Eternity Eora Theology Discussion: Is Skaen an analogue to Early Christianity?

[Kyl Von Kull]

TBH, 'they both deal in the weak of society' isn't a very strong link.

More like they’re both religion as class war, which was the unique thing about early Christianity. If “be awesome to each other”
+ binary afterlife was all you needed for marketing purposes, the west would be full of Zoroastrians.

I’m not saying early Christianity was actually like this—I have no earthly idea—but the (incredibly negative) way it’s portrayed by Nietzsche is very similar to the Skaen cult.

 

[FreeKaner]

The reason Zoroastrianism didn't spread was because it didn't try to proselytise and it was tied to power base of Iranians so always waned or waxed with it. It's also a bit too individualistic.

 

[Lacrymas]

TBH, 'they both deal in the weak of society' isn't a very strong link.

It's not only "dealing with the weak", it's about how Skaen and the Christian God relate to the weak. I already said how Skaen is on the side of the disenfranchised, but there's something more - just like the Crucifixion is a symbol of hope and of how Christ, through his sacrifice and agony, takes up the sins of mankind upon himself, ridding them of their burden, the Effigy is also such a symbol of hope for earthly liberation and of taking up burdens through sacrifice and pain. The only difference is that the Effigy is a weapon, Skaen is just more proactive in that sense. Also everything Kyl von Kull said. The parallels from both a philosophical and historical perspective are quite a lot, it's not a shaky connection at all.

 

[pomenitul]

The only difference is that the Effigy is a weapon.

 

[Delterius]

The only difference is that the Effigy is a weapon

Are you ~~suuure~~ that's the only difference?

Because if we are going to reduce everything to "has inklings of class struggle and hopes for redemption and renewal in some ways we'd rather not specify" we'd sooner conclude Jesus was the first Marxist in history.

More like they’re both religion as class war

To be clear, I hadn't read your post and I meant the above as a joke.

If “be awesome to each other”
+ binary afterlife was all you needed for marketing purposes, the west would be full of Zoroastrians.

Now there's a lot of parallels between Zoroastrianism and Christianity. But neither is very much like the God of Slaxploitations.

 

[Lacrymas]

It's the only difference in the context that I'm putting it in. Going into more theology and listing differences that don't pertain to the issue at hand will only delude my point. Not weaken it, just needlessly bog it down and we'll be here forever. It's my attempt at explaining what more I find in Skaen and you all start pearl-clutching and going "some kind of meaning in MY PoE? Inconceivable!" It's also not about class struggle, where are you getting that from? Being beaten, humiliated and oppressed is not exclusively a class issue, even if that is the only thing they've shown in the game, but we've already concluded that the C-tier horror schlock representation isn't very good.

 

[Delterius]

Going into more theology and listing differences that don't pertain to the issue at hand will only delude my point.

That may be a problem with your point, though. You're comparing one god of a pantheon with a whole system of theology. You're saying that the god of bloody revenge, chaos and anarchy has somethin to do with Christianity.

Even if you focus entirely on Nietzsche's own interpretation of Christianity, you can tell that the Church not only cultivated an inversion of values towards weakness, but also glorified obedience and passivity.

Generally, good ideas not only stand to criticism. They thrive on it. And the more we look into this, the less sense it makes.

Pretending that we are just phillistines who can't appreciate 'meaning' in fantasy RPG lore is just cuntish, tbh.

 

[Lacrymas]

You are blowing this way out of proportion. I'm not equating Skaen with the whole of Christianity. I presented my evidence on why I think Skaen faith has Christian elements and I don't think that can be disputed, nobody has disputed it yet. It's not I who brought up Nietzsche, but Pope Benedict's point about Jesus on the Cross, so Nietzsche's thing isn't on me. Skaen also isn't about chaos and anarchy, that's Wael if anyone.

 

[Delterius]

Evidence of what? That Skaen favors those at the bottom of the hierarchy while Christianity preaches Obedience? That christians are taught the value of suffering and martyrdom while Skaen cultists impregnate rape victims with the essence of revenge itself?

 

[Lacrymas]

No, that Skaen and the Christian God are on the side of the oppressed, beaten and humiliated and give them the means to rise above that! And that both the Crucifixion and the Effigy are symbols of hope through pain and sacrifice.

 

[Delterius]

And that's really, really vague. Horoscope tier of vague. That's what we are saying. If your point starts to break down the second we ask a simple question about any of the nouns you use -- such as, ''what means do they give people?'' or ''what is this Effigy thing-- holy fucking shit what the hell is this slasher movie shit???'' --, then maybe the point was sort of pointless.

 

[Lacrymas]

No, it's not vague at all.

 

[Delterius]

Guys, the Crucifiction and the Effigy as both symbols of hope. I mean, sure, one is a guy dying to redeem humanity's sins. The other is something straight out of Hellraiser. But don't miss the freedom for the orgy of blood and dea-- I mean don't miss the forest for the trees.

 

[Lacrymas]

I already explained this. The Effigy is someone sacrificing themself by a painful ritual to alleviate the burden/oppression of others, that "impregnated rape victim's child with the spirit of vengeance" is not the Effigy, maybe you've got them confused.

 

[Delterius]

This is the Effigy:

An effigy of Skaen is a horrific creature called into being only by those most desperately oppressed who are willing to commit unspeakable acts to set themselves free.

Worshipers must choose one of their number to serve as the effigy, shaving this person's hair and removing all signs and symbols of gender or identity. The person is then scourged bloody over every inch of their body, their ears and nose cut off, their eyes gouged out and replaced with shiny black stones. Finally, they are made to drink the "privileged blood" of a person of wealth or high birth. This blood must be fresh, and the effigy must consume every drop.

If the offering is accepted by the god - which is not guaranteed - Skaen will manifest in the effigy and become an utterly unstoppable and pitiless vessel of the god's power, immune to pain and imbued with a monstrous strength. As soon as the target oppressors are slain - usually in a gruesome manner - the effigy falls dead.

True appearances of the effigy are vanishingly rare. In the most recent recorded case, about a century before the present day, an effigy reportedly led a backwoods peasant rebellion during which an entire noble family was captured, flayed alive, and nailed to the roof of their estate to be devoured by birds and flies.

If Rich Evans read this on the back of a DVD case for some B horror movie, I'd believe it.

The parallel is really weak, Lacrymas.

 

[Lacrymas]

No, it's not weak. The thing you quoted is exactly what I'm saying - someone sacrificing themselves by a painful ritual to alleviate the oppression of others. It's also rarely seen so it can be taken as a symbol. A symbol of hope through pain and sacrifice. Just like the Crucifixion in this context. You are too fixated on the blood and gore aspects of it and neglecting everything else, while forgetting that Jesus' agony, torture and humiliation is also bloody and gory.

 

[Delterius]

The thing you quoted is exactly what I'm saying - someone sacrificing themselves by a painful ritual to alleviate the oppression of others.

And also to summon an immortal idol of death, suffering and destruction.

This isn't muddying the point, its refuting it.

 

[Ulfhednar]

"Sure, we can have violent rebellions without murdering people... of course." Skaen

"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment." Jesus

Basically the same thing...

 

[Lacrymas]

And also to summon an immortal idol of death, suffering and destruction.

This isn't muddying the point, its refuting it.

How is it refuting it? Yes, PoE's version obviously has more magical aspects to it, I already said that Skaen is more proactive in its saving from oppression, while in Christianity you have to wait until you die. The philosophical ramifications that I mentioned are the same, though, which is what is important.

 

[Delterius]

You are too fixated

You're the one who's fixated.

You say they are both symbols of hope, but the moment someone points out one of the million or so very basic aspects that completely change the pictures, you think that's muddying the point.

Yeah, that Jesus sacrificed himself to redeem humanity is christianity's story. That has nothing whatsoever to do with Skaen.

while in Christianity you have to wait until you die.

Yeah, but you don't die and become a dervish and revolutionary murdergore now do you?

The philosophical ramifications of both are the same, though, which is what is important.

Christianity's philosophical ramification is kill your masters? That's what the churches were teaching all along?

 

[Lacrymas]

Nothing of what you say changes the picture at all!

 

[Delterius]

Nothing of what you say changes the picture at all!

Are you insane?

 

[Lacrymas]

Why is it so important that the Effigy turns into a physical thing and how is it refuting the whole thing? How does that change the fact that Skaen is on the side of the oppressed or that the Effigy is a symbol of hope for people who want to not be slaves anymore?

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Because if we are going to reduce everything to "has inklings of class struggle and hopes for redemption and renewal in some ways we'd rather not specify" we'd sooner conclude Jesus was the first Marxist in history.

Sure, although maybe a better way to put it is that Marx had Christian moral values (egalitarianism, universalism—they just have a very different definition of salvation).

Evidence of what? That Skaen favors those at the bottom of the hierarchy while Christianity preaches Obedience? That christians are taught the value of suffering and martyrdom while Skaen cultists impregnate rape victims with the essence of revenge itself?

Early Christianity was revolutionary and did not teach obedience—why else the lions?

Let’s take the man at his word. This is Jesus in Matthew 10.

16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues.

18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death.

22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.”

That’s seditious, not obedient. Certainly, he’s not mister peace and tranquility.

More importantly, Matthew 10.34:

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36and one’s foes will be members of one’s own household. 37Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”

That may not be how Christianity is today, let alone sees itself today, but the Church was a lot more militant about these things 1800 years ago. Skaen also brings the sword.

As for implanting the crazed soul in the rape victim, I read that as a twisted reflection of the immaculate conception. Just as the effigy is a twisted reflection of the crucifiction. Jesus sacrifices himself to redeem his chosen, NOT all of mankind (take it up with Calvin).

Personally, I don’t see much difference between rewarding your followers and punishing the wicked in the here and now or the afterlife.

No one is saying that Christ is morally equivalent to the Skaen cult, but the parallels are there and they are deliberate. It’s not like Obsidian has the warmest view of religion.

 

[Lacrymas]

I don't know if it's deliberate, but it's there nonetheless. We should ask Ziets if that's what he was thinking when creating Skaen.