Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Eternity Eora Theology Discussion: Is Skaen an analogue to Early Christianity?

Maculo

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
2,589
Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
Lacrymas dude, come the fuck on - it explicitly states that they kill those they hate. Not much more to it. The God's own portfolio is secret hatred, resentment and VIOLENT rebellion.
At the same time, there are regional and even personal differences in terms of worship and practice in PoE. For example, Durance criticized practice of Magran in Defiance Bay (Priest of Magran that gives the quest) and I think Aedyr for being too flowery and abstract. Also compare Eder's practice of Eothas in his village (chill worship) with Readceras (violent fanatics).

The Skaen Temple in Dyrwood Village was abducting and murdering people, but that may not be the only way to exemplify Skaen.
 

pomenitul

Arbiter
Joined
Sep 8, 2016
Messages
979
Location
μεταβολή
That ...doesn't have anything to do with what I'm saying. That's a pretty gross and slavish state of mind as well. It's also cherry-picked. I'm sure we all know we can find a lot of different sentences in the Bible to support any kind of interpretation, so it's a bit moot anyway.

Compare the following:

You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Burn
Feel thy hatred twist within thee.
Feed thyself on its bile, sustain thyself on its anger.
This hatred, this bile, this anger - these shall be the tools for thy rebellion.

Let thine heart seethe.

I'm rather amused at your suggestion that quoting one of the most fundamental segments of the Sermon on the Mount counts as 'cherry-picking'. But I commend you for your commitment to sophistry in this one instance.

You are right to point out that both Christianity and the Skaenite faith potentially stem from the same Nietzschean ressentiment. But that's where the similarities end.
 
Self-Ejected

CptMace

Self-Ejected
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
1,278
Location
Die große Nation
Don't you guys see what's happening here ? You're falling for Skaen's deceitful influence, going after each other's throats...
Always remember that we are brothers and sisters, all children of the crpg genre and its magnificent aura of incline. We're to fight the scoundrels and agents of decline alike, not each other :(
Now kiss.

If only Sherry was here...
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,705
Pathfinder: Wrath
Why is this so hard to understand? My point is that both Skaen and the Christian God are on the side of the oppressed, which I think is one of the most important things in Christianity and the nuance that makes Skaenite faith interesting and worth exploring. Like I said multiple times already, it can have Christian elements while being different.


I do find his religion interesting,it is great for EXP. Still it is not the deity that i would chose to worship.

Skaen is the only god who seems to care about his followers and gives them the opportunity to rise up. All other gods are aloof and will smite everyone they want, all they seem to do is bring their followers down or interfere in some way, especially Magran, who sends her followers to struggle against something she knows they can't surmount (like sending a lone priestess against a fully grown drake and its kobold army or leaving Durance and his fellow bomb-smiths to die in the blast).
 
Last edited:

pomenitul

Arbiter
Joined
Sep 8, 2016
Messages
979
Location
μεταβολή
Why is this so hard to understand? My point is that both Skaen and the Christian God are on the side of the oppressed, which I think is one of the most important things in Christianity and the nuance that makes Skaenite faith interesting and worth exploring. Like I said multiple times already, it can have Christian elements while being different.

Your claim is that Skaen 'is the most Christian of Eora's gods', which overdetermines resemblance at the expense of difference, just as it conveniently sidelines Eothas. Yes, Skaen is technically a Christ-like figure if we isolate certain key elements – but that alone does not suffice. Nonetheless, I do agree that these tenuous connections are worth exploring and would certainly make for a more interesting treatment of the Skaenite faith than in PoE1. I'm just wary of the hyperbole.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,544
Location
Bulgaria
Why is this so hard to understand? My point is that both Skaen and the Christian God are on the side of the oppressed, which I think is one of the most important things in Christianity and the nuance that makes Skaenite faith interesting and worth exploring. Like I said multiple times already, it can have Christian elements while being different.
Christianity is on the side of the ruler,they rule by divine grace. One of the Christianity's motes is "Help yourself so god can help you." Many people mistake Christianity for religion of the week and downtrodden,while it is religious of the righteous no matter of their status. If you are true believer you will get rewarded in the after life. Another aspect of Christianity is the struggle and hardship of life,really hate people that say "God doesn't exist because he let bunch of people die in a church!". The worst bunch are people who just sit on their hands and expect the Divine to help them and when something bad happen to them blame him. God is not something that interfere in your life,it is something you believe in and live by its principles. Show believe trough your actions not trough empty prayers.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,705
Pathfinder: Wrath
Eothas is too one-dimensional and the god of being a pussy, too close to the lawful stupid gods in D&D and too obviously written as the "good" god, which makes him thoroughly uninteresting.


Christianity is on the side of the ruler,they rule by divine grace.

From the very words of Pope Benedict XVI, from his book Jesus of Nazareth vol. II -

Since Jesus let himself be tortured, the wounded and oppressed have become the image of God who has wished to suffer for us. This is how Christ, among his Passion, is the example of hope: God is on the side of those who suffer.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,544
Location
Bulgaria
That shit stain has nothing to do with Christianity and Christendom! He is just pushing his sjw bullshit to fill his coffers. I would rather become muslim scum than accept that shit as a Christian priest! He is he face of everything wrong with modern Christianity,spineless cunt!
 

Maculo

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
2,589
Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
Eothas is too one-dimensional and the god of being a pussy, too close to the lawful stupid gods in D&D and too obviously written as the "good" god, which makes him thoroughly uninteresting.


Christianity is on the side of the ruler,they rule by divine grace.

From the very words of Pope Benedict XVI, from his book Jesus of Nazareth vol. II -

Since Jesus let himself be tortured, the wounded and oppressed have become the image of God who has wished to suffer for us. This is how Christ, among his Passion, is the example of hope: God is on the side of those who suffer.
I disagree, he does not seem like a strictly "good" god, but rather one of revelation, whether that revelation be good or bad. Look to the story The Great White Stag. I disliked the PoE1 in-game books, but the last line of this book had a slight hint of foreshadowing:

One day, Eothas was sitting on a wall, watching a cat play in the sun. A crystal, hung in a nearby tree, had fragmented a sunbeam and scattered small motes of light on the ground. They danced around the cat, sliding over him as he frantically batted at them. He spun in place, following one as it rushed past him, and leaped on it, trying to pin it down. Eothas smiled, amused at the animal's tenacity. The cat landed on a spot, placing his paws over it only to watch it flit away again. Eothas watched the cat's tail twitch and slap at the ground, annoyed that his prey could not be pinned.

‘Why must you tease him?’ a voice said from behind him, accompanied by the crunch of sandals on gravel.

I merely bring the dawn,’ Eothas responded. ‘I don't stoke the hunter's heart. That's your responsibility, isn't it?’

‘True,’ said a second voice, ‘but neither to you quell it. If the hunter could not see his prey, would he still hunt?’

‘So philosophical, Hylea,’ Eothas said and turned to greet the two gods that approached him. ‘Have you come to debate the parallel between sight and desire?’ He gestured to the wall, inviting Hylea and Galawain to join him. They sat in silence, watching the cat who continued to hunt the sun, fruitlessly swatting at another mote and then rolling onto his back.

‘I have created the ultimate prey,’ Eothas said finally, breaking the silence. ‘It can be tracked. It can be followed. It can be seen. But it can never be caught.’ Galawain laughed lightly. ‘You don't agree, Galawain?’ Eothas asked.

‘While it's true that your creation is elusive, it hardly can be considered the ultimate prey because it never can be caught.’ He paused, his brow furrowed in thought. ‘If that mote of light had substance, the hunter could subdue it. Otherwise, it's merely a dream - truly a fruitless endeavor.’

‘All creatures spend their lives chasing fruitless endeavors,’ said Hylea. ‘It is the way of mortality.’Galawain laughed again.

‘I could create a creature - a living creature of flesh and blood - that could never be caught. I make your dream a reality.’ Now it was Eothas's turn to laugh.

‘You propose turning a fruitless dream into a fruitless reality! How is this any better?’

‘A life spent in the pursuit of an attainable goal far exceeds any other.’

‘But you just said no one could catch this creature! This is not attainable!’

Galawain smiled. ‘Humanity has surprised us before. Indeed it could surprise us again. I will create a great white stag and I will set it free in the world. It will have grace, resilience, and tenacity. It will exist solely to be pursued for all its days, and it will never be caught. It will serve to inspire the hunt for generations to come. All those who wish for glory will invoke my name. All those who hear its story will ask for my blessing in finding it.’

Hylea shook her head, and threw Galawain a bemused look. ‘I do not believe this is possible. So I, too, make an offer. To the person who catches this stag - and they will catch the stag - I will bestow upon them its grace, resilience, and tenacity. Thrice blessed they will be. They will ask for my blessing on the hunt so they can obtain my boon.’

Galawain and Hylea took up arguing whose name would be invoked more when the hunt was on. Eothas sighed, a small smile playing at the edges of his mouth. He stood and looked to the sky. The sun had already started to hide itself behind the mountains. The cat, long ago tired of the stalking the motes, had fallen asleep beneath the tree. He turned and looked at the other gods, deep in debate, and sighed again.

I merely bring the dawn,’ he repeated as he made his way down the path, ‘it is up to you to see what I reveal.

Furthermore, he did start the Saints' War, although we do not know why. Eothas' motivations still are unknown, whereas the other gods' motivations are spelled out for us by the gods themselves or some insert.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,705
Pathfinder: Wrath
Isn't Wael the god of revelations? Maybe if Eothas was written also as the god of confessions and absolution from sin (any kind of absolution), he'd be more to my liking, but as it stands now, he's just boring.
 

Sizzle

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,473
There is some overlap in their portfolios - like between Rymrgand and Berath, and Magran and Galawain, to name a few.
 

Maculo

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
2,589
Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
Isn't Wael the god of revelations? Maybe if Eothas was written also as the god of confessions and absolution from sin (any kind of absolution), he'd be more to my liking, but as it stands now, he's just boring.
I viewed Wael as more of a god of mystery. He hides secrets even from his own followers (e.g., the Scroll Quest). My interpretation is that he does not care if people find the mystery or not, just that they inspired by it. Wael wants to hide the souls, but he does not care if anyone finds where the souls went.

Eothas leads people on a path of redemption and revelation, per the story the White Stag and that trial story in which he tests a man's character. Eothas casts light on something, it is up to the person to see what it is ("I merely bring the dawn,’ he repeated as he made his way down the path, ‘it is up to you to see what I reveal.")
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,705
Pathfinder: Wrath
How is that practical in any way, though, and what does it mean? It seems too abstract and a cop-out. "Oh, I also reveal things, but I won't tell you what they are". This is basically Wael's shtick as well, why do we need two of these?
 

FreeKaner

Prophet of the Dumpsterfire
Joined
Mar 28, 2015
Messages
6,942
Location
Devlet-i ʿAlīye-i ʿErdogānīye
How is that practical in any way, though, and what does it mean? It seems too abstract and a cop-out. "Oh, I also reveal things, but I won't tell you what they are". This is basically Wael's shtick as well, why do we need two of these?

I don't think Wael is about revealing things whatsoever, it's about mystery in itself and reflection upon that mystery. It's what it is and has some similarity with older pantheons.
 

Sizzle

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,473
It's obviously inspired by real-life pagan pantheons, and the gods in those had plenty of overlap (Ares-Athena, to give an example of "competing" portfolios of the same thing, with a different angle to them).

Eothas is the light of revelation, while Wael is the mystery of it.

Woedica and Skaen are both about payback - he of grudges and she with vengeance.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,705
Pathfinder: Wrath
Wael's church is called The Hall of Revealed Mysteries, he doesn't stop you from taking the scroll back to the dwarf (making it your choice whether to reveal its contents) and the wiki states that revelation is in his portfolio. Eothas is never shown to reveal any secrets or mysteries, no matter what he says about himself in that book. "Actions speak more than words" is very apt in this case. It's simply a throwaway line in a single book, nobody else mentions Eothas and revelations in the same context.
 

Tenebris

Scholar
Joined
Sep 18, 2017
Messages
277
How is that practical in any way, though, and what does it mean? It seems too abstract and a cop-out. "Oh, I also reveal things, but I won't tell you what they are". This is basically Wael's shtick as well, why do we need two of these?

I don't think Wael is about revealing things whatsoever, it's about mystery in itself and reflection upon that mystery. It's what it is and has some similarity with older pantheons.

Hiravias explains Wael pretty well in one of his party banters.
Wael does not unravel , but he helps guide you to the path of learning for yourself.
 

Maculo

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
2,589
Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
Wael's church is called The Hall of Revealed Mysteries, he doesn't stop you from taking the scroll back to the dwarf (making it your choice whether to reveal its contents) and the wiki states that revelation is in his portfolio. Eothas is never shown to reveal any secrets or mysteries, no matter what he says about himself in that book. "Actions speak more than words" is very apt in this case. It's simply a throwaway line in a single book, nobody else mentions Eothas and revelations in the same context.
The action being the Saint's War, in which the god of "benevolence" chooses an avatar and starts a bloody sectarian conflict.

He is the only god we do not have clear motivations spelled out for us.
 

Sizzle

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,473
Yes, the Hall of Revealed Mysteries, which is ironic on purpose, because he never reveals any.

As for that tale involving Eothas - we know so little about any of the gods, it's silly to disregard any background lore information we have on them.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,705
Pathfinder: Wrath
The action being the Saint's War, in which the god of "benevolence" chooses an avatar and starts a bloody sectarian conflict.

He is the only god we do not have clear motivations spelled out for us.

And starting a war is clear evidence of revelation being in his portfolio?


Yes, the Hall of Revealed Mysteries, which is ironic on purpose, because he never reveals any.

Why do you think it's an ironic name? Having a hunch really isn't enough when all evidence points to Wael being a god of revelation as well. He might not reveal anything personally, but as mentioned, Hiravias says he guides you on the path to revealing by yourself.
 

Sizzle

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,473
Yes, the Hall of Revealed Mysteries, which is ironic on purpose, because he never reveals any.

Why do you think it's an ironic name? Having a hunch really isn't enough when all evidence points to Wael being a god of revelation as well.

Like I said - because he never reveals any. He gives omens, signs, tests people and puts them on the path to (maybe) discovery. Basically, he does reveal mysteries (in the sense that he points them out), but not the truth and secrets behind them - that's up to the mortal searching for them.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom