts all over the place, yet I have by and large the same problems he has.

I don't say that was the only reason not to like engagement.

 

[Shevek]

I think it speaks well of a game that it evokes such passionate responses from folks that talk about it. Be assured Davis, most of the Codex can appreciate how good this game is.

 

[Grunker]

That's a p. shitty argument Sensuki.

 

[Grunker]

Eh, to be fair, the engagement issue isn't entirely unrelated to your preferred mode of playing. If you were willing to suffer knockouts, you'd be less concerned about eating the occasional disengagement attack.

Not really? I don't understand Sensuki's point here - I am perfectly willing to accept knockouts all over the place, yet I have by and large the same problems he has.

I don't say that was the only reason not to like engagement.

See above, I didn't understand the extend of Sensuki's argument. I disagree with it very much. Might as well argue against die rolls with that logic.

 

[Sensuki]

You're fucking kidding right?

You tell me why I should suffer disengagement attacks when I don't need to? I see no reason to give the enemy a free attack against me at all, if I can avoid it.

 

[Grunker]

You're fucking kidding right?

You tell me why I should suffer disengagement attacks when I don't need to? I see no reason to give the enemy a free attack against me at all, if I can avoid it.

I'm not, I'm saying that the fact that your prefered playstyle isn't supported isn't an argument against a system. That you have a harder time doing perfect runs is not a reason the system is problematic.

 

[Shevek]

Sensuki
Then break engagement before you move.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

To be honest I'm a little bit disappointed, thoguh. I don't enjoy engagement. I never will. I vocally state that I think it's a bad system. I think that the others here will speak for me that it's a small drop in the pond compared to the other positive things I say about the game and I do for the game.

A lot of people (not talking about you, Anthony Davis ), seem to think that the people who have discussed how they don't like various systems in PoE mean they hate they game, or are just bitching to gain Kodex Kool Kredits or some shit. In actuality, most of the people in this thread, except Roxor, who have discussed how they dislike engagement have also mentioned that they like the game a lot. It's entirely reasonable to enjoy games and yet give honest feedback about parts of the game you dislike. All of the Codex's top all time games have severe, objective flaws and we talk about them all the time. But now with PoE we're supposed to act as though it's perfect in all ways? Please.

 

[Sensuki]

Sensuki
Then break engagement before you move.

I do, every time. You ever seen me involuntarily getting hit with a disengagement attack in a video?

I'm not, I'm saying that the fact that your prefered playstyle isn't supported isn't an argument against a system. That you have a harder time doing perfect runs is not a reason the system is problematic.

I've already given several arguments against the system. I was asked why I don't let enemies score disengagement attacks on me. I told you.

The only way I will willing disengage is if the benefit outweighs the damage I'm going to take. When I play, the only time that comes up is persistent hazards.

 

[Infinitron]

You tell me why I should suffer disengagement attacks when I don't need to? I see no reason to give the enemy a free attack against me at all, if I can avoid it.

What I'm saying is, if you play the game in a certain way, you might find yourself in plenty of situations where you DO "need" to suffer a disengagement attack, to go do something more important somewhere else on the battlefield.

But if you really really hate the concept of suffering disengagement attacks, you'll gear your entire strategy from the outset around avoiding any situation where you might conceivably want to disengage. Maybe that's the "optimal" strategy, but it might just be unfun.

 

[Grunker]

I wasn't talking about your other arguments, only this one. Most of the other stuff we've talked about I agree with you on.

I still think the main problem with the system is the way that it shifts the focus to the opening moments of a battle.

 

[Sensuki]

Well, I think everyone can agree that the reason you don't want to take disengagement attacks is that it reduces your health and the only reason you'll take one voluntarily is if the benefits outweigh the positives, right?

Some people mistakenly proc them, some people misjudge the cost benefit analysis.

 

[Shevek]

Man, this is a tempest in a teapot.

 

[Haba]

Disengagement is a shit mechanic in a RTWP game.

It could work if:
a) path-finding wasn't broken as hell
b) there was a slower combat pace
c) feedback for disengagement attacks was clearer

Just another reason why TB is superior. Right now I am just micromanaging digital idiots to avoid disengagement attacks. This is not enjoyable AT ALL. I am seriously tempted to drop down to easiest difficulty. Not because the game is "hard" but because the difficulty mainly comes from things I can't influence without tedious hassle.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Yeah, the terrible pathfinding in combat is probably the worst co-offender when it comes to disengagement.

 

[tuluse]

b) there was a slower combat pace

Have you tried slow motion mode? I really like it a lot.

 

[Lhynn]

The problems with the engagment system have already been exposed back in the first page, the other 4 pages are p. pointless. Anthony has failed to adress those issues, i can only hope it will be changed.

This is p. much the only thing that matters:

The engagement system nullifies movement and puts pressure on the poor pathfinding which has trouble enough already. That's the short story, and it's brought to you by a guy who thinks IE-pathfinding is more than good enough. As long as the game's pathfinding can take the shortest route when I click 3- or 4 centimeters away, I'm good. PoE's can't even handle that. Furthermore, the mechanic is loose. You don't kinaesthetically feel the tether between characters, and with so many units in each fight, engangement quickly becomes a web of randomness. Sure, with some concentration I can work it out, but does 'fun' to you imply pausing and going "Okay, that engagement tether goes from there to there, that one goes from there to there, okay here I can move, no wait, I can't" and then unpause, tell your character to move an inch after which the character goes in opposite direction, taking three engagement attacks (or at least you think that's what happened since the feedback is so loose you're not sure) and still not ending up where you wanted?

The result is that any sensible player will make sure that all positioning is done in the first few seconds of combat, so that he won't have to move again. Ever. A player does that, he can ignore all the bullshit. Thus, the system frontloads initial decision-making to the detriment of on-the-fly fighting. My main beef with PoE so far is that I find myself quickly reloading fights if the first 4 or 5 seconds of it don't go as planned - because I know that all decisions I make subsequent to that opening space are much, much less essential as long as the beginning is right.

Needs to be either scrapped or reworked, and this is coming from a guy that didnt hate AoOs in nwn1, because at this point it only takes away from the encounters.