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Fallout Fallout 4 Thread

Hace El Oso

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Quest markers aren't generally a dumbing down thing. If you use them to mark a general area to avoid wasting time on an otherwise yuge map, it's a good thing.
If you do it Bethesda style, where a quest says: "can you find the fabled treasure nobody found in 1000 years?", then mark it on the map so you just need to go there and pick it up, that's horrible.

It's all about balance.
:balance:

With quest markers you don't have to be able to read and you don't even have to be able to listen. There's less and less need to pay any attention whatsoever.
 

Funposter

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Quest markers have a place in open world games with NPC schedules as long as a few pre-requisites are carried out. If you're told, "Go talk to Ontus Vanin in the Imperial City" as a quest objective, the quest marker shouldn't just point you straight towards him. I'm quite happy for a marker to appear at the Imperial City without any other context and essentially function as the quest giver having marked the location on your map. Then you go to the Imperial City and either need to search without further direction, or you can talk to NPCs to get further directions. Maybe some don't know him, maybe some know where he lives and can direct you to the district of the city (marker added to Talos Plaza) or you might have been lucky enough to stumble upon a friend of his, and with a high enough disposition they will direct you to his home (marker added to his house). Maybe others know his general schedule, like the merchants of stores he goes to on a regular basis. If you ask the owner of the Mystic Emporium about him, they might be willing to tell you that he shops there and at a few other stores on all days of the week between the hours of 2pm and 8pm (conditional quest markers added to all of Mystic Emporium, Rindir's Staffs, Gilded Carafe, Main Ingredient, First Edition during those hours). Finally, speak to the owner of an inn/hotel in the city and they might confirm what time he eats at their establishment (conditional quest marker added to Tiber Septim Hotel between 12-2pm, and Foaming Flask between 8pm-12am for weekdays only), or if speaking to the owner of an inn he doesn't frequent, they might know which ones he does go to (markers added to Tiber Septim Hotel and/or Foaming Flask with no conditions). Ontus Vanin is also a former Battlemage at the Arcane University, so some citizens may direct you there (quest marker added to Arcane University) and members of the university may be able to direct you to any one of these clues, having been colleagues and knowing a little about his schedule.

Once the player has gained all of this info, or perhaps something like 4/6 or 5/6 clues, a marker could appear directly on Ontus Vanin so that the player can beeline towards him in case they've missed him somehow while gathering clues. Maybe it doesn't need to be that complex, but just some work done by the player in order to be directed towards NPCs especially if they're the kind to move around a lot.

The problem is that this requires a lot of voice acting, and nothing about the NPC's schedule can change after that VA work has been done. That's why you get quest markers. It's not just an accessibility issue.
 
Last edited:
Unwanted
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Codex Year of the Donut
Quest markers aren't generally a dumbing down thing. If you use them to mark a general area to avoid wasting time on an otherwise yuge map, it's a good thing.
If you do it Bethesda style, where a quest says: "can you find the fabled treasure nobody found in 1000 years?", then mark it on the map so you just need to go there and pick it up, that's horrible.

It's all about balance.
:balance:

With quest markers you don't have to be able to read and you don't even have to be able to listen. There's less and less need to pay any attention whatsoever.
so you mean just like irl when someone can point at a map instead of giving you verbal directions?
 

Bliblablubb

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If you're told, "Go talk to Ontus Vanin in the Imperial City" as a quest objective, the quest marker shouldn't just point you straight towards him
Ironically, the most asked question on the internets about Morrowind back then was: "Where in Balmorra is Caius Cosades????", so as far as Bethesda was concerned, the average player wasn't even capable of reading.
And my observations in ESO and FO76 actually confirmed that. :hahano:
 

Bliblablubb

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so you mean just like irl when someone can point at a map instead of giving you verbal directions?
Wait, people near you can still read and use maps, instead of needing a constant voice telling them "In 5 m turn left and look up. You have reached your target."?
:updatedmytxt:
 

Funposter

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If you're told, "Go talk to Ontus Vanin in the Imperial City" as a quest objective, the quest marker shouldn't just point you straight towards him
Ironically, the most asked question on the internets about Morrowind back then was: "Where in Balmorra is Caius Cosades????", so as far as Bethesda was concerned, the average player wasn't even capable of reading.
The average consumer wants to enjoy their video games in bite-sized, 30 minute chunks which are comprised mostly of loud noises and flashing lights.
 

Bliblablubb

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The average consumer wants to enjoy their video games in bite-sized, 30 minute chunks which are comprised mostly of loud noises and flashing lights.
As I often said before, when Bethesda decided to focus on the console market for Lolblivion, they must have made an internal list looking smth like this:
  • Shiny graphics and hype trailers are the most important thing to sell the game
  • Consoletards can't think on their own and have no sense of direction, they need markers and handholding to play
  • They don't listen to NPCs either, sum everything up in 2 sentences on the screen
  • They play 30-45 min on average and get easily bored, place awsome action every 5 meters
  • Story must be shallow and easy to follow, as they don't remember what they heard 5 mins ago anyway
  • Every problem must be solvable with a blunt object

And that is why we get from Beth what we get. Ironically that list pretty much applies to hollywood movies as well these days because it prints moneys. Sad.
:negative:
 

Hace El Oso

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so you mean just like irl when someone can point at a map instead of giving you verbal directions?

You mean like someone pointing at a paper map that you have to be able to orient yourself and your destination on while telling you what they want you to do and why? Yes, that sounds perfect.
 

Bad Sector

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Yes I completely agree, we don't necessarily need to go back to Morrowind-style 'follow these fucking obscure directions, have fun fuckwad!' for every quest (although sometimes I think it can be fine and promotes natural exploration) - for a lot quests it's perfectly OK to mark a specific area and then let me explore that area.

IMO it depends on how they are used. If it makes sense in-world for you to be able to have said marker, then it is fine - e.g. you are already supposed to know some area because it is a widely known landmark/city/whatever and you aren't new there, or you have an actual map and the NPC you talk with points it on your map. Note that this is basically how it works with Morrowind.

For a game set in modern times or -more importantly- sci-fi, markers make much more sense to exist considering that even nowadays you get that functionality in your mobile phone, but again it has to make sense in-game: having a quest to find someone named Betty Buttocks who works at a bar in the city center wont give you a marker for her, but you should be able to have markers for all nearby bars in the city center. Then if after finding and visiting the bar she works at her boss tells you that you can find her in her apartment, you can get a marker to her apartment because it makes sense for the boss to know her address.
 

Valdetiosi

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Yeah, with the current graphics to make invidual looking NPCs so you wouldn't confuse them from one another, quest markers are a blessing. Now I don't need to remember how people look like, only that they have arrow on top of their head.
 

Robotigan

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The average consumer wants to enjoy their video games in bite-sized, 30 minute chunks which are comprised mostly of loud noises and flashing lights.
My controversial opinion is that if something isn't fun in a hour long increments, it's probably not very fun at all. If you're going to ask the player to spend so much time looking for their next objective, the search by itself needs to be compelling gameplay. Gameplay with its own win/fail states (or at least hints that you're pursuing the right/wrong lead), integration with roleplaying systems, and strategic options; it's basically like designing a puzzle. In D&D, there's like a million ways to search for something. You can roll for any number of checks and interrogate whoever you want. Or in adventures games like Zelda, navigating through an area is often presented as a mini-puzzle. If the devs can't fill an activity with interesting gameplay, it's sensible to just cut it out of the game altogether.
 

Zombra

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Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut I helped put crap in Monomyth
Quest markers aren't generally a dumbing down thing. If you use them to mark a general area to avoid wasting time on an otherwise yuge map, it's a good thing.
You're close. Quest markers absolutely are "generally" a dumbing down thing. They can be a good solution in certain contexts ... but that is the exception. In general, a game world that is navigable without training wheels is smarter, more immersive, more involving, and more elegant.
 
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wishbonetail

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You're close. Quest markers absolutely are "generally" a dumbing down thing. They can be a good solution in certain contexts ... but this is the exception. In general, a game world that is navigable without training wheels is smarter, more immersive, more involving, and more elegant.
All this talk reminded me of survival horror game called Rule of a Rose on PS2. It does not have an especially good gameplay or level design but navigating there is done in a form of various suble( or not) hints in the environment (like traces of leaves, white bunny, butterfly, sounds, marks on walls, dog sniffing out stuff) so you almost never get lost and at the same time do not feel like a trained monkey following compass.
 

Late Bloomer

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Has anyone here actually finished the game with the Railroad as their faction choice? Getting close to being done with DAO and was thinking of another Fallout 4 playthrough. Just realized I never have actually sided with the Railroad.
 

Late Bloomer

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Don't bother. It's not worth to spend your time on this game.

Well I haven't bothered finishing the game with the Railroad. But Fallout 4 is quite enjoyable to me. I wanted to know what some reasons were for people finishing the game with the Railroad as their faciton.
 

Silverfish

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Has anyone here actually finished the game with the Railroad as their faction choice? Getting close to being done with DAO and was thinking of another Fallout 4 playthrough. Just realized I never have actually sided with the Railroad.

The one-two punch of the password to their secret base being "Railroad" and Deacon explaining to me that the arrows drawn on their messages indicate directions basically ruled them out for me. Good luck, king.
 

wishbonetail

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Railroad should be destroyed and forgotten. Such faction could not exist. They have a literal war above their heads, with mutants, raiders, gunners and hostile fauna. They have no resources and live in a crypt, surrounded by ruins and radioactive water. And the main problem for them is "synth emancipation"? Fuck this worldbuilding.
 

Late Bloomer

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I guess I would need to go to Reddit to find someone who had a reason to finish the game with the Railroad as the faction of choice.
 
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They're the anti slavery faction (the inspiration is pretty obvious), just with a scifi touch by making the slaves into cyborgs.

Third generation synthetics represent the pinnacle of synth technology, being virtually indistinguishable from natural-born humans right down to the cellular level. Each Gen 3 synth is built from lab-grown bones, muscles and other tissues that are assembled and brought to life at the Institute's Robotics lab, and are "born" with the bodies and mental faculties of full-grown adult humans. Though entirely biological, each Gen 3 synth contains a neurological implant inside their brain allowing them to be "programmed" and manipulated via voice commands. This implant cannot be detected or removed without killing the synth. Synths are also installed with additional components, such as neuro-servos and other implants.
 

markec

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Every faction created by Bethesda is retarded.
 

Sykar

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If you're told, "Go talk to Ontus Vanin in the Imperial City" as a quest objective, the quest marker shouldn't just point you straight towards him
Ironically, the most asked question on the internets about Morrowind back then was: "Where in Balmorra is Caius Cosades????", so as far as Bethesda was concerned, the average player wasn't even capable of reading.
And my observations in ESO and FO76 actually confirmed that. :hahano:

Playing the English version, I found him as a non-native speaker playing with a dictionary next to me to help me when I was not sure what a word means. What excuse do native speakers have?
 

Funposter

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If you're told, "Go talk to Ontus Vanin in the Imperial City" as a quest objective, the quest marker shouldn't just point you straight towards him
Ironically, the most asked question on the internets about Morrowind back then was: "Where in Balmorra is Caius Cosades????", so as far as Bethesda was concerned, the average player wasn't even capable of reading.
And my observations in ESO and FO76 actually confirmed that. :hahano:

Playing the English version, I found him as a non-native speaker playing with a dictionary next to me to help me when I was not sure what a word means. What excuse do native speakers have?
The average consumer plays with their brain turned off in 30 minute segments after work/school. That's it. They view video games as light entertainment, and reading is hard.
 

Sykar

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Modern gamer decision making in FO4:
160a7b7a3f5cfa719b9e34bc99f21d2e.jpg
 

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