Europa Universalis IV

[Delterius]

So the game should't give magical bonuses to nations that could simply be reduced to nothingness and patheticism. In fact, I hate historical determinism. For example, I hated how in EU3 I never saw Scotland conquer England, ever, or France finally put a end to England.

Don't exaggerate. Small and medium powers have their chances. I even remember my last game as Denmark, and the partial results (1700s) were:

Scotland has conquered most of Great Britain, hasn't formed it because Northumberland and Cornwall became client states (and because I conquered the Highlands).
Burgundy became France.
Bavaria became The Central Empire, as well as HRE, until I brought them down.
Portugal and Aragon shared the Iberian Peninsula, with Portugal holding part of Algiers and Morocco as a catholic nation.
The Papal States owned Italy, with the exception of a Venezian enclave, I think.
Byzantium was reborn.
Novgorod almost became relevant, if it wasn't for the fact that I wanted Scandinavia to be the "Empire of the North".
Poland and Lithuania still existed.

I concede this wasn't a normal game. But, FFS, I've seen AI Maldives conquering India.

The only deterministic constant I've seen is european superior tech making the game utterly boring whenever you're looking to expand anywhere outside of Europe. And someone almost forming a Muslim Empire but later broken by the aforementioned european tech or attrition misnamagement.

 

[Delterius]

Yes, I should have mentioned that EU3 not being 100% determinism doesn't diminish future concerns. Though I wonder how the special ideas compare with the "regular ones" - maybe they act less like "lucky nations" and more like guiding the AI/Player into a specific playstyle. We haven't seen the regular ideas yet, have we?

Anyway, that game got boring once I broke Bavaria and vassalized 3 Electors. They were more or less a threat until I realized I hadn't picked Grand Army. So I quit it.

My Papal States game, where Byzantium got pretty large on its own and I dedicated the last 50 years of Holy War CB to ensure that they got strong enough for a Eastern versus Western Roman Empire showdown, is my favorite by far.

 

[Sranchammer]

Just stopped playing EU3 with MEOIU. Haven't played it since 09 and gave up after 1460. God, the AI is horrible.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Was never able to get much into the EU series, i prefer the smaller scale management of Crusader Kings. In EU and Victoria i always get bogged down with national policies, dense research and unit production.

 

[Delterius]

Was never able to get much into the EU series, i prefer the smaller scale management of Crusader Kings. In EU and Victoria i always get bogged down with national policies, dense research and unit production.

The three things that you can resolve in a single click?

 

[Kem0sabe]

The three things that you can resolve in a single click?

For me there is such a thing as too many features.

I prefer the more scaled back design of CK.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

actually ck2 is the true micromanagement hell, eu and victoria don't come even close.

 

[Delterius]

In my experience, I always feel like Paradox games are micromanagement hell until I realize that I shouldn't keep track of most stuff. But I do think that CK is the worst of 'em all, Victoria II only becoming a "fun chore" if you need to fine-tune the industrialization process.

 

[Tigranes]

Played a few hours of the Revolutionary France scenario as, well, France recently and it was fun. My mission is to actually get in a real proper game of EU2+AGCEEP before EU4 comes out...

V2 I think is the worst for micromanagement that you can't really avoid; spheres of influence for instance, and of course factories and production. The latter woudl actually be fine if the economy system wasn't broken in different crucial ways every patch.

 

[Average Manatee]

My understanding is that all minor powers will still have a generic set of NIs. As long as the generic set isn't underpowered compared to the specialized set, things should be fine, and in any case that will be easy to balance-mod. All I see is that the nation specific ideas are to encourage Portugal to go colonizing and trading instead of conquering France.

V2 is the worst for micromanagement practically. CK2 would be the worst if the AI wasn't so piss-poor that you never need to take advantage of super-autistic mode.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Screw you all, Victoria 2's micromanagement gives me sperging boners. The game is about showing all other countries that they have inferior potassium/insertproduct than yours.

Now, the real problems with Vicky are two-fold:

1) It's all about size. Boer War, Zulu War, or Austrians in Serbia can never happen the way they did due to how until a certain point a GP can casually just overwhelm a smaller country.

2) For fuck's sake Coal and Timber are always under shortage. You're fucked if you don't start with a good Coal province (and to really succeed, you'll need a lot of them).


Now, personal things I wish the game had (or APD, which is pretty mandatory due to excellence):

Absolute Number One Wish) Properly done Russian Civil War. Seeing how APD has Chinese Civil War done so well, and the basegame has Kwan Civil War (which is kinda ass to be honest, due to how the Union will just steamroll the South 99% of the time). Considering the sheer historical importance of the event, and its length, there's no excuse for not including it.
2) Proper Indian Wars. Sitting Bull and Red Cloud need to get their shot at destroying the Kwa.
3) Better combat, civilized minors being able to seriously resist in case conquest and annexation are the alternative. APD generally solves this by the specifically applied Mobilization bonus, but it's a pretty crude solution that can be circumvented by know-how.
4) Quality vs Quantity represented better in the economy and population size, also applied to military. A good example of this is that the small Grand Duchy of Finland was the most economically developed region of the generally backwards Russian Empire. Currently, that cannot happen because population is almost directly proportional to economic power (mostly due to the fact all money is centralized and able to go anywhere).
5) Alliance reworking. Generally the problem with alliances is in regards to war leaders, and when are alliances called. As a good example, a GP shouldn't be able to answer or issue a call to any GP or non-Sphered Secondary ally if attacked by or attacking a minor. In case of War Leader, the problem is in the ability to move this designation around properly, and for the player due to the game having problems calculating your Military score properly sometimes leading to problems.
6) British India sub-state. Enough is enough with fucking India.

 

[oscar]

Managing multiple spheres of influence was the worst. Almost felt like a minigame.

 

[tuluse]

So I put 27 hours into EU3 in the last week. (Thanks Luzur).

I think I have a grasp on the basics now (tutorials are for pussies, so I figured everything out by trial and error). Firstly, I find it boring to play as the super powers, it's much more fun to take a 2nd or 3rd rate power and dominate. So started a handful of games as Denmark and Ayutthaya, and a couple as Sweden.

My main complaint in general is that there is a lack of direct actions you can take. Everything except diplomacy and wars feel like it's adjusting some minor rate and waiting 10 years to see the effect. Peacetime in general is extremely boring. Diplomacy kind of sucks other than suing for peace, which is amazing. Here's my list of complaints about diplomacy:

Why can't I demand recurring tribute?
Why can't I work with another nation to research faster?
Why is there no direct nation to nation trade and everything goes through CoTs?
Why can't I make battle plans with my allies(like in Alpha Centauri where you could ask your allies to attack a specific city)?
Why can't I demand tribute during peace time, especially from vessels? Followed by, why can't I threaten war if a nation won't cooperate?

Also, I wish you could manage the royal family like you can Total War games. Just being able to see the family tree and set an heir would be nice.

 

[Tigranes]

Screw you all, Victoria 2's micromanagement gives me sperging boners. The game is about showing all other countries that they have inferior potassium/insertproduct than yours..

I'm all for micro but counting the seconds down until someone else's number is nearly 100 before clicking a button to make it 50 for seven different numbers for 500 years is retarded. Spheres of Influence really should have been expanded into an event-based or slider-based mechanic (e.g. do you invest in supporting the Conservatives or Liberals in New Democratic Algeria? Then depending on election outcomes you get a party that is indebted to you, etc) - right now it's just "click click boom". Otherwise, agreed.

tuluse, super powers are only fun if you're LARPing some kind of disaster situation, or playing a short scenario with a specific goal. All Paradox games have a turning point - e.g. in EU3/IN it is usually when you grow to about ten provinces, when you get enough momentum to do whatever you want.

 

[tuluse]

For the record I didn't mean the super powers were less fun in EU3 than other games. Just that I don't enjoy playing them in any game.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Yea, it's a shame Paradox puts so much focus on the superpowers. Generally they're just too uninteresting to play in the huge timespan games. It's much more fun to have Georgia or Lithuania conquer all of Russia, or have Welsh sheep-shaggers conquer England. You got some 500 years to utterly rape history, so might as well make the most of it.

Screw you all, Victoria 2's micromanagement gives me sperging boners. The game is about showing all other countries that they have inferior potassium/insertproduct than yours..

I'm all for micro but counting the seconds down until someone else's number is nearly 100 before clicking a button to make it 50 for seven different numbers for 500 years is retarded. Spheres of Influence really should have been expanded into an event-based or slider-based mechanic (e.g. do you invest in supporting the Conservatives or Liberals in New Democratic Algeria? Then depending on election outcomes you get a party that is indebted to you, etc) - right now it's just "click click boom". Otherwise, agreed.

Oh I would love a more detailed or involved SoI system. Currently the system is largely limited to just checking your opponents attempts to expand, or expanding yourself (most notable example being forming Germany). Generally you don't have to give many fucks about it outside of China, due to all non-starting GPs generally being too weak to export enough raw materials to make getting the first cut worth the effort. This of course goes without mention that all the usual GPs are self-sufficient and thus don't need SoI for the market function.

I'd also like if SoI could be used to either hinder or further the civilization process for the various uncivs. Of course, this would need military overhaul in general, since otherwise it won't matter if those Zulu suddenly have cannons and rifles instead of sharp sticks.

There's two things that could fix the military, but can't be done by modding: First off, rework standing armies to have a core of really damn good troops, which cannot increase past a certain number that's reached relatively quickly (meaning that almost any civilized minor will have an equal force of this caliber to the GPs, which is then immensily buffed in effectiveness if a GP tries to take clay, essentially requiring overwhelming force that's away from everything else or the core army will be an unstoppable rapetrain on defense). More importantly, both sides should be subject to attrition while in combat, which in turn makes doomstacks extremely risky for both parties (of course, this would need the attrition to be calculated separately for each side, so a smaller stack would not take attrition but the doomstack would).

 

[Spectacle]

I think it's actually a good idea for Paradox to focus on making the superpowers more interesting to play. That way the game doesn't get boring once Georgia finishes conquering all of Russia.

 

[ValeVelKal]

Now, personal things I wish the game had (or APD, which is pretty mandatory due to excellence):

Absolute Number One Wish) Properly done Russian Civil War. Seeing how APD has Chinese Civil War done so well, and the basegame has Kwan Civil War (which is kinda ass to be honest, due to how the Union will just steamroll the South 99% of the time). Considering the sheer historical importance of the event, and its length, there's no excuse for not including it.
2) Proper Indian Wars. Sitting Bull and Red Cloud need to get their shot at destroying the Kwa.
3) Better combat, civilized minors being able to seriously resist in case conquest and annexation are the alternative. APD generally solves this by the specifically applied Mobilization bonus, but it's a pretty crude solution that can be circumvented by know-how.
4) Quality vs Quantity represented better in the economy and population size, also applied to military. A good example of this is that the small Grand Duchy of Finland was the most economically developed region of the generally backwards Russian Empire. Currently, that cannot happen because population is almost directly proportional to economic power (mostly due to the fact all money is centralized and able to go anywhere).
5) Alliance reworking. Generally the problem with alliances is in regards to war leaders, and when are alliances called. As a good example, a GP shouldn't be able to answer or issue a call to any GP or non-Sphered Secondary ally if attacked by or attacking a minor. In case of War Leader, the problem is in the ability to move this designation around properly, and for the player due to the game having problems calculating your Military score properly sometimes leading to problems.
6) British India sub-state. Enough is enough with fucking India.

Pride of Nations for the 5 first five items. Diplomacy is exceptional. I have no recollection of how PoN is for the 6th item.

On the other hand, PoN was too complicated even for me a grognard / veteran of Paradox. Try it if you dare.

 

[ohWOW]

What's your opinion on Sengoku?

 

[Irenaeus]

What's your opinion on Sengoku?

Tech demo

 

[Luzur]

So I put 27 hours into EU3 in the last week. (Thanks Luzur).

I think I have a grasp on the basics now (tutorials are for pussies, so I figured everything out by trial and error). Firstly, I find it boring to play as the super powers, it's much more fun to take a 2nd or 3rd rate power and dominate. So started a handful of games as Denmark and Ayutthaya, and a couple as Sweden.

My main complaint in general is that there is a lack of direct actions you can take. Everything except diplomacy and wars feel like it's adjusting some minor rate and waiting 10 years to see the effect. Peacetime in general is extremely boring. Diplomacy kind of sucks other than suing for peace, which is amazing. Here's my list of complaints about diplomacy:

Why can't I demand recurring tribute?
Why can't I work with another nation to research faster?
Why is there no direct nation to nation trade and everything goes through CoTs?
Why can't I make battle plans with my allies(like in Alpha Centauri where you could ask your allies to attack a specific city)?
Why can't I demand tribute during peace time, especially from vessels? Followed by, why can't I threaten war if a nation won't cooperate?

Also, I wish you could manage the royal family like you can Total War games. Just being able to see the family tree and set an heir would be nice.

exactly, i would love for EU4 to be a mix of the EU series, Crusader Kings, Civilization and Total War.

 

[Delterius]

Vaarna_Aarne

I got to say that I think AI Navy, in general, seems broken in Victoria II. Other day I sat through a near-half century war between Italy and the US over some islands in the pacific, and the american 1000000 soldiers didn't do a thing because they went in a never ending cycle of dreadnought spamming which, somehow, kept them from building transports.

This can make a Great War suck if the US aren't isolated and there isn't another Great Power in America (that is you).

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Vaarna_Aarne

I got to say that I think AI Navy, in general, seems broken in Victoria II. Other day I sat through a near-half century war between Italy and the US over some islands in the pacific, and the american 1000000 soldiers didn't do a thing because they went in a never ending cycle of dreadnought spamming which, somehow, kept them from building transports.

This can make a Great War suck if the US aren't isolated and there isn't another Great Power in America (that is you).

Correct, though I rarely see the AI achieve Dreadnaught spam in APD (due to the tech investment needed). It's extremely rare to see Kwa accomplish anything in an overseas war, in my recent Transvaal -> South Africa (cheating like a mofo to survive the start, I'm not as good as Cassidy or others at the game; Also had to cheat to HM's Government after forming the damn place in order to have the flag of DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY) game, I watched the US lose a war against Netherlands over Hawaii due to failing to even move anywhere.

Note that this was a super-US, controlling over half of Mexico in addition to their usual area as this campaign was started with a save where I'd previously arranged maximum possible odds for the CSA (meaning ALL the possible cores, plus five Mexican states as cores). Spoilers: CSA lost like a little bitch after 20 years (generally the main issue is that Union has the major coal provinces, and the downright hax Land of Opportunity modifier).

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

So I put 27 hours into EU3 in the last week. (Thanks Luzur).

I think I have a grasp on the basics now (tutorials are for pussies, so I figured everything out by trial and error). Firstly, I find it boring to play as the super powers, it's much more fun to take a 2nd or 3rd rate power and dominate. So started a handful of games as Denmark and Ayutthaya, and a couple as Sweden.

My main complaint in general is that there is a lack of direct actions you can take. Everything except diplomacy and wars feel like it's adjusting some minor rate and waiting 10 years to see the effect. Peacetime in general is extremely boring. Diplomacy kind of sucks other than suing for peace, which is amazing. Here's my list of complaints about diplomacy:

Why can't I demand recurring tribute?
Why can't I work with another nation to research faster?
Why is there no direct nation to nation trade and everything goes through CoTs?
Why can't I make battle plans with my allies(like in Alpha Centauri where you could ask your allies to attack a specific city)?
Why can't I demand tribute during peace time, especially from vessels? Followed by, why can't I threaten war if a nation won't cooperate?

Also, I wish you could manage the royal family like you can Total War games. Just being able to see the family tree and set an heir would be nice.

exactly, i would love for EU4 to be a mix of the EU series, Crusader Kings, Civilization and Total War.

do you want fries with that too?

 

[Average Manatee]

Vaarna_Aarne

I got to say that I think AI Navy, in general, seems broken in Victoria II. Other day I sat through a near-half century war between Italy and the US over some islands in the pacific, and the american 1000000 soldiers didn't do a thing because they went in a never ending cycle of dreadnought spamming which, somehow, kept them from building transports.

This can make a Great War suck if the US aren't isolated and there isn't another Great Power in America (that is you).

Correct, though I rarely see the AI achieve Dreadnaught spam in APD (due to the tech investment needed). It's extremely rare to see Kwa accomplish anything in an overseas war, in my recent Transvaal -> South Africa (cheating like a mofo to survive the start, I'm not as good as Cassidy or others at the game; Also had to cheat to HM's Government after forming the damn place in order to have the flag of DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY) game, I watched the US lose a war against Netherlands over Hawaii due to failing to even move anywhere.

Note that this was a super-US, controlling over half of Mexico in addition to their usual area as this campaign was started with a save where I'd previously arranged maximum possible odds for the CSA (meaning ALL the possible cores, plus five Mexican states as cores). Spoilers: CSA lost like a little bitch after 20 years (generally the main issue is that Union has the major coal provinces, and the downright hax Land of Opportunity modifier).

Meanwhile whenever I have the USA as an ally and I go conquering in india or w/e I find that the USA has landed quite fine, and done so right ontop of my stack. Thanks for the attrition. My countrymen sure are assholes.

Also I've seen the CSA actually win after the USA sent the majority of forces overseas and then left them there (either in an annexed province of theirs or simply left standing around in my new SOI). And I've seen a communist revolt and takeover due to same circumstances. I think I've seen just about every fate that can possibly happen TBH.