Forgotten Realms vs. Greyhawk

[Phelot]

I really like the Dalelands, but sadly they've been ignored since the Goldbox games... well.. other than that new dalelands game coming out or that already is out, but that looks awful.

 

[King Crispy]

Some... interesting opinions and comments in here so far. I think a pretty good reading of any particular Codexer's outlook on RPG's in general can be gleaned from their opinion on which D&D campaign setting(s) they prefer, if any.

q.v. Volourn.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Hey Crispy, you mention the overabundance of epic level mages in Forgotten Realms.

I know it is a stupid question, but do you mean overabundance of epic level mages in games such as the Neverwinter Nights series, or their overabundance in actual PnP games as well?

I ask, because PnPers often say that PnP sessions are more restrained than the typical computer game.

 

[circ]

FR has all the shitty as fuck hack writers. Greyhawk doesn't have any novels that I know of. That's enough for me.

 

[Humanophage]

Forgotten Realms, by far. It is considerably more fleshed out in games, rulebooks, and novels. I view it as, essentially, the default fantasy setting. I am quite certain that it also had the largest number of authors contributing to it among D&D settings, which makes it less of a concept world and more similar to proper mythology produced collectively out of diverse elements. As mentioned before, I think it works best on low-to-medium levels.

Greyhawk might very well be my least favourite setting in D&D. It is a direct competitor to FR, but is inferior in every aspect important for a fantasy setting. Everything it provides is already covered in FR with greater vigour. Indeed, it feels like some sort of a sample setting. It was a little annoying how it was employed in D&D3E rulebooks as the default setting, where its elements seemed as if taken out of the blue to illustrate how, say, religion can work. It also has features I strongly dislike about 80s fantasy, such as that it doesn't take itself entirely seriously and isn't entirely detached from the real world (even mentioning Earth).

Ravenloft and Birthright, duh.

What's wrong with Planescape?

 

[King Crispy]

Hey Crispy, you mention the overabundance of epic level mages in Forgotten Realms.

I know it is a stupid question, but do you mean overabundance of epic level mages in games such as the Neverwinter Nights series, or their overabundance in actual PnP games as well?

I ask, because PnPers often say that PnP sessions are more restrained than the typical computer game.

Forgotten Realms as both a PnP and CRPG setting is permeated with magic. Lots and lots of it. That results in many high-level and high-power characters throughout. They own shops, they rule kingdoms, and they explore every inch of the place (at least that's the impression I've gotten over the years of being a fan of FR). I don't like that.

Greyhawk, being originally designed by Gygax and his buddies, is decidedly low-magic. Sure, his own characters rose to the higher levels, but that should be expected and I think is earned (gotta give the old guy his due, rest his soul). But ramping down of experience and magic inflation is always a good thing in my view.

So yeah, it's everything with the Realms. The people are magical. The buildings are magical. The land itself has been largely formed with magic. Greyhawk and Oerth have more of a "natural" feel, and I think that's best.

 

[Mastermind]

High magic settings = more gameplay options. The quality of those options varies from game to game but i think that all things being equal, high magic > low magic. You can always have low magic stories within a high magic setting. But a high magic story within a low magic setting is impossible by definition.

 

[King Crispy]

But a high magic story within a low magic setting is impossible by definition.

And is thus extraordinary. Extraordinary used to be a good thing.

 

[gromit]

I really like the Dalelands, but sadly they've been ignored since the Goldbox games... well.. other than that new dalelands game coming out or that already is out, but that looks awful.

 

[J_C]

FR has all the shitty as fuck hack writers. Greyhawk doesn't have any novels that I know of. That's enough for me.

But FR has some good writers. While Greyhawk doesn't have any.

 

[Mackerel]

Greyhawk, being originally designed by Gygax and his buddies, is decidedly low-magic.

Somebody never played The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth module.

 

[tilting_msh]

Is that what the actual box art was going to be?

Sigh. What could have been...

It's too bad JE didn't finish the Black Hound NWN mod he was working on.

 

[Volourn]

"Greyhawk, being originally designed by Gygax and his buddies, is decidedly low-magic."

No, it isn't.


As for campaigns being high orm low, setting is irreleavnt since it depends on the groups.

But, basic GH is N0T low magic. Do you even fukkin' know what low magic means? FFS

 

[Mastermind]

But a high magic story within a low magic setting is impossible by definition.

And is thus extraordinary. Extraordinary used to be a good thing.

And is thus non-existent, not extraordinary. You can have a high magic setting with areas that are not high magic and focus on those while hinting or only giving a small taste of the high magic available. If a low magic setting has high magic components it can't be credibly called a low magic setting.

 

[King Crispy]

But, basic GH is N0T low magic. Do you even fukkin' know what low magic means? FFS

Okay, I'll go there.

To me, low magic is the same as low power. Greyhawk is low power relative to other settings in that its characters, both primary and those in the background are rarely above the teens as far as their character levels.

Correspodingly, and again, as Gygax preferred, Greyhawk has a much lower frequency of magical items available, whether in possession of characters or available to be looted. Indeed this is completely dependant on the DM and the players involved, as no setting is immune to a Monty Haul influence (and destruction), but in general I believe this holds to be true from indications of all its source material, most of its modules, its history, etc.

FR, in comparison, is literally dripping with magic. I don't think this can be disputed.

Now, I may be wrong in my definition of low magic, but now at least you get the gist of where I was coming from in referencing it. In fact, I think one of the main differences between GH and FR, one that even defines the latter, is the relative prevalence of magical items, locations, beings, etc. Without pervasive magic, FR would not be what it is. Magic merely enhances Greyhawk; it does not define it.

 

[Marobug]

I really like the Dalelands, but sadly they've been ignored since the Goldbox games... well.. other than that new dalelands game coming out or that already is out, but that looks awful.

I once had a dream where bioware canceled dragon age 3 and mass effect 3, went through a massive layoff, hired chris avellone, told EA to fuck off and then announced Baldur's gate III.

Fuck yes.

 

[J_C]

I once had a dream where bioware canceled dragon age 3 and mass effect 3, went through a massive layoff, hired chris avellone, told EA to fuck off and then announced Baldur's gate III.

Fuck yes.

I just had an orgasm.

 

[PorkaMorka]

I unironically enjoyed reading Faiths & Avatars,Powers & Pantheons and Demihuman Deities whenever I could get them away from my DM.

FR's terribleness seems really overrated. As long as you don't use the uber NPCs much it is perfectly serviceable generic fantasy.

The vast majority of settings created purely for video games are far worse than FR.

 

[Lesifoere]

FR is full of faggots. Nuke it from orbit; it's the only way to be sure.

Exterminatus.

FR has all the shitty as fuck hack writers. Greyhawk doesn't have any novels that I know of. That's enough for me.

But FR has some good writers. While Greyhawk doesn't have any.

Like who? Paul S. Kemp is shit, just to name one. Greenwood and Salvatore are worthless stains.

FR takes itself so damn seriously it's funny.

 

[Mastermind]

I once had a dream where bioware canceled dragon age 3 and mass effect 3, went through a massive layoff, hired chris avellone, told EA to fuck off and then announced Baldur's gate III.

Fuck yes.

I just had an orgasm.

I just had a psychotic blackout and woke up in a pool of blood with three people dead and a cat's severed head in my mouth. I'd rather BG stay dead that be touched by the vile fingers of Fagellone.

 

[felipepepe]

many high-level and high-power characters throughout. They own shops, they rule kingdoms, and they explore every inch of the place (at least that's the impression I've gotten over the years of being a fan of FR). I don't like that.

Yeah, you don't feel like playing a world where some dudes are badass did some cool stuff....you feel like the NPCs already finished playing, did everything there's to be done and are just laughing at your n00bish efforts.

It's mostly what I imagine it must feel to started playing a long-lived MMO such as WoW nowadays.

 

[Elwro]

As for books set in Greyhawk, well, my Collector's Edition of ToEE came with the "ToEE" book. I read it since I had paid for it. I have read worse things, I guess...

 

[King Crispy]

There are the Gord the Rogue books too, by Gary himself. I've never read any of them, but I haven't heard good things about them.

Can someone else comment?

 

[GarfunkeL]

I prefer FR, simply because it has everything in it, so you don't have to create stuff from scratch. Of course, if the DM wishes to do so, feel free and there's still space in FR for that as well. Yeah, running a low-magic campaign can be tricky but it is doable. And no-one forces you to utilize the (in)famous NPCs. Bioware did a disservice to us all with their inclusion of Elminster, Drizzt and Volo into BG.

Anyway, after Gold Box games, we've only had two games in the Icewind Dale and four on the Sword Coast, with NWN2 expansions showing us a glimpse of the rest of the world of FR. Hey, how about a D&D game in Kara-Tur - the continent on the opposite side of Toril from Faerun? Or Maztica?

You could make a great RPG where the player takes control of a party that belongs to an Amnish excursion to Maztica (ie Spanish conquistadors in South-America - except both sides have magic) - decide whether to try to enslave the natives or go rogue, while out-witting another expedition by Lantan.

 

[Erebus]

But FR has some good writers. While Greyhawk doesn't have any.

Like who? Paul S. Kemp is shit, just to name one. Greenwood and Salvatore are worthless stains.

I rather liked the Troy Denning novels I've read.

I used to think of Ed Greenwood as one of the most truly godawful writers ever until I discovered that the french translations I'd been reading often removed more than a quarter (and sometimes close to 40%) of the original texts. I'm still fairly sure he's a horrible writer, but I no longer know just how horrible.


Has anyone taken any interest in 4E Forgotten Realms ? From what I could read, the changes made to the setting were rather extravagant (on the plus side, the superpowered good NPCs seem to be either dead or depowered).


Planescape has long been my favorite D&D setting (even before Torment was released). Birthright had some interesting stuff, but I suspect giving each player his own kingdom would be extremely hard to manage. I really didn't know much about Dark Sun until I played Shattered Lands.