Interview Exciting Oblivion persuasion mini-game is revealed!

[Lumpy]

I believe the Speechcraft skill influences the wedges.
I think the wedgie and Joke/Boast etc. system is a nice touch. The face thing sucks, though, and so does the disposition dropping.

Also, here's an ancient quote from MSFD, from 2004:

But dialogue is getting an overhaul in Oblivion as well. Lots of changes and new features.

 

[JanC]

Bloody mingames. I absolutely cannot stand action-minigames in RPGs. I was drooling for Oblivion, and you guys have managed to almost totally put me off it.

I think minigames are a symtom of a game designer who would really rather be doing action games.

Wost minigame ever: The KOTOR minigame where you had to shoot spaceships.

 

[Astromarine]

Wait...did thief 3 come out for XBOX? I wasn't aware of this. Or am I just reading into this too much?

Yes it did, that's where I played it. And yes, that lockpicking miningame was completely tailormade for the analogue controller, as you worked it just like you would a lockpick and the controller vibrated in the right way in the right place.

 

[Data4]

To be fair, Thief 3 wasn't a roleplaying game, and the lockpicking minigame didn't take away from something stats should have dealt with. The series was basically a first person sneaker, and as such, I enjoyed it greatly.

What kills me, though, is that a stats-based option for lockpicking was implemented in Oblivion, so why couldn't they do the same for persuasion? I could live with an OPTIONAL minigame, as long as I never had to use it. Hell, even Morrowind's was better, since there wasn't that goofy-ass THEY CAN READ YOUR MIND!!! facial expression thing going on.

-D4

 

[Drakron]

Yes it did, that's where I played it. And yes, that lockpicking miningame was completely tailormade for the analogue controller, as you worked it just like you would a lockpick and the controller vibrated in the right way in the right place.

Just like Splinter Cell ...

I played the demo on PC and its was a question of getting the direction right, easier since you only need to bother with 8 directions and the sound/visual clue was enough.

Of course that pick lock mini game is at home in Splinter Cell and Thief 3 since they are not RPGs but stealth games, they add tension since many times (in Splinter Cell) you need to pick the lock as a patrol is away, in a RPG that SOULD be handled by character skill and not player skill.

 

[Section8]

Wait...did thief 3 come out for XBOX? I wasn't aware of this. Or am I just reading into this too much?

That's right. Why else do you think the UI is so fucking enormous?

Maybe, but it sounds like it could be expanded into an appropriate, interesting and challenging minigame with ease. In fact, it's almost exactly what I've always hoped for a Gothic minigame: <snip>

I'm not averse to any kind of "minigame" in an RPG provided:

* It's well integrated into the game itself. System Shock 2's node interface was a good example, and KOTOR's rail shooter bits are a how-not-to guide.
* Player skill doesn't invalidate character skill.
* It presents an appropriate challenge. In an action RPG, a reflex challenge makes sense, but in a "true" RPG, it should be a challenge of wits.
* Character skill is incorporated as more than a single check/roll
* It's a reasonable abstraction of the task at hand.
* It's enjoyable.

In other words, I'd love to see non-combat skills fleshed out to be something more than supplementary single die-roll skill checks.

To be fair, Thief 3 wasn't a roleplaying game, and the lockpicking minigame didn't take away from something stats should have dealt with. The series was basically a first person sneaker, and as such, I enjoyed it greatly.

It was still pretty pointless, and has less excuses for being no challenge. If you have a sliding scale of character lockpicking skill, then you have to try and make it fun and challenging for any point on that scale. Thief 3, which didn't have that scale just needed to make it fun and challenging for a universal character, which it didn't. Thankfully, it was pretty innocuous, and certainly no worse than the original system.

 

[Maia]

Of course that pick lock mini game is at home in Splinter Cell and Thief 3 since they are not RPGs but stealth games, they add tension since many times (in Splinter Cell) you need to pick the lock as a patrol is away, in a RPG that SOULD be handled by character skill and not player skill.

It never made sense to me that so many self-proclaimed CRPG purists argue that non-combat and non-dialogue activities of the character should be dull, non-interactive and decided by a single dice-roll. How is a lock-picking mini-game any different from "combat minigame", where input of the player is crucial? Or "dialogue minigame" (in the games which actually feature a full-fleshed dialogue) ergo? Why is nobody arguing that those should be decided by a simple dice-roll as well?


Now, I fully understand the consternation provoked by the persuasion minigame and continuing lack of real dialogues. But IMHO, it is still improvement over MW, although an extremely small one and certainly not what most fans and critics would have preferred.

 

[Blacklung]

Personally I think the time limit of the conversation and the lockpicking should be reversed in a way. Now one thing I did like about the Thief 3 lock pick game is that since you were doing it in real time you had a better chance of getting caught. From what I saw with the Oblivion lock picking, this is not the case, the game pauses and you are free to do the mini game. That's one of the greatest things about being a thief! The thrill of stealing and knowing that if you aren't fast and stealthy enough you might get caught.

Now with speech, yes of course if you are standing there just staring at a person while trying to make up your mind of what to say, perhaps they might start to get a bit creeped out. But, then again you are not going to be given a face change each time you think of an approach to conversation. Rather you would be perhaps taking note of their stance, of their body language, perhaps ask them about themselves first and determine whether they are more intellectual, smooth talker, naive, sarcastic, etc. While Bethesda is trying to take an interesting and more involved approach to diversity in conversation, I still believe this is not quite analgous enough to the situation, perhaps even too simplisitic. It seems more like a way to show off the diversity of the facial expressions in their game, which has already been seen if anyone has played HL2 and used Gary's Mod.

Here is one approach to the matter, you walk up to the person in question and give a simple greeting, ask about a topic, perhaps ask the character about themselves. At the end of the conversation you are given various hints, or cues about the characters nature (set in the game of course) which are present in number and clarity as determined by estimations of their's vs. your speechcraft skill. Then of course you are given something which allows you to boast, joke, etc. but are not given psychic premonitions of how they will react.

 

[Maia]

Personally I think the time limit of the conversation and the lockpicking should be reversed in a way. Now one thing I did like about the Thief 3 lock pick game is that since you were doing it in real time you had a better chance of getting caught.

Which only shows that catering to the "old school" can occasionally be as detrimental as catering to the mainstream. In order to appease the anti-minigame crowd Bethesda built in a way to bypass the active lock-picking with their beloved dice-roll. So, of course lockpicking couldn't be time-dependant, because roll would be always quicker. Really, I don't see why those people weren't just told to use the Open spell or scrolls if they hate doing any non-combat character activity that much.

I agree with you 100%. Lockpicking should be time-dependant and persuasion should be about correctly analyzing hints about NPC personality (or better yet a fully-fleshed dialogue, of course).

 

[Claw]

Really, I don't see why those people weren't just told to use the Open spell or scrolls if they hate doing any non-combat character activity that much.

You wouldn't, and can't be helped, I'm afraid.

 

[Lumpy]

Personally I think the time limit of the conversation and the lockpicking should be reversed in a way. Now one thing I did like about the Thief 3 lock pick game is that since you were doing it in real time you had a better chance of getting caught.

Which only shows that catering to the "old school" can occasionally be as detrimental as catering to the mainstream. In order to appease the anti-minigame crowd Bethesda built in a way to bypass the active lock-picking with their beloved dice-roll. So, of course lockpicking couldn't be time-dependant, because roll would be always quicker. Really, I don't see why those people weren't just told to use the Open spell or scrolls if they hate doing any non-combat character activity that much.

I agree with you 100%. Lockpicking should be time-dependant and persuasion should be about correctly analyzing hints about NPC personality (or better yet a fully-fleshed dialogue, of course).

God, Maia, the Open spells are for Mages, for Pete's sake. Are you suggesting that for someone to play a thief, he has to like Tetris? And if he doesn't, he can just play a mage.

 

[callehe]

Really, I don't see why those people weren't just told to use the Open spell or scrolls if they hate doing any non-combat character activity that much.

That was the most stupid thing i've ever heard, next you're going to suggest that instead of playing the persuasion minigame you could BRIBE the person instead! hah!

...


wait a minute...

 

[Maia]

. Are you suggesting that for someone to play a thief, he has to like Tetris? And if he doesn't, he can just play a mage.

Um, I am suggesting that for somebody to play a thief they should like thievly activities - like lockpicking and sneaking or the best approximation thereof a game can provide. It is funny how you don't suggest that combat should be decided by a single die-roll as well - after all what about people who don't like the combat system? Shouldn't they be able to play as great warriors regardless? .

It is because only the combat is truly interactive in most CRPGs that non-combat parts are ever more shafted, that CRPG becomes ever more synonymous with hack-and-slash. It is the reason why there have been no wholly non-violent options for the main quest since Fallout - because no Dev can imagine that just repeatedly rolling dice would be fun for a substantial subset of players.

 

[Data4]

Really, I don't see why those people weren't just told to use the Open spell or scrolls if they hate doing any non-combat character activity that much.

That was the most stupid thing i've ever heard, next you're going to suggest that instead of playing the persuasion minigame you could BRIBE the person instead! hah!

...


wait a minute...

LOL. Yeah, it's great seeing magic as a cop-out. What if my thief is opposed to magic for some reason? What if I "rolled" my character to have no magic skills at all? Guess I'm screwed, then. Of course, this is hypothetical, since we've been told that a stats-based alternative to the lockpicking minigame is implemented. I'm repeating myself, but I don't see why they couldn't have done the same thing for persuasion.

-D4

 

[Drakron]

Theif ... rogue classes actually tend to rely on non combat aspects to survive.

And that is the problem with some people that cannot gasp the concept of a rogue outside the archtype of a assassin or a burglar.

A rogue is simply a character that depends on strict non combat skills and one of those is simply being able to talk his way out of danger.

Also there are many players that enjoy exploring convertations trees, the fact that TES is ... lacking on that aspect does not mean we sould now be forced to play a rediculous mini game because we want to explore the little dialogue there is and once again forcing player skill over character skill in a distracting mini game.

And yes, perhaps there is a way to shut down the mini game but Bethsoft press releases tend to ignore player options in the game ... they seen to think this game user base wants to play mini games.

 

[Lumpy]

It is funny how you don't suggest that combat should be decided by a single die-roll as well

...
Turn Based?... And even in Morrowind, combat was still decided by a die roll. Now, player skill will be more important, but there's a difference between clicking a button to swing a sword, and playing a mini game.

 

[Maia]

It is funny how you don't suggest that combat should be decided by a single die-roll as well

...
Turn Based?... And even in Morrowind, combat was still decided by a die roll.

Now, I only played Fallout 2 and Wizardry 8 (which is not really turn-based, I gather, but close enough), but I don't recall a button that would allow me to bypass combat via a die-roll. In fact, in both of those games tactics were crucial for success in battle - and those tactics weren't decided by the character skill or by dice, but by the _player_. Character skills merely provided tools and options to the player - and it was up to the player to use them successfully. Even in MW you had to click your mouse and move the character occasionally as well as gulp potions. And playing a pure mage required actual tactics :wink:

The closest to the wholly character-skill governed combat in a CRPG that I have encountered was in Dungeon Siege 1. Didn't like it, myself, but there is no accounting for taste.

Now, player skill will be more important, but there's a difference between clicking a button to swing a sword, and playing a mini game.

And what's the difference, pray :D ? There is none - that's my whole point. Both combat and Fallout-like dialogue are as much mini-games as any other stat-dependant mini-game. They involve both character stats and player decisions (or twitch reflexes in the case of some combat systems) - and both are vital. But you have been conditioned to think that those mini-games are somehow integral to CRPGs, while, say lock-picking ones aren't.

Having an instant die-roll alternative for lock-picking removed one of its more interesting potential challenges - balance between time requirement and safety. No risk of being discovered, no fear of approaching guard, etc. IMHO, that's quite detrimental for sneaky gameplay, but you'd disagree, no doubt...

 

[Levski 1912]

Fallout-like dialogue are as much mini-games

Prepare to get ruthlessly flamed for such an asinine statement.

 

[Rat Keeng]

What was that game where, whenever you started lockpicking, you saw a picture of the lock from the side as if it'd been cut in half, and you had to use your mouse to shimmy the lockpicks into the proper positions, if you messed up you'd ruin one of your lockpicks etc. ? That was a good lockpicking minigame, plenty of different locks and such, as far as I can remember anyway...

I suppose you could look at dialogue trees as minigames, but I think the major difference is that while mini-games usually have either a win or lose outcome, dialogue trees (sometimes...) provide several paths, and are often helpful in shaping a character and establishing a personality, not to mention extract information and that. You could still argue it's a minigame, but even so, it's a different minigame every time you initiate it, whereas a persuasion minigame a lá the one in Oblibion sounds like it'll be a lot of the same gauge-n-click tripe, over and over again.

 

[Solik]

Prepare to get ruthlessly flamed for such an asinine statement.

It is sad that this statement is probably true. Because when you boil past showy exteriors and get to the core mechanics, she's absolutely right.

You could still argue it's a minigame, but even so, it's a different minigame every time you initiate it

Only superficially. Picking options has some effect; view the interface to determine which option to choose.

I think the only core difference is that dialogue choices can sometimes change major things long-term, while choices in something like persuasion just change disposition for one NPC -- something minor and generally alterable.

Also, about the lockpicking thing. I think a delay could have been implemented there, too. It's just that the player would have to stand there doing nothing while you hear the lock jiggling or so. Might be fun in cities when you're paranoid of getting caught, but certainly not when you're picking your 45th treasure chest deep in a dungeon that you've cleared...

 

[Section8]

Fallout-like dialogue are as much mini-games

Prepare to get ruthlessly flamed for such an asinine statement.

Okay, here goes. Maia, you're right on the money, and I think people here are getting too worked up over a preconceived definition of "mini-game."

 

[Tintin]

Fallout-like dialogue are as much mini-games

Prepare to get ruthlessly flamed for such an asinine statement.

Okay, here goes. Maia, you're right on the money, and I think people here are getting too worked up over a preconceived definition of "mini-game."

Ouch.......

 

[Drakron]

Now, I only played Fallout 2 and Wizardry 8 (which is not really turn-based, I gather, but close enough), but I don't recall a button that would allow me to bypass combat via a die-roll.

Bad memory then since Fallout handled random encounters by a roll, you COULD avoid those encounters (not all were combat of course)

In fact, in both of those games tactics were crucial for success in battle - and those tactics weren't decided by the character skill or by dice, but by the _player_.

You are right ... except, of course, I did not have to play a bloody mini game to fire a weapon ... oops, you wrong.

Character skills merely provided tools and options to the player - and it was up to the player to use them successfully. Even in MW you had to click your mouse and move the character occasionally as well as gulp potions. And playing a pure mage required actual tactics :wink:

Except that characters are not supposed to everything so a character designed for combat is going to be very bad at lock picking and diplomacy.

So there goes your options since you DONT really have then, when the option is a)Talk the way out b)Sneak the way out and c) Fight the way out and the character can only actually do option c then there is no really options for that character.

Your whole end up being that C&C Generals is a GREAT RPG since its full of tactics ...

And what's the difference, pray :D ? There is none - that's my whole point. Both combat and Fallout-like dialogue are as much mini-games as any other stat-dependant mini-game. They involve both character stats and player decisions (or twitch reflexes in the case of some combat systems) - and both are vital. But you have been conditioned to think that those mini-games are somehow integral to CRPGs, while, say lock-picking ones aren't.

Of course there is a diference.

Mini games are NOT stat dependent, when they are they stop being mini games and became a GUI.

My stand of a GUI is they sould be as simple and informative as they can, if the whole point about the Persuation GUI is a fugly, uninforming, immersion killer, outside the main GUI then you be right, problem is Bethsoft is calling it a mini game as its not ... its a interface.

Having an instant die-roll alternative for lock-picking removed one of its more interesting potential challenges - balance between time requirement and safety. No risk of being discovered, no fear of approaching guard, etc. IMHO, that's quite detrimental for sneaky gameplay, but you'd disagree, no doubt...

Ah but you see the roll die only have a lowerchance of success that playing the damn thing.

So what it REALLY does is penalize character skill and rewards player skill on using the GUI ...

 

[MrBrown]

Fallout-like dialogue are as much mini-games

Prepare to get ruthlessly flamed for such an asinine statement.

Okay, here goes. Maia, you're right on the money, and I think people here are getting too worked up over a preconceived definition of "mini-game."

I disagree.

Fallout dialogue (or most classic CRPG dialogue for that matter) does not involve any player skill (unless you count reading comprehension ). As such, they're not gaming at all. The ability to choose a response to dialogue in these kind of systems is equivalent to the ability to choose whether you go to Redding or Broken Hills first.

They're certainly a sub-something to the whole game, I'll give you that.

(And then again, I don't think computer games are 100% games anyway.)

EDIT: Forgot a few keywords.

 

[Lumpy]

And what's the difference, pray :D ? There is none - that's my whole point. Both combat and Fallout-like dialogue are as much mini-games as any other stat-dependant mini-game. They involve both character stats and player decisions (or twitch reflexes in the case of some combat systems) - and both are vital. But you have been conditioned to think that those mini-games are somehow integral to CRPGs, while, say lock-picking ones aren't.

Of course there is a diference.

Mini games are NOT stat dependent, when they are they stop being mini games and became a GUI.

My stand of a GUI is they sould be as simple and informative as they can, if the whole point about the Persuation GUI is a fugly, uninforming, immersion killer, outside the main GUI then you be right, problem is Bethsoft is calling it a mini game as its not ... its a interface.

Drakron, the mini-games in Oblivion are still governed by character skills.
Maia, Fallout's dialogue was a sort of mini game, but there's a difference between choosing a smart response and clicking as fast as you can on a circle while looking at a NPC's face. If you can't understand that, well...