Preview GameInformer's Oblivion info

[merry andrew]

Really? If that's the case, then why do your characters have their own skills and attributes then if it's more realistic and immersive to use your own skills and attributes?

It's due to the distinction between your world and the game world. Your world generally adheres to less strictly-defined probabilities, while the game world can often seem limited due to its necessary extremely-defined probabilities. By allowing the player to use its own actions (other than frozen-time decision-making) to act for the character, those necessary extremely-defined probablities can perhaps be more accurately modeled to what the designer intended. I think the mini-games are attempting to increase immersion, not tear it down.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Makes sense. I've just found myself wishing that my character could accomplish something through a means other than a skill check, especially if I feel that the skill check in question shouldn't be the only thing my character can use to determine the if the task can be completed.

Why woud you wish for that? Technically everything you do in real life is a subject to many skill checks: applying to school or for a loan, asking for a raise, lying to somebody, stealing, driving, etc. So, "the skill check in question" is the only real test of your character's abilities to handle the task, anything else would make all characters exactly the same in terms of what they can do.

It's due to the distinction between your world and the game world. Your world generally adheres to less strictly-defined probabilities, while the game world can often seem limited due to its necessary extremely-defined probabilities.

Then don't you think the solution is to increase the number of game-world probabilities thus fixing the problem?

 

[Seven]

Alright my little drama queen you asked for this:

So difficult in fact that no one else in this thread has been able to respond directly to anything of relevance that I have posted in this thread

You're lazy and that's fine, so am I.

It's not a question of being lazy; it's not wanting to have to infer what's sracasm and what isn't. Why don't we just suppose that you're so good at sarcasm that slow folk like me just can't keep up.

I just wrote a detailed post about how I mentioned viewpost as an off comment, and then restated my relevant responses, and this is how you reply? After this I probably won't respond to you in this thread again unless you decide to talk about the topic again instead of how much I confuse you.

Unless I decide to talk about the topic? Yeah, that's right I'm the one who went off in a tangent about FP and isometric when we were discussing skill/attribute rolls. It's great that you brought up the *immersiveness* of the camera in FP, but I don't see what it has to do with taking rolls a way from combat and basing it on reflex. If you wanted to butress your argument then you miss you're mark.

Lets review: You wrote:

So no, I don't think an FPS is more of an RPG than a game with a different viewpoint. I also don't think a 3rd person-isometric viewpoint is "more RPG" than a first person one; yes, I know that most RPGs have been made with that kind of viewpoint. And about total control for an RPG... I'm not sure how that would work exactly, considering that you're playing a character who lives in a world separate from yourself, and thus has different abilities and restrictions than yourself.

And this was in response to:

My problem with your point of view and the direction that Beth is taking (vis-a-vis combat) is that it creates no difference between a RPG and a FPS with a great story. Arguably from your point of view an FPS would be more of an RPG than an RPG because it puts you in total control, right?

and you wrote this:

The above text includes seven or so (apparently incoherent?) statements. About one and one fourth of them are either off or slightly off comments (I have highlighted them in boldface). The other statements are direct responses to your question, which I provided soley for clarification, in the hopes that you would understand me. I realize that I mentioned viewpoint, but I don't see how it destroys my entire response and totally strips it of value.

Remember the intital Fallout 3 discussions of how viewpoint matters in an RPG, and how having a first-person perspective can pose problems when trying to implement a skill check-only gameplay system (especially when it comes to interactivity)? Well being the retard that I am, I just say: So modify the system to include both reflexes and skill checks. I'm an idiot that's truly sorry for ruining everything.

Now the point was simple, and from the above statement you recognize that reflexes of the player are different from that of the avatar (which coincidentally is why RPG's are attractive to some). So why should combat based on player reflexes be good in Morrowind?

So clearly I derailed the entire discussion by misleading you. You were so blindsided that you couldn't even respond to anything else that I wrote. I sincerely apologize. Next time I will do my best to not make any off comments in an effort to not corrupt the conversation.

Come up with something worth a reply, and we'll see. Right now you're just the new kid who thinks that he's hotter than shit.

If you're curious at all, my perspective comment was intended to be an analogy (which I'm obviously horrible at). Just as RPGs may not have been envisioned to include reflex-based gameplay, they also may not have been envisioned to be played from a first-person perspective. In other words, as I've stated more than once in this thread: mixing genres does not bother me. I call a FPS (with story & character advancement & dialogue options & inventory management) an RPG. I wouldn't mind calling it a Simulation either, but I don't really feel like getting some wrath from the hardcore sim gamers too.

Aghh, finally some sense. Great, you don't mind genre mixing, and to a certain extant neither do I. However, RPGs IMO should be primarily stat and not reflex driven. We disagree on this point fine great, more on it later though.

 

[merry andrew]

So, "the skill check in question" is the only real test of your character's abilities to handle the task, anything else would make all characters exactly the same in terms of what they can do.

Don't forget to factor in the abilities of the player, because not every player is going to know how to accomplish every task with every character. The character just doesn't act on its own, therefore the abilities of the player are an integral part of the game. Yeah maybe every character could accomplish a given task, but not every player would have neither the patience to constantly reload a savegame nor know how to accomplish the task with every character. Instead of assigning the determining factor of whether or not a character can accomplish a task to how much time (or allocated points) the player has invested into the character's skill, the ES mini-game would allow the player to act as the character while still being restricted by the skills of the character. This allows you to add consciousness to the character, who is still being judged based on its skills.

The mini-games could be near impossible to win. I'm don't know exactly how this mini-game thing will be implemented, and if it is implemented the way you describe, then yes, it will suck a bit.

Then don't you think the solution is to increase the number of game-world probabilities thus fixing the problem?

Like adding a mini-game to the skill check?
But yeah, I guess if some company wants to spend a decade or two in deveopment, then simply adding more skills and more skill checks could fix the problem, or at least some of it.

 

[merry andrew]

I thought sarcasm was a regular and accepted occurence on these boards. I didn't mean to be misleading. Here's a sarcasmless reply:

It's great that you brought up the *immersiveness* of the camera in FP, but I don't see what it has to do with taking rolls a way from combat and basing it on reflex. If you wanted to butress your argument then you miss you're mark.

That's all and well, it was an off-comment after all.

Now the point was simple, and from the above statement you recognize that reflexes of the player are different from that of the avatar (which coincidentally is why RPG's are attractive to some).

I recognize that the character does not act on its own. The reflexes of the player effectively become the reflexes of the character. These reflexes, however, come to represent only part of the action, while the other part is determined by skill checks and die rolls.

So why should combat based on player reflexes be good in Morrowind?

I didn't know we were discussing the reflex-based combat in Morrowind. I thought that was a given? Don't forget that it's also skill-based. I haven't given much thought to arguments as to why player reflexes should determine the outcome of combat. Maybe for immersiveness and increased interactivity?

Come up with something worth a reply, and we'll see.

As well as chatting with you, I've been getting responses from others as well. I'm sorry that I haven't written anything that you find worth replying to (even though you've replied to me on numerous occasions), but I didn't come here to speak to you specifically. No offense intended.

Right now you're just the new kid who thinks that he's hotter than shit.

I doubt that you know what I think of myself. Just incase you're wondering, I don't think I'm hotter than shit. I also didn't know that my post count affected the content of my posts.

Aghh, finally some sense. Great, you don't mind genre mixing, and to a certain extant neither do I. However, RPGs IMO should be primarily stat and not reflex driven. We disagree on this point fine great, more on it later though.

Yup. I also think RPGs should be primarily stat-based. I just don't mind when reflexes are added to the equation.

 

[Seven]

I recognize that the character does not act on its own. The reflexes of the player effectively become the reflexes of the character. These reflexes, however, come to represent only part of the action, while the other part is determined by skill checks and die rolls.

Now you're on shaky ground. Granted, in RT settings the lack of reflexes on the part of the player can pose a problem (I suppose that's why some devs do pause and play). However, I don't see the reflexes of the player as being prime. A good RT system based on stats would negate the player reflexes (of course what we often find in the RT setting is that player reflexes are very important at early levels and then become less so as the character gains higher levels). Now to go off in a tangent, in TB games it's all character stats and skills and player reflexes have no role at all except to issue orders. So what I'm trying to say is: no, player reflexes do not translate into the be all and end in RPGs (although, as I've pointed out they do have tangable effects on outcomes at earlier levels).

Yup. I also think RPGs should be primarily stat-based. I just don't mind when reflexes are added to the equation.

I don't see how you can say this while saying that they're going in the right direction with taking out combat skill determiners, and basing combat soley on player reflexes in Morrowind.

 

[wintermane]

This has all the merit and worth of a trekkie debate on kirk vs darth vader.

The FACT is its a game. The genra it is "in" is just a label for simple minded simpltons who cant understand what sopmething is unless its got a nice simple label on it and a few simple sentences that state in 5th grade comprehension level what they should think it is.

Everyone else just buys the game because its gona be fun interesting and worth 50 bucks. We dont give a flying weasel what its desribed as. It could be describes as an action pork simulation and horse riding home decoration game and I wouldnt give a rats ass.

Its a game anything more then that is box art.

 

[merry andrew]

So what I'm trying to say is: no, player reflexes do not translate into the be all and end in RPGs (although, as I've pointed out they do have tangable effects on outcomes at earlier levels).

I agree.

I don't see how you can say this while saying that they're going in the right direction with taking out combat skill determiners, and basing combat soley on player reflexes in Morrowind.

Combat is not based soley on player reflexes in Morrowind, and I wasn't aware that they're taking out combat skill determiners. If they were to take out combat skill determiners, I would probably be pretty disappointed.

 

[merry andrew]

Its a game anything more then that is box art.

If that doesn't hit the nail on the head, I don't know what does.

 

[Seven]

"The combat will be every bit as exciting as it is in a first-person shooter. Contrary to the RPG convention, the outcome of combat will not be decided by virtual dice rolls. Your opponent will block and dodge, so taking down an enemy is entirely on the player's shoulders"

This seems pretty indicative of the direction that they're going, but hey, time will tell.

 

[Elwro]

The FACT is its a game. .

OMG Vicious Visceris is back!

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

The FACT is its a game. The genra it is "in" is just a label for simple minded simpltons who cant understand what sopmething is unless its got a nice simple label on it and a few simple sentences that state in 5th grade comprehension level what they should think it is.

When you were in 5th grade talking about sentences, did they ever mention the term, "run on sentence"?

No, my dear, little simpleton, the fact of the matter is when you classify something as an "RPG", you have certain expectations that must be met. When you're selling cats, the buyer isn't going to expect them to bark, sit for a mlkbone, and hike their leg to piss. We're not the ones calling Oblivion an RPG, Bethesda is.

Now, check out the title of the website here. Notice the first three letters in the name of it. Now, guess what the focus of this site is - games within a certain genre classification! So, basically, you're the simpleton hopping on an RPG site talking smack about a discussion covering the focus of the purpose of the site itself. Exactly how fucking stupid are you?

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

So, basically, you're the simpleton hopping on an RPG site talking smack about a discussion covering the focus of the purpose of the site itself. Exactly how fucking stupid are you?

I momentarily gagged my political correctness so I can say I agree with you on that one. In point and expression.

Back to our usual broadcast.

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

"The combat will be every bit as exciting as it is in a first-person shooter. Contrary to the RPG convention, the outcome of combat will not be decided by virtual dice rolls. Your opponent will block and dodge, so taking down an enemy is entirely on the player's shoulders"

This seems pretty indicative of the direction that they're going, but hey, time will tell.

The only die roll that's been removed is "to hit". If you're close enough to and facing your opponent, you'll hit it with your melee weapon. How much -- if any -- actual damage you do is wholly dependent upon your character's stats (strength, luck, relevant weapon skill), the weapon's quality and condition, and the opponent's stats, skills, and armor. In Morrowind, the "to hit" roll meant that you'd see your four-foot-long claymore fly right through an opponent two feet away and you'd still "miss".

Oblivion's combat emphasis is on making combat more exciting and compelling, not on making combat the focus of the game. There'll be plenty of opportunities for other class specializations -- we just haven't talked about any of them yet.

 

[Elwro]

So the PC's Dexterity (or Agility or how else it is called in the game) doesn't play any role in melee combat?

 

[wintermane]

The FACT is its a game. The genra it is "in" is just a label for simple minded simpltons who cant understand what sopmething is unless its got a nice simple label on it and a few simple sentences that state in 5th grade comprehension level what they should think it is.

When you were in 5th grade talking about sentences, did they ever mention the term, "run on sentence"?

No, my dear, little simpleton, the fact of the matter is when you classify something as an "RPG", you have certain expectations that must be met. When you're selling cats, the buyer isn't going to expect them to bark, sit for a mlkbone, and hike their leg to piss. We're not the ones calling Oblivion an RPG, Bethesda is.

Now, check out the title of the website here. Notice the first three letters in the name of it. Now, guess what the focus of this site is - games within a certain genre classification! So, basically, you're the simpleton hopping on an RPG site talking smack about a discussion covering the focus of the purpose of the site itself. Exactly how fucking stupid are you?

Concidering I was there when the term rpg started to be applied to electronic games I know a hell of alot more about the sillyness of the term then you do child.

Its just box art it has no more meaning then the term comedy does on the box of a movie. Hell its not even as descriptive as the term sci fi.

You can go on and on about what rpg means but that wont change what the game makers use the term for. Its just a label and a very vague one at that. Being anul about it is as silly as people who were soo anul about star trek and what true sci fi ment as battlestar galactica and so on entered the fray.


The real question and the one someone who isnt a child would ask is in general are games going where we want them to be going and if not why not? Is there a formula of games that has popped up over the years that is stealing the lifes blood of what made the games we used to play and enjoy what they were?


Personaly I am enjoying the offshoots of the old themes but I do wonder where the old themes went to.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Saint is a child? That should be interesting. Free popcorn for everybody.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Why, thank you. Have some soda.

::kicks back in couch::

 

[Elwro]

Maybe you were around when the term started to be applied to electronic games, but you sure as hell weren't around when they taught punctuation at school.
NEWSFLASH: Signs like "," and ":" can be used to increase your posts' readability.

 

[Sol Invictus]

So the PC's Dexterity (or Agility or how else it is called in the game) doesn't play any role in melee combat?

Why wouldn't it? Surely it increases the speed at which you hit, and it adds a modifier to your walking/running speed.

I see no reason why removing the modifier for to-hit rolls (which were present in Morrowind, and also made that game's combat quite boring) would suddenly, and automagically remove the the modifiers for agility, strength and so forth. That's illogical. Simply put, dexterity can still be used as a modifier to determine critical chance, and assuming that Bethesda took a cue from the 'disable' and 'disarm' modifications, it could be used to determine your chance to disable, stun, or disarm your opponent.

 

[Elwro]

Exitium, MW had a special attribute called Speed for the things you've mentioned. But I agree that Dexterity can influence critical hit chance. What else (talking about melee combat here)? Ot is the Speed attribute dumped?

And no one said that removing the modifier for to-hit rolls would automagically remove the modifier from strength.

 

[wintermane]

Saint is a child? That should be interesting. Free popcorn for everybody.

Can I have that with extra butter?

Er wait darn im on stage!

Erm now where was I... Oh yes the meaning of rpg. It doesnt have one.

All rpg realy ment at the time was if you see the term used for games you own and like hey we got something you MIGHT like too.

Later when games became a bigger industry it evolved a bit into where in the store the game was stuffed and as such all its designed to do is catch those shoppers who dont look on every isle and at every game and give a good chance they will grab the box read the box art and buy the game.

It NOW has far more to do with search results and where the game will wind up if someone say searches amazon for games they wana buy.

In all these cases what an rpg is never mattered all that matters is who is most likely gona buy the game and getting the box/box art/game info in front of their face before they find something else to buy.

Thats it.

So yes oblivion is gona be sold as an rpg because in that section of stores and in that section of online sellers websites is where the most sales of it will be had. What you think doesnt matter a wit what sells it best does.

That also happens to be why what is called an rpg changes over time. What sells changes as the players change and to be blunt to old timers we stopped being the target awhile ago. You might as well get a cane and start sitting on the porch yelling at kids. Or if your a kid you might as grow up and face the fact your not normal and games are sold to and made for normal people these days.

 

[plin]

MrSmileyFaceDude is a bethesda dev, shouldn't he get one of those nifty avatars and custom titles?

 

[Sol Invictus]

It's good to see him posting here. Don't scare him off, guys. Civility rules the day.

 

[Whipporowill]

It's good to see him posting here. Don't scare him off, guys. Civility rules the day.

Rex, man. Telling codexers to behave is like asking kids to "play nice" - it has the freaking opposite effect. While I'm not one to go on random flame rampages or anything, I know some of our members have a bit of an anarchic side.