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luj1

You're all shills
Vatnik
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Messages
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Eastern block
I can't pinpoint exactly what I mean by a ‘deep character progression’

I'll do it for you, it's basically build variety. That automatically means a high level of interaction between skills.

What you listed above are examples of original features, which are nice. But don't necessarily warrant a deep system.
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
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Oct 12, 2016
Messages
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Kelethin
They only know single player RPGs, codex is MMOmophobic. Only a few people have played MMORPGs and even they only know a bit.

I have had my share with a few years of WoW.

Leaving aside any other consideration, I don't have that kind of time on my hands anymore.

It's because of capitalism. Businesses can destroy competition and sabotage others, they have so much freedom to do that in legal ways. Read the bottom link in my signature, look at all that talent that was 'retired'. Other corporations have since joined in too, what's left is a wasteland. People are slow to figure out why this is. But really it's like, if you went around every business in your country, and shot the secretary in the head, there would eventually be a shortage of secretaries. What happened in gaming is no different, it was just done by paying those people to retire.

It's like ethnically cleansing the talent in the entire industry, and besides that they also deliberately made it so that the top games are $100 million monstrosities that all the kids want and use the latest tech that costs a lot of money. Now any average game studio is fucked, they can't compete with that. So they all died. The middle class of gaming studios have been massacred over the past 20 odd years. Now it's just a handful of AAA shitlords making franchised McCrap for the mainstream masses of idiots while abusing their position and constantly seeing how far they can push it. Or there's a million indie one man band developers who are mostly talentless hacks, roleplaying as indie game developers, but constantly failing to make anything that's even half as good as shareware from 1985.

That's depressing. Hopefully, things will change, sooner or later. They always do.
There was an amazing game but it died due to bugs and failed launch. You learned some spells from a trainer but you learned some from enemies in the world by fighting them. Also as you levelled up you got multiple attribute points you could spend on your character and you could drastically change the character depending on how you spent the points. So a Bard with lots of Con, Sta, Agi was tanky. But if you pumped Str/Dex you could be like a glass cannon. And most classes had the same flexibility. You also had stances that let you focus on a style. The Shaman could do a quest to pray to a patron that changed the class and the pet. Bear shaman was tanky and strong healer, the bird shaman was damage focused, etc. They got a different pet and a bunch of different spells depending on which quest they did.

Sounds like fun. Stuff like that, games getting canceled or failing or turning out complete crap, is what made me decide to avoid getting all hyped for games before they were already out.

EverQuest is the closest thing but that game was great at release and got shitter each year it lived. 24 years later means it's total shit. There is p99 which is closer to the original but it's still shit. They never got close to the original and that too got worse over the years. If you put a map and uber gear in EverQuest then you may as well play World of Warcraft. The whole point of EQ was that it was brutal and unwelcoming and accomplishing anything felt amazing. That whole thing got ruined over the years.

That said p99 is still probably better than anything else.

Not sure I could enjoy it today like you probably did back then.

Gaming is so stale, it does leave a lot of room for smaller developers to have a hit game. I sometimes see an indie game that's really good and it reminds me there's hope.

As for EverQuest you might like P99, new people try that and seem to like it even today. But if you already played WoW it might be weird.
 

Modron

Arcane
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
11,141
I would probably help us to tell you what you've missed if we knew what you've played.

Off the top of my head here is a bunch of fairly crunchy mostly indie stuff you might not have played:
  • Brigand Oaxaca
  • The Quest
  • Voidspire Tactics
  • Hammer and Sickle
  • Blackguards
  • Prelude to Darkness
  • Eschalon Book 1-3 (the first one is free on steam)
  • Lords of Xulima
  • Siege of Avalon
  • Tale of Wuxia
  • The Seventh Circle + Inferno Beyond the 7th Circle
  • Drakensang: The River of Time
  • Troubleshooter

Honorable mentions,
  • A Legionary's Life - play as a footsoldier during the second punic war as you march across spain, northern africa, and greece. More of cyoa/life sim/roguelike education piece but everyone should give it a shot.

Stuff you've probably already played
  • ATOM RPG + Trudograd
  • Gothic 1-2 (+Archalos)
  • Fallout 1-2 (+Nevada, Sonora, and Resurrection)
  • Arcanum
  • The Age of Decadence
  • Underrail
  • Knights of the Chalice 1-2
 

Rapscallion

Literate
Joined
May 11, 2023
Messages
22
-In LOTR Online you could earn feats or traits or whatever they were called, by slaying a specific type of enemy, instead of picking it up from your class panel, again no class restrictions.The bonuses were rather lame, like 5% of this or that, but I liked the idea your character learned something from the interaction with the environment. That's a huge plus for me.

Elite skills in Guild Wars 1. You get them by slaying monsters and 'capturing' their skills. Unfortunately that is an MMO, and a dead one at that, and I know of no other examples of that.

-Quests giving you skills or spells. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen this a few times but I can’t remember where.

Morrowind

-In Fable the body of your character changed (somewhat) as his stats changed. This is purely cosmetic but I think details like this make the difference.

Never seen that. Underrail Infusion is supposed to have it.

-Elder Scrolls system to level up skills by just whacking your sword or running or jumping was kind of okay-ish. It lead to dumb situations where you could get many levels just by sneaking around and crafting stuff while having zero combat prowess. It sure needs polish and more variation, but why everyone is so scared of grinding mechanics nowadays?

Levelling up by doing stuff I only have seen in TES games and Wizardry games I think. Perhaps Grimoire too, cant remember.

-In the original Diablo you could learn your spells and level them up by finding books around, no class restrictions. This is a basic but valid depiction of my idea of how magical powers should be learned in a fantasy setting. Trainers are dumb.

Escape from the Pit does that, excellent game. Oddity system in Underrail perhaps but not exactly what youre looking for.

I can't pinpoint exactly what I mean by a ‘deep character progression’

I'll do it for you, it's basically build variety. That automatically means a high level of interaction between skills.

What you listed above are examples of original features, which are nice. But don't necessarily warrant a deep system.

I just listed things that gave me the impression there was an additional layer to "pick your spells/skills/attributes at every level up".
I think these kinds of features have to be structured in layers and cross with each other to reach complexity and depth. It's like creating a matrix instead of just a long list.
They may be simple in essence, but if you pile them up...


That one of getting Elite skills from killed enemies for example (I played GW1 and didn't even remember it was there): why is so much more common to put beast-slaying kinds of talents inside hunters/rangers/slayers progression trees, instead of letting anyone pick them by actually killing the beasts?
I know it's rather pointless to debate it, it's just I don't get it. Or rather, I don't get why everyone does things in just one way.


Also, I think it's not just about depth but how you reach said depth too. Flavor it's mighty important in an RPG.
Trainers suck.
Talent trees suck too in a way.
I don't know what they are called in Pathfinder/D&D, it's the same though.
 

Rapscallion

Literate
Joined
May 11, 2023
Messages
22
I would probably help us to tell you what you've missed if we knew what you've played.

Off the top of my head here is a bunch of fairly crunchy mostly indie stuff you might not have played:
  • Brigand Oaxaca
  • The Quest
  • Voidspire Tactics
  • Hammer and Sickle
  • Blackguards
  • Prelude to Darkness
  • Eschalon Book 1-3 (the first one is free on steam)
  • Lords of Xulima
  • Siege of Avalon
  • Tale of Wuxia
  • The Seventh Circle + Inferno Beyond the 7th Circle
  • Drakensang: The River of Time
  • Troubleshooter

Honorable mentions,
  • A Legionary's Life - play as a footsoldier during the second punic war as you march across spain, northern africa, and greece. More of cyoa/life sim/roguelike education piece but everyone should give it a shot.

Stuff you've probably already played
  • ATOM RPG + Trudograd
  • Gothic 1-2 (+Archalos)
  • Fallout 1-2 (+Nevada, Sonora, and Resurrection)
  • Arcanum
  • The Age of Decadence
  • Underrail
  • Knights of the Chalice 1-2
That's easy enough. As I said in my first post, I played just a few games really. Some of these titles do ring a bell though.

And stuff like Fallout, I never really felt like picking it up since I figured it was just the sci-fi version of Elder Scrolls. I played quite a lot at Skyrim and just a little with Oblivion before that. Gradually I lost interest in the whole "setting up billions of mods to turn an average game into a good game" routine, you know.

In the indie category, you could safely say I played none.
I can't be bothered to dig precious hidden gems among piles of digital trash.
That's probably too harsh but in the end, it's how I feel about it.

I'll be happy to look into that list though.
 

Reinhardt

Arcane
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
32,041
planet escape: tournament. you learnremember lots of shit from interacting with the world, factions, people and items.
 

WhiteShark

Learned
Joined
Sep 17, 2019
Messages
370
Location
滅びてゆく世界
And stuff like Fallout, I never really felt like picking it up since I figured it was just the sci-fi version of Elder Scrolls. I played quite a lot at Skyrim and just a little with Oblivion before that. Gradually I lost interest in the whole "setting up billions of mods to turn an average game into a good game" routine, you know.
This is incredible bait material. It's a real shame it's been wasted on a sincere post.

Also, I'll warn you that while there are many good games on that list, a lot of them don't seem to be exactly for what you are looking. Lots of entries with complex character progression but in a conventional way.
 

Kev Inkline

(devious)
Patron
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Messages
5,481
A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I would probably help us to tell you what you've missed if we knew what you've played.

Off the top of my head here is a bunch of fairly crunchy mostly indie stuff you might not have played:
  • Brigand Oaxaca
  • The Quest
  • Voidspire Tactics
  • Hammer and Sickle
  • Blackguards
  • Prelude to Darkness
  • Eschalon Book 1-3 (the first one is free on steam)
  • Lords of Xulima
  • Siege of Avalon
  • Tale of Wuxia
  • The Seventh Circle + Inferno Beyond the 7th Circle
  • Drakensang: The River of Time
  • Troubleshooter

Honorable mentions,
  • A Legionary's Life - play as a footsoldier during the second punic war as you march across spain, northern africa, and greece. More of cyoa/life sim/roguelike education piece but everyone should give it a shot.

Stuff you've probably already played
  • ATOM RPG + Trudograd
  • Gothic 1-2 (+Archalos)
  • Fallout 1-2 (+Nevada, Sonora, and Resurrection)
  • Arcanum
  • The Age of Decadence
  • Underrail
  • Knights of the Chalice 1-2


And stuff like Fallout, I never really felt like picking it up since I figured it was just the sci-fi version of Elder Scrolls. I played quite a lot at Skyrim and just a little with Oblivion before that. Gradually I lost interest in the whole "setting up billions of mods to turn an average game into a good game" routine, you know.
I take it you're talking about Fallout 3, the first Fallout game ever released?
 

Rapscallion

Literate
Joined
May 11, 2023
Messages
22
This is incredible bait material. It's a real shame it's been wasted on a sincere post.

Also, I'll warn you that while there are many good games on that list, a lot of them don't seem to be exactly for what you are looking. Lots of entries with complex character progression but in a conventional way.
:lol:

I suspected as much.
While it's true I didn't play that many games, I have been checking the market for years. I am sure to have missed something, maybe more, but not in the range of dozens.

It's ok though, I appreciate the effort.
 

Gunnar

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 10, 2016
Messages
819
All of Voidspire, Alvora and Horizon are fun games that have lots of different classes and abilities, in Horizon you can build multiple parties

Final Fantasy 5 for the SNES has a bunch of classes and lets you mix and match their skills

Stranger of Sword City has a similar idea, you can build a diverse party and then start mixing class skills to create unique characters
 

orcinator

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
1,776
Location
Republic of Kongou
Most of the listed systems are different flavors of "here's a lot of options, figure out the best combination to win." and aren't really deep, just really complex.

A truly deep system would be the popular roleplaying series Civilization where you also have a ton of options but the nature of the game forces you to evaluate what's the best option for the current situation instead of blindly following a build.
 

Rapscallion

Literate
Joined
May 11, 2023
Messages
22
All of Voidspire, Alvora and Horizon are fun games that have lots of different classes and abilities, in Horizon you can build multiple parties

Final Fantasy 5 for the SNES has a bunch of classes and lets you mix and match their skills

Stranger of Sword City has a similar idea, you can build a diverse party and then start mixing class skills to create unique characters
Horizon? Not that one with the girl with the bow, right?

Most of the listed systems are different flavors of "here's a lot of options, figure out the best combination to win." and aren't really deep, just really complex.
Why yes, I'm stupid. That's exactly my level of complexity.

A truly deep system would be the popular roleplaying series Civilization where you also have a ton of options but the nature of the game forces you to evaluate what's the best option for the current situation instead of blindly following a build.
The only Civilization I know is a 4x game.
Which I have spent hundreds of hours playing, by the way.
 

Tweed

Professional Kobold
Patron
Joined
Sep 27, 2018
Messages
3,028
Location
harsh circumstances
Pathfinder: Wrath
All of Voidspire, Alvora and Horizon are fun games that have lots of different classes and abilities, in Horizon you can build multiple parties

Final Fantasy 5 for the SNES has a bunch of classes and lets you mix and match their skills

Stranger of Sword City has a similar idea, you can build a diverse party and then start mixing class skills to create unique characters

Multiple parties, kek. If you intend to have a B team or really anyone competent aside from the main party you'll want a mod that boosts their passive XP unless you really feel like swapping out a bunch of characters. It makes it a big problem when you fight boarding parties and most of your crew are a bunch of losers.
 

Gunnar

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 10, 2016
Messages
819
All of Voidspire, Alvora and Horizon are fun games that have lots of different classes and abilities, in Horizon you can build multiple parties

Final Fantasy 5 for the SNES has a bunch of classes and lets you mix and match their skills

Stranger of Sword City has a similar idea, you can build a diverse party and then start mixing class skills to create unique characters

Multiple parties, kek. If you intend to have a B team or really anyone competent aside from the main party you'll want a mod that boosts their passive XP unless you really feel like swapping out a bunch of characters. It makes it a big problem when you fight boarding parties and most of your crew are a bunch of losers.
I had several B squads to man the ships in my fleets. There are certain skills that are useful to target for B squads to go for first that makes them useful no matter how low level they are. I use spears for reach and races that get speed bonuses. In a sea battle with boarding actions, everybody gains XP. You don't need a mod.
 

Gostak

Educated
Joined
Jan 10, 2022
Messages
253
Cataclysm DDA is pretty nice regarding this.

Adom and Incursion: Halls of the Goblin King (the latter OGL so like DND) are
both more standard affair roguelikes but leveling up in those is always sweet.
 

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