Official RPG Codex Discord Server

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

Review Follow up on Gauntlet: Seven Sorrows

Discussion in 'News & Content Feedback' started by Vault Dweller, Dec 13, 2005.

  1. taks Liturgist

    taks
    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    753
    it should also be noted that rpgdot is reporting that midway was shut down. the boat was sinking, apparently.

    taks
     
    ^ Top  
  2. Major_Blackhart Codexia Lord Sodom Patron

    Major_Blackhart
    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2002
    Messages:
    16,726
    Location:
    Jersey for now
    When did this occur?
     
    ^ Top  
  3. Shock Novice

    Shock
    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2005
    Messages:
    33
    Probably the moment they hired John Romero.
     
    ^ Top  
  4. Shagnak Shagadelic

    Shagnak
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2003
    Messages:
    4,629
    Location:
    Arse of the world, New Zealand
    Unfortunately for the Aussie industry, they took (ex-) Ratbag games with them.
    Pity. I remember back when they were the little house that could.
     
    ^ Top  
  5. DarkUnderlord Professional Throne Sitter

    DarkUnderlord
    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2002
    Messages:
    25,783
    Yup, Ratbag officially closed it's doors with last drinks yesterday (or was that today?). Funny they only bought them out for $7 Million (worth of Midway shares) about 5 months ago... Wonder how much those are worth now? I thought Midway were keeping some studios open.
     
    ^ Top  
  6. Section8 Erudite

    Section8
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2002
    Messages:
    4,321
    Location:
    Wardenclyffe
    That's a real shame, I quite enjoyed Ratbag's games. Here's to hoping their devs fall on their feet.
     
    ^ Top  
  7. gromit Arcane

    gromit
    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2005
    Messages:
    2,773
    Location:
    Gentrification Station
    Here's hoping they land rolling, so as to not break their ankles when they fall on their feet.
     
    ^ Top  
  8. Duh Novice

    Duh
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2005
    Messages:
    4
    Yeah. As VD would have known if he'd actually paid any attention to Seven Sorrows' ugly development rather than just saving up for a cheap dig, practically everything Sawyer contributed to the project - the combat mechanics, the skill trees, the itemisation, the backstory, the plot progression and script, and the two new characters - was removed when the game was gutted. To all extents and purposes he worked on a different, unreleased action-RPG.

    Which you still would have hated, but hey.
     
    ^ Top  
  9. LlamaGod Cipher

    LlamaGod
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    Messages:
    3,095
    Location:
    Yes
    if JE stayed it probably would've still sucked, but not as bad.

    JE Sawyer sucks at game design, sirs.
     
    ^ Top  
  10. Seven Erudite

    Seven
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2003
    Messages:
    1,728
    Location:
    North of the Glow
    Any one recall IWD2, worst RPG that I've played in a long time.

    Who was lead designer on that again?
     
    ^ Top  
  11. Greatatlantic Erudite

    Greatatlantic
    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,683
    Location:
    The Heart of It All
    I just saw an ad for this game trumpeting, "hack and slash redefined". Just thought I'd share that.
     
    ^ Top  
  12. Section8 Erudite

    Section8
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2002
    Messages:
    4,321
    Location:
    Wardenclyffe
    If I could have a super power, it would be the ability to take away word use priviledges from marketers. The first two would be "immersion" and "redefine", closely followed by "compelling."
     
    ^ Top  
  13. gromit Arcane

    gromit
    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2005
    Messages:
    2,773
    Location:
    Gentrification Station
    Who, the one working on that "Herve's broke, get it out the door" rush-job that managed to mix 2E and 3E in a logical manner, addressing the systemic needs of RTwP in the Infinity engine, making a broken combat scheme engaging enough to (almost) sustain a pure-combat game? I think it was Mizuguchi, wasn't it?

    Anyway, I wouldn't rate IWD2 very highly myself, given that all I wanted at the time was an RPG that didn't get dragged down by forced real-time combat, but give the man some credit - he does well with rules and the design of his encounters. If it makes any sense as a compliment, the game did not suck my nuts nearly as much as I thought it was going to, and was -miles- beyond how it could have turned out. Damn it, and here I had forgotten the whole "Fallout 3 / IWD / Fallout 3? / IWD again / I Don't Know This 'FR6' of Which You Speak" debacle. I hope he crams whatever of Black Hound they still think is cool into NWN2.
     
    ^ Top  
  14. LlamaGod Cipher

    LlamaGod
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    Messages:
    3,095
    Location:
    Yes
    IWD2 and his "great" design ideas for Van Buren are the reasons why he sucks.
     
    ^ Top  
  15. bryce777 Erudite

    bryce777
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,225
    Location:
    In my country the system operates YOU
    It was honestly really hard for me to get into looking forward to BG3 or Fallout 3.

    I don't see how anyone could stand to play IWD The level design alone was so poor that they all deserved to be fired. You literally just had ZERO choice in the path to go through an annoyingly large section of the game.
     
    ^ Top  
  16. Sammael Liturgist

    Sammael
    Joined:
    May 16, 2003
    Messages:
    312
    Location:
    Hell on Earth
    Er... do the words "linear dungeon crawl" mean anything to you?

    Sometimes, I wonder if people even read previews before making purchases. Apparently not.
     
    ^ Top  
  17. bryce777 Erudite

    bryce777
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,225
    Location:
    In my country the system operates YOU
    There is a difference between linear in the sense of plotline, and literally having each step you take forced upon you. The first one was ok for what it was, bt the second one was a joke.
     
    ^ Top  
  18. Drakron Arcane

    Drakron
    Joined:
    May 19, 2005
    Messages:
    6,319
    Missing the point.

    A Dungeon Crawl is pretty much "kill and loot stuff", IWD is just that ... tactical combat and loot.

    IWD2 can only be compared to IWD and IWD2 despite its flaws was a improvement.

    IWD2 recognized race, gender and even class at several points as IWD did not, the point were IWD2 starts to fail is when we return to the Tree city thing and it goes downhill form there but still compare the fact the game REACTED to what the player did (such as if you dont save the villagers you have to face then as undead later on) that was something IWD never did.

    I am not going to hide I am somewhat a fan of J.E. Sawyer because unlike some developers he was someone that actually talked over things and show why he made some design choices ... he is no Bethsoft developer with "trust us" without explaining WHY such decisions were made.
     
    ^ Top  
  19. bryce777 Erudite

    bryce777
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,225
    Location:
    In my country the system operates YOU
    IWD one was much better.

    I have nothing against a game where you just kill and loot stuff, if it is done in an interesting way. When you have shit combat, ridiculous random encounters and endless, senseless spawns in a few places, then I am not interested. When you take that and throw in a very poor pathfinding system, then make a bunch of maps where half the game is in basically an estremely narrow corridor where you have no choice whatsoever as far as even what hallway to explore, and you have a recipe for a truly terrible game.I don't see how anyone could be a big fan of JE; he has never evenr eally put anything out! Also, he has some stupid ideas such as how great realtime is for fallout.
     
    ^ Top  
  20. Greatatlantic Erudite

    Greatatlantic
    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,683
    Location:
    The Heart of It All
    Correction!!

    I just saw the ad again, and it was actually, "Hack and Slash Combat Redefined". Don't say I never admit mistake.

    EDIT: Did it again! Its "Hack and Slash Combat Reinvented"! I know no one cares about the particulars, but the actual quote is even worse in my opinion. How do you reinvent a gameplay that suppose to be getting back to the basics of gaming?
     
    ^ Top  
  21. Stark Liturgist

    Stark
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2004
    Messages:
    770
    please add the word "realistic" to your list too.
     
    ^ Top  
  22. kris Arcane

    kris
    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2004
    Messages:
    7,920
    Location:
    Lulea, Sweden
    Truly epic post! You immersed me in the forums with this reinventing of positing in such a innovative way. Epic posts like this redefine the way we should approach positing and must be the epithomy of all your epic posting experience troughout the years. A true classic.
     
    ^ Top  
  23. Saint_Proverbius Arcane Patron

    Saint_Proverbius
    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2002
    Messages:
    11,192
    Location:
    Behind you.
    Rushed out the door? IWD2 took over a year to make starting with an engine they've had numerous years of experience with, pre-existing art to reuse, and so forth. Hell, they spent two and a half times as long making IWD2 as they did with IWD.

    I'm not saying that JE SUX or anything by pointing that out, but I wouldn't exactly say IWD2 was rushed out the door. They had a hell of a lot longer time on it than they did on the first one.
     
    ^ Top  
  24. Jora Arcane

    Jora
    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2003
    Messages:
    1,115
    Location:
    Finland
    Wasn't the initial development cycle something like four months? If so, I would say that had to have a negative effect on the project. I remember Sawyer saying he had less than a day to come up with a story.
     
    ^ Top  
  25. Sammael Liturgist

    Sammael
    Joined:
    May 16, 2003
    Messages:
    312
    Location:
    Hell on Earth
    The original development schedule was indeed INSANELY short. Josh did have to come up with a plot in 24 hours. After it became obvious that the schedule couldn't be made, they started getting extensions. Designing a game while knowing you'll have a year to work on it is a completely different matter than designing a game when you think you'll have four months, which get extended to six months, then eight months, and finally a full year.

    Things got out of hand when they started implementing 3E rules. Which, Saint, meant that a huge chunk of the engine had to be re-written, considering that idiot Bioware programmers hard-coded most of the game rules instead of making game logic and engine separate. It is my personal belief, however, that an IWD2 without 3E rules would have sold significantly worse. 3E rules added more to the game than, say, the entire Ice Palace level.
     
    ^ Top  

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.