Fucking RTwP in Project Eternity? HOW DOES IT WORK? TB vs RTwP

[tuluse]

I do get what you are saying. I have played all of the IE games multiple times. I have tried the "hands off" approach.....and its just not fun at all. So the only real choice for me is turn off the AI and pause every round.......which is sometimes okay.

Like I said, no RPG game that I know of has a good RTwP system. The IE games were average, and could be done much better (just not having a turn based system that you force into RT to start with).

 

[Gozma]

the argument that rtwp destroys game balance by giving the player "perfect micromanagement" is totally bankrupt, specifically because of those round or cooldown-based underlying mechanics that all rtwp games have and gozma grudgingly admits might have actually made some of the IE encounters challenging and tactical. perfect micro is irrelevant and pausing five times a second to achieve it is not only ocd and not very fun, but not even beneficial to the player.

The balance thing is a theoretical concern that I brought up again in response to a dumb thing someone said - that if you added pause to an RT game that it wouldn't lose anything. The combat in the IE games is already pretty far removed from RT concerns, aside maybe from nursemaiding pathfinding. My main criticism of IE games is that they are slow and irritating and the pseudo-RT layer was only ever put there to 1) make the subset of IE players that are retarded think they are playing Diablo through a glass darkly and 2) allow players to tolerate endless Secret of the Silver Blades level trash combat

 

[I_am_Ian]

I have a hard time embracing any concept that exists as a compromise. RTwP is the epitome of the decline.

 

[J1M]

Pretty much this. Either watch the game play itself badly, or pause every two seconds.

Knowing when to pause, and how to direct your party members in such a way that you will not have to pause too often, is actually part of the challenge of RTwP.

This is something that people who "get" RTwP mechanics understand intuitively, to the point that it's hard for them to understand people who don't.

Holy fuck. Nine god-damn pages and you are still acting like managing RTwP requires some sort of special ability or insight. Stop it.

RTwP isn't difficult. Nobody here had trouble figuring it out. Everyone here knows how to play these games because they are intentionally easy.

The only difference is that you find them fun because you can't see the strings.

 

[Spectacle]

A lot of people in this thread seem to be mainly trying to justify to themselves why they prefer turn-based to RTwP. Sometimes it's OK to say that you enjoy X more than Y just because that's what you like.

But unless you're using Wisdom as a dump stat you should be able to realize that personal preference is just that; personal.

 

[GordonHalfman]

Getting the pacing right and finding a balance between screensaver and microhell is obviously one the things that distinguishes a good Rtwp system from a bad one. I don't really understand how the same game can have both problems though.

 

[J_C]

LOL for pausing every second in RTwP games. It seems I was doing something wrong, because in the games that use this system, I only had to use pause a couple of times in battles. And if it was an easy battle, I didn't use it at all, just let my party to destroy enemies without micro-managing.

As Infintron said it, if you pause every milisecond, you are doing something wrong. I guess you want to control every aspect of the battle with 100% accuracy. Move the characters to the exact position, changing targets immediately, using spells in the milisecond they are available. But most RTwP games don't require this, because they are not as complex as a grand-strategy for example. You issue commands a few times in a battle, and if you are doing it right, you win. You can be more efficient if you pause every moment, but it is a hassle, and doesn't have too much of a benefit.

 

[Johannes]

the argument that rtwp destroys game balance by giving the player "perfect micromanagement" is totally bankrupt, specifically because of those round or cooldown-based underlying mechanics that all rtwp games have and gozma grudgingly admits might have actually made some of the IE encounters challenging and tactical. perfect micro is irrelevant and pausing five times a second to achieve it is not only ocd and not very fun, but not even beneficial to the player.

The balance thing is a theoretical concern that I brought up again in response to a dumb thing someone said - that if you added pause to an RT game that it wouldn't lose anything.

That's not what I said. The point was that if you've got a RT game with few enough units and slow enough pace, the games paradigm won't really change with the addition of pause. You'll do the same things but just more accurately and you have time to think, like you would have in TB. Which has both positive and negative implications, of course - but doesn't ruin or make the game unbalanceable by any means.

RTwP isn't difficult. Nobody here had trouble figuring it out. Everyone here knows how to play these games because they are intentionally easy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYHJgD1O8cs
Intentionally easy.

 

[quasimodo]

LOL for pausing every second in RTwP games. It seems I was doing something wrong, because in the games that use this system, I only had to use pause a couple of times in battles. And if it was an easy battle, I didn't use it at all, just let my party to destroy enemies without micro-managing.

As Infintron said it, if you pause every milisecond, you are doing something wrong. I guess you want to control every aspect of the battle with 100% accuracy. Move the characters to the exact position, changing targets immediately, using spells in the milisecond they are available. But most RTwP games don't require this, because they are not as complex as a grand-strategy for example. You issue commands a few times in a battle, and if you are doing it right, you win. You can be more efficient if you pause every moment, but it is a hassle, and doesn't have too much of a benefit.

Sitting there and watching the computer play the game play the game for me just isn't any fun.


If you don't pause what does it even mean to "play" the game?

 

[J1M]

RTwP isn't difficult. Nobody here had trouble figuring it out. Everyone here knows how to play these games because they are intentionally easy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYHJgD1O8cs
Intentionally easy.

So is your point that it is 'challenging' to pause the game every second?

Or that RTwP is challenging only after modders adjust it?

 

[Infinitron]

Holy fuck. Nine god-damn pages and you are still acting like managing RTwP requires some sort of special ability or insight. Stop it.

RTwP isn't difficult. Nobody here had trouble figuring it out. Everyone here knows how to play these games because they are intentionally easy.

The only difference is that you find them fun because you can't see the strings.

Speak for yourself. A large percentage of critics of RTwP dislike it on account of it being "hard to control" and "a clusterfuck".

In other words, they're making excuses for it being too hard for them because they're failing to master the system. Or they actually don't even realize that it can be mastered.

 

[Johannes]

RTwP isn't difficult. Nobody here had trouble figuring it out. Everyone here knows how to play these games because they are intentionally easy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYHJgD1O8cs
Intentionally easy.

So is your point that it is 'challenging' to pause the game every second?

Or that RTwP is challenging only after modders adjust it?

No, it's challenging when there's a tough battle. And in such situation yeah, you need to constantly think and reassess the situation, and therefore pause. If the game was TB, and the battle was of similar size and unpredictability, you'd also need to think carefully and not just give orders as rapid-fire.

And yeah RTwP games don't tend to be that challenging out of the box. But neither are 99% of TB games. This has nothing to do with the combat systems but with how developers want people to finish their games.

 

[J1M]

Holy fuck. Nine god-damn pages and you are still acting like managing RTwP requires some sort of special ability or insight. Stop it.

RTwP isn't difficult. Nobody here had trouble figuring it out. Everyone here knows how to play these games because they are intentionally easy.

The only difference is that you find them fun because you can't see the strings.

Speak for yourself. A large percentage of critics of RTwP dislike it on account of it being "hard to control" and "a clusterfuck".

In other words, they're making excuses for it being too hard for them because they're failing to master the system. Or they actually don't even realize that it can be mastered.

Those statements are not related to game difficulty. They are related to the imprecise controls and tendency for the AI to do whatever it pleases when not constantly managed. The AI scripts you see in Dragon Age are an admission of this problem and an attempt to address it.

 

[Livonya]

(Yes, I know I have nothing new to add to this ancient debate... not that anyone has anything new to add at this point)

Yep.

Anti-RTwP: "The combat was terrible!"
Pro-RTwP: "Uh, no it wasn't. It worked fine for me."

ad infinitum

Like I said, it seems you either get the hang of it or you don't. It seems to heavily depend on one's prior experience with other types of RPGs and other types of games.

Get the "hang of it"? What the fuck are you talking about? RTwP is EASY. I can't think of a single RTwP RPG that wasn't painfully easy.

I don't hate the system because it is too hard, I hate the system because it is sloppy.

I either want total control (turn based) or I want an actual Real Time system that challenges my reflexes and quick thinking.

In my opinion the Infinity Engine games would have been better games if they were either Turn Based or if they were Real Time Action games.

Mount & Blade would have been an awesome combat system for these games. Project Eternity's combat would be much better if it went with the Mount & Blade style combat system. Fuck pause. Pause doesn't belong in an action game.

The best part is that you say:

Anti-RTwP: "The combat was terrible!"
Pro-RTwP: "Uh, no it wasn't. It worked fine for me."

Funny, that you say that the pro-RTwP say RTwP "worked fine" rather than RTwP is my favorite system or something more positive than "worked fine."

RTwP is just a half ass system for party based games. That is why there has never been a party based game that had really great combat. At best RTwP works.

I would prefer games that have GREAT combat systems.

Mount & Blade - great combat
Die By The Sword - great combat
Jagged Alliance 2 - great combat
Temple of Elemental Evil - great combat (game flawed by being unfinished but the combat system was great)
Silent Storm - great combat

Games should aspire for great combat.... not mediocrity that at best "works fine."

 

[Nagling]

Speak for yourself. A large percentage of critics of RTwP dislike it on account of it being "hard to control" and "a clusterfuck".

In other words, they're making excuses for it being too hard for them because they're failing to master the system. Or they actually don't even realize that it can be mastered.

No, a large percentage dismiss RtwP because: watching a combat half a sleep and then sometimes wake up and take part in It, is boring.
These people then try to participate and control everyting and then it becomes.."hell etc"

As someone pointed out before. Some people believe it is fun to watch and some people want to play.

 

[Mrowak]

I would prefer games that have GREAT combat systems.

But theres nothing saying that RTwP cannot work awesome. Combat system is not merely TB/RTwP dichotomy - there's much more than that. The TB proponents forget about it and extol TB for features that are not inherently ascribed to it, or that those features couldn't work in RTwP (e.g. AI in RTwP is inherently dumb - no, it doesn't have to as proved by BG SCS mods).

They also forget that there's multitude TB games - and indeed many of them are rather poor. RTwP games are few and far between, but most of them do their job at least competently, and some classics (IWD, BG2) are actually immense fun to play. And for instance the recent Faster Than Light release is pure awesome, much thanks to RTwP. I'd actually claim that the game would lose its delightful sense of pace and tension if we substituted RTwP with TB in it.

 

[Infinitron]

FTL is RTwP?? Interesting.

 

[Livonya]

And for instance the recent Faster Than Light release is pure awesome, much thanks to RTwP. I'd actually claim that the game would lose its delightful sense of pace and tension if we substituted RTwP with TB in it.

This is hysterical.

FTL is indeed RTwP but using it to make a positive argument for RTwP is totally hysterical.

While FTL is an awesome game, the combat system ONLY works because it is simple, simple, simple.

Your crew members have NO abilities. NONE.

The only thing you control about your crew is their location. Nothing else.

As has been stated by others and myself, RTwP works just fine for very simple combat systems... which FTL has.

Amazing. I hope Project Eternity has a combat system as rich and deep as FTL. That would be hysterical.

 

[Renegen]

My first experience with RTwP was, with X-Com 3, a really good one and so I kinda have a soft spot for it. RTwP seems to work well when you have limited orders to give to your soldiers. If it's between shoot on sight or shoot when >75% accuracy, RTwP is capable of that and very satisfying. When you add spells, it's sheer chaos.

That said, Final Fantasy XII (yes that game) did RTwP really well thanks to the Gambit system. Something to think about.

 

[tuluse]

Sitting there and watching the computer play the game play the game for me just isn't any fun.


If you don't pause what does it even mean to "play" the game?

You are aware you can issue orders in real time, right?

Also, mopping up enemies in a turn based game for me just isn't any fun.

 

[Mrowak]

And for instance the recent Faster Than Light release is pure awesome, much thanks to RTwP. I'd actually claim that the game would lose its delightful sense of pace and tension if we substituted RTwP with TB in it.

This is hysterical.

FTL is indeed RTwP but using it to make a positive argument for RTwP is totally hysterical.

While FTL is an awesome game, the combat system ONLY works because it is simple, simple, simple.

Your crew members have NO abilities. NONE.

The only thing you control about your crew is their location. Nothing else.

As has been stated by others and myself, RTwP works just fine for very simple combat systems... which FTL has.

Amazing. I hope Project Eternity has a combat system as rich and deep as FTL. That would be hysterical.

Strawman, much? I didn't say it was particularly complex, (but than again neither are most TB games - they are extremely simple with simplistic dumb AI - even in Jagged Alliance 2). I merely said it worked splendidly and it allowed for amazing gameplay.

The only thing you control about your crew is their location. Nothing else.

Not true. The game lets you control much more in RTwP - your power subsystems, and targeting mechanisms, and weapons, disabling enemy subsystems, controlling boarding parties... hmm... I wouldn't say that's little. There are also plenty of customization options, weapon types, types of crewmen - so another myth that only TB can allow for complexity falls down.

FTL proves that simplicity is virtue. Being contrived is not. So what that ToEE has all that awesome powers, abilities and mechanics when the AI is bloody too dumb to take advantage of 80% of it. Hold that against vanilla BG2 where even the dumbest enemies can give you a hell of a fight (provided that they are not stat-gimped - a common problem in TB as well) using the fullest extent of their powers.

 

[Livonya]

And for instance the recent Faster Than Light release is pure awesome, much thanks to RTwP. I'd actually claim that the game would lose its delightful sense of pace and tension if we substituted RTwP with TB in it.

This is hysterical.

FTL is indeed RTwP but using it to make a positive argument for RTwP is totally hysterical.

While FTL is an awesome game, the combat system ONLY works because it is simple, simple, simple.

Your crew members have NO abilities. NONE.

The only thing you control about your crew is their location. Nothing else.

As has been stated by others and myself, RTwP works just fine for very simple combat systems... which FTL has.

Amazing. I hope Project Eternity has a combat system as rich and deep as FTL. That would be hysterical.

Strawman, much? I didn't say it was particularly complex, (but than again neither are most TB games - they are extremely simple with simplistic dumb AI - even in Jagged Alliance 2). I merely said it worked splendidly and it allowed for amazing gameplay.

The only thing you control about your crew is their location. Nothing else.

Not true. The game lets you control much more in RTwP - your power subsystems, and targeting mechanisms, and weapons, disabling enemy subsystems, controlling boarding parties... hmm... I wouldn't say that's little. There are also plenty of customization options, weapon types, types of crewmen - so another myth that only TB can allow for complexity falls down.

FTL proves that simplicity is virtue. Being contrived is not. So what that ToEE has all that awesome powers, abilities and mechanics when the AI is bloody too dumb to take advantage of 80% of it. Hold that against vanilla BG2 where even the dumbest enemies can give you a hell of a fight (provided that they are not stat-gimped - a common problem in TB as well) using the fullest extent of their powers.

I am sorry, but you need to read what I said.

I said the only thing you get to control ABOUT YOUR CREW is their location.

Your power subsystems, and targeting mechanisms, and weapons, disabling enemy subsystems, controlling boarding parties, etc... have nothing to do with your crew.

My statement is still true. The ONLY thing you get to control about your CREW is their location. Nothing else. It couldn't actually get much simpler than that.

 

[Niektory]

That said, Final Fantasy XII (yes that game) did RTwP really well thanks to the Gambit system. Something to think about.

Attacking and ability use worked decently, but controlling your party's positioning was impossible in that game. Something to think about.

 

[Mrowak]

I am sorry, but you need to read what I said.

I said the only thing you get to control ABOUT YOUR CREW is their location.

Your power subsystems, and targeting mechanisms, and weapons, disabling enemy subsystems, controlling boarding parties, etc... have nothing to do with your crew.

My statement is still true. The ONLY thing you get to control about your CREW is their location. Nothing else. It couldn't actually get much simpler than that.

That's true - I assumed that by crew you are referring to what they do on the ship through you (all the stuff I mentioned). Still here you can clearly see the great advantage of RTwP - how easy it is to control multiple, complex layers of the gameplay at one time (your crew i.e. people and your entire ship + see what the enemy ship is planning to do). If you translated FTL to TB the game would be much slooower, and the gameplay would suffer immensely. Bottom line: RTwP can have as good gameplay as TB provided that other gameplay mechanics are accounting for the time system used. Either system cannot readily replace the other.

I also can't help noticing that you did not address any of the other points I raised.

To make it clear: I am not saying TB is old-fashioned, boring and passe. Many TB games are among my favourites (KotC or JA 2). The thing is, I don't believe in absolutes, and in this case saying that RTwP is banal, boring shit by definition borders on demagoguery.

 

[Livonya]

I am sorry, but you need to read what I said.

I said the only thing you get to control ABOUT YOUR CREW is their location.

Your power subsystems, and targeting mechanisms, and weapons, disabling enemy subsystems, controlling boarding parties, etc... have nothing to do with your crew.

My statement is still true. The ONLY thing you get to control about your CREW is their location. Nothing else. It couldn't actually get much simpler than that.

That's true - I assumed that by crew you are referring to what they do on the ship through you (all the stuff I mentioned). Still here you can clearly see the great advantage of RTwP - how easy it is to control multiple, complex layers of the gameplay at one time (your crew i.e. people and your entire ship + see what the enemy ship is planning to do). If you translated FTL to TB the game would be much slooower, and the gameplay would suffer immensely. Bottom line: RTwP can have as good gameplay as TB provided that other gameplay mechanics are accounting for the time system used. Either system cannot readily replace the other.

I also can't help noticing that you did not address any of the other points I raised.

To make it clear: I am not saying TB is old-fashioned, boring and passe. Many TB games are among my favourites (KotC or JA 2). The thing is, I don't believe in absolutes, and in this case saying that RTwP is banal, boring shit by definition borders on demagoguery.

Points? You had points? All I see is a hysterical claim that FTL proves that RTwP works well for party based RPGs.

FTL isn't a party/squad based RPG. It is a roguelike action game. Sure you have a "crew" but you can't really control them. All you get to do is tell them where to go. What they do is completely up to the AI. It has NOTHING to do with you. You can't give them any orders other than move. They then arrive in a room and perform actions dependent upon the AI programming - something you can NOT change in any way.

The crew has very, very, very limited stats, and the special abilities are universal and can't be controlled by the player.

All the ship systems are automated. You don't even need a crew member to be in the room (other than you need a captain in order to jump or to use your engines to dodge - though dodging can also be automated with a systems upgrade).

I never said that RTwP doesn't work for this sort of game. I said RTwP doesn't work with a party based RPG.

FTL takes a few hours to play a game. A party based RPG takes 30 to 40+ hours to play a game.

Comparing the crew in the FTL game to a party in JA2, BG2, NWN2, or ToEE is just hysterical. The crew are disposable. I got to sector 8 last night and ended up hiring 12 crew members, losing 5 of them to death along the way. No big deal. The crew aren't unique characters built or specialized by the player.

The whole point of FTL is chaos and death - losing is fun. It is more akin to Dwarf Fortress. Dwarf Mode also uses RTwP but once again you have very limited control over your Dwarves... (of course Dwarf Fortress uses turn based in Adventure Mode).

I will grant you that FTL is a great game, and the RTwP works great in that game. But the complexity is very low. And of course FTL wouldn't be a very good Turn Based game because it is far too simple for Turn Based.

If you want to hold up FTL as proof of what a great combat system RTwP is then go right ahead. I just think that proves that RTwP is limited at best.