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Games without HUDs

Kashmir Slippers

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What does everyone think about games that do not have health/mana/whatever bars? I know that a lot of shooters have gone this route for a more "cinematic" feel, but what about for games out of that genre?

For instance, I was playing Fable 3 a few weeks ago (shudder), and I died because the game opted against including a health bar in favor of a CoD-esque heartbeat and red-tinge system. My problem with it was that I couldn't really tell that I was one hit away from dieing. I was being miserly with my potions and healing item, so I had enough to help myself.

I know that the heartbeat was supposed to tell me that I was low on health, but it sounded more like a "I hope that the monster doesn't leap out from behind that pile of conveniently placed boxes and... AH I totally did not see that coming" rather than a "THIS THING IS CLAWING MY FACE OFF!!! THE PAIN!!!"

Long story short, I died on an easy game and feel cheated of my precious achievement. :oops:

Anyone else feel similarly?
 

MMXI

Arcane
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
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RPGs without visible numerical statistics are pretty much shit because it places a huge emphasis on the player's ability to judge the state of the character, which is a massive no no in my book.

You can show the strength of a character purely from the size of their muscles. You can show the dexterity of a character from their shape. You can show the health of a character from the amount of wounds on their body. But tell me, what is the fucking point? Molyneux might think of this as added immersion, while I just think of it as anti-RPG.
 

DraQ

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MMXI said:
RPGs without visible numerical statistics are pretty much shit because it places a huge emphasis on the player's ability to judge the state of the character, which is a massive no no in my book.

You can show the strength of a character purely from the size of their muscles. You can show the dexterity of a character from their shape. You can show the health of a character from the amount of wounds on their body. But tell me, what is the fucking point? Molyneux might think of this as added immersion, while I just think of it as anti-RPG.
Well, technically the definition of HUD specifically excludes all kinds of character screens, inventories and other menus that need to be opened manually and have to be exited before normal gameplay can continue.

I can imagine an RPG where you build your character using precise numeric characteristics, then play using non-numeric audiovisual cues for most stuff other than inventory contents and text IO.

Going fable 3 where nice and ergonomic inventory got replaced with running around your mansion or whatever is, of course, retarded.
 

I.C. Wiener

Educated
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Jan 16, 2010
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353
Despite the game's overall borderline-popamole design I liked the (pseudo-) no HUD from Dead Space. You can see your health, ammo and that semi-useless time slow thing either as lights on the protagonist's back or on a screen floating over his gun. Even the menus and "quest compass" are implemented as objects which exist in the game world rather than being plastered on the screen. Seems like the sort of thing RPG devs obsessed with 'immersion' would latch onto, since it's modernized without sacrificing functionality.

I can't think of any games with absolutely no HUD whatsoever that I've enjoyed. I'm probably forgetting one that was good despite it, but overall I think it makes a good indicator of a bad game.
 

waywardOne

Arcane
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Aug 28, 2010
Messages
2,318
i find non-HUD eccentricities to be far more intrusive than the normal status indicators. more than that, they're fucking distracting. if i want life-like simulation of combat, i'll check out some MMA lessons at the local gym. fuck you, ME2, and your heartbeat and goddamn red veins pulsing on the edges of my screen. just let me press TAB and get a number over my character's head.
 

baronjohn

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Games shouldn't have HUDs unless it's justified in-game like the cybernetic interface in System Shock 2. Maybe a little health bar when your character's low on health, or an ammo bar when you're reloading, but it's better to do these things through in-game means, for instance in Silent Hill you knew your characters were low on health because they were limping.

Of course there could be a seperate stat screen that shows every stat in full detail, as long as it's not part of the HUD.
 

Andyman Messiah

Mr. Ed-ucated
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There should always be a visual or text that shows how you're doing. To not have something like that is wrong and I think we should sue them and get a lot of money so we can buy back the search function.
 

314159

Educated
Joined
Mar 26, 2010
Messages
568
Can anyone explain why all these workarounds (screen getting red etc) are better ways of emulating the somatosensory system?
 

DraQ

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314159 said:
Can anyone explain why all these workarounds (screen getting red etc) are better ways of emulating the somatosensory system?

:stupid: on the subject of interfaces being mostly workarounds.

The main advantage of minimalistic interfaces is that they are unobtrusive (immershun!!!1), don't occupy actual screen estate in their default state, and can double as part of perception malus. They can also be used without looking at specific part of the screen and may be implemented by the means of in-world objects which may also help tie mechanics and presentation together.

The only "but" is that good minimalistic interface should do a good job conveying messages in unambiguous manner and that can be problematic. The only exception is when the interface is left purposefully ambiguous to prompt a sort of gamble on part of the player - for example "I'm really messed up badly, better use that medkit NOW", but that doesn't seem to be much of a good design, at least not in isolation. You can also forget about conveying any but simplest non-audiovisual cues through minimalistic audiovisual interface - text feedback is indispensable here.

There is also another purpose of interfaces other than workaround - convenience. For example, if my character has money in his inventory his funds will generally be displayed on inventory screen as a number. In this case inventory screen isn't just a workaround helping with inability to actually rummage through my character's baggage, but also an immense convenience because it frees me from having to count the coins manually. Same applies for all stacks of small objects present in inventory.

As for examples, I wasn't fond of DS approach, as back-display struck me as rather retarded. Holographic displays were cool, though and good shot at moving the interface into the world. For HP and related indicators it would be better if the game was FPP and damage taken would translate to visible suit damage - cracked visor, torn gasket, smudges of blood on the glass, hissing leaks and so on.

OTOH good example was Terra Nova - all indicators and gauges were essentially in-universe parts of the inside of your helmet, additionally subsystem damage was reflected by their dimnishing performance (you didn't have to look at your status screen to know that your visual sensors were failing if your view was almost constantly tearing and going out of focus) and your general health status by visible suit damage.

Of course games without any sort of justified electronic feedback are going to have a hard time following TNs lead, but in TPP games it should be easy to visualize damage, same with FPP with body awareness, with aid of various hit-faders and such helping you keep general track of your state when you can't examine yourself.
Still, for complex damage models some form of text feedback is a necessity even if the aim is to minimize interface.

Another good example of GUI-less game was Another World. Since you were a 1HP wonder in this game you didn't get any sort of health feedback, but your weapon's charge was shown using single led on the back of the weapon, while the firing mode was displayed directly using special effects as the weapon charged.

tl;dr
Interface should usually be minimized but no more than it's possible without the loss of functionality.
*Capt. Obvious*
 

King Crispy

Too bad I have no queen.
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Strap Yourselves In
With games that you're primarly enjoying for teh graffix, whether due to the game's original intent or not, it's sometimes nice to go HUDless.

Take DA2 for example. Once you realize there's nothing worthy in that game besides occasionally graphically pleasing environments, which get repeated as nauseum anyway, you might as well just turn off anything that's on the screen and enjoy what sights you can. I never could find a mod that allows the HUD to stay off all the time. Doesn't matter, though; the game is an abomination.

Another quick example: some of the auto-popup HUD remover mods for Oblivion were useful. Almost everyone eventually used a HUD reducer, at least, in that game's case. Same might be true for Skyrim, and I notice that Twitcher 2 uses a fairly minimalist interface, which I think will be a good thing.

Apologies for intermixing the terms HUD and interface.
 

DraQ

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Captain Shrek said:
DraQ said:
Captain Shrek said:
Only good for survival horror genre. Perhaps even a Survival horror RPG. Those claiming that visually available traits make an RPG, stop smoking dickweed and hit c on keyboard.
Why "only"?

Because I can't see myself playing Half life while not knowing what my health is?
I thought the whole point is to convey that without resorting to classical GUI.
 

MMXI

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But if you only have a visual representation of your underlying health, how do you go about making tactical decisions in or out of combat based on your understanding of the game rules? Visual health representation may work okay when every single character you can control has the same maximum health, but when you control a character with 10 health and another character with 150 health, surely knowing the exact numbers at all times is critical for the player?
 

Captain Shrek

Guest
DraQ said:
I thought the whole point is to convey that without resorting to classical GUI.

Because its more action packed. With action packed games you can't really waste time hunting for supplies.
 

Antihero

Liturgist
Joined
May 8, 2010
Messages
859
If there's no proper HUD in the game nowadays, it seems more like it's just to appease people psychologically by fading the annoying damage indicator overlay out rather than watching your health bar magically regenerate, which as we all know, should only be for shields. Never for health, because that's just popamole since it's red and not blue coloured.

Crispy said:
With games that you're primarly enjoying for teh graffix, whether due to the game's original intent or not, it's sometimes nice to go HUDless.
If it's that important, they can at least give you the choice in terms of a hotkey to toggle it on and off, maybe for screenshots if nothing else.

Take DA2 for example. I never could find a mod that allows the HUD to stay off all the time. Doesn't matter, though; the game is an abomination.
1) Look up the names of all the *.gfx files. Create blank files with the same name. Throw into your override directory. The wonders of middleware UI solutions.
2) ??? Probably can't even access the main menu anymore, following my indiscriminate advice.
3) Profit!

Presuming you couldn't just press the V-key like in Origins, or if you wanted a more permanent solution than that.


Captain Shrek said:
DraQ said:
I thought the whole point is to convey that without resorting to classical GUI.

Because its more action packed. With action packed games you can't really waste time hunting for supplies.

Action packed or just on rails? Besides, with third person cover shooters, a lot of your time is spent doing sweet all of interest anyway, even if it pretends to be another genre, like say an RPG. Trying to survive long enough until finding just one more medpack or ammo stash is what made some games a lot more interesting.
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
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May 3, 2011
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I'm not wholly opposed to HUDless games, but I think it only works properly in simulations, games that don't require the player to manage an inventory or resources, and games that don't rely on combat. If I'm playing a military simulator, I think manually keeping track of my ammo is a pretty reasonable expectation, but in a fast-paced arcade shooter, it really doesn't make much sense to deny that information to the player, since the game isn't about mimicing a real-life experience, but rather about creating a competitive environment to play in with a fixed and relatively easy to understand ruleset. Meanwhile, an adventure game could be either just fine without a HUD, or damaged by it - if it relies on self-contained challenges, or doesn't have any sort of inventory management, there's no problem, but when you start to add those systems a HUD becomes absolutely necessary.

It's also worth pointing out that in games, we lack three of our five most vital senses, touch most among them. We can't feel if our avatars have been injured, we have to rely on numbers and visual feedback like character animation to figure that out. HUD cues and interface sound effects exist largely because we simply can't know the state of the game in the same way we know the real world. Adding to that is the temporal factor. I can put down a game for days, weeks or even months before coming back to it, but what if I didn't have a HUD? I might know what items I have right now, but without some sort of record for the player to consult, it's impossible to just jump back into most games.

Ignoring the simulation component of games, of course, we've also got plenty of genres which are fundamentally abstractions. Chess is an abstraction of real-world warfare just as much as a strategy game like StarCraft is, and in those cases a HUD or at least some sort of easy-to-understand graphical representation of the world is necessary (in chess, it's the pieces and their positioning on the game board). These sorts of titles would be near-impossible without HUDs or HUD-like representations; it doesn't really count as HUDless for me if you still give all that information the same way, but put it on the character's gun instead of an out-of-universe status display.

As someone pointed out earlier, HUDs define RPGs because RPGs are defined by numbers. In a genre that's all about character skill instead of player skill, stats serve as a way to communicate the status of the world and the characters in it, and the game depends upon the player understanding that status, in order to make decisions based on it. As soon as you take those numbers away from the player, you don't have an RPG anymore - you have an action game. Imagine a racing sim where you can't see your speedometre... it makes the game more challenging, but does it make it more fun? Does it feel fair? No, because at that point you aren't making decisions based on solid information, you're playing a guessing game, and there's little challenge or reward in such things. Meanwhile, in Mario Kart there's no need for a way to check your speed, because you can so quickly and easily gauge it relative to the other racers, and there's really only two speeds for gameplay purposes, "fast" and "slow", and if you're slow, you're Doing It Wrong.

I've never been the biggest fan of trying to shoehorn the interface into the game world. I really hated Dead Space because it tried to make sense of all those necessary videogame abstractions, in a way that felt completely at odds with the realism of the world. Really? So they make mining suits that have health indicators on their backs? For who to see? Why? Some of the holographic stuff was fine with me, but harder to read than a conventional HUD. System Shock 2, Metroid Prime etc. do a much better job of it, and in those cases it didn't feel forced, but that's largely because they used traditional HUDs anyway, just modified for aesthetic "flavour" purposes.

As a gamer, I am more than willing to accept that games aren't VR simulators, and that we need HUDs. As a designer, I think a well-made HUD is necessary for most games, and it's better to roll with them than to try to force a design that requires a HUD into a HUDless space, not to mention that a well-made HUD can actually help enhance the feel of the world - we feel more connected to the worlds of Fallout, Planescape, Assassin's Creed, Half-Life, BioShock, etc. , not less, because the HUDs serve as believable portals into them. There is just no reason to get rid of them, and I don't see why we should try. It strikes me as just yet another gimmick.
 

MajorNova

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Mar 7, 2011
Messages
43
Depends on the game and what are you trying to acomplish. Lets take Grim Fandago for example, game is pretty much hud-less , only with "main menu" sort of thing, and it worked rather well (or you hated it, doesent matter, game was still very playable).

For RPGs general hud-less style wont work imo, RPG without stats is no longer RPG basically, and displaying various stats as something ingame is gonna be hard , if not impossible.
 

deuxhero

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Depends on how you define HUD. I can think of a handful of games with various meter on the character's helemts that seem to exist in-universe.
 

sser

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Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth was essentially HUD-less. Was a fantastic game, too.
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
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Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
DraQ said:
Captain Shrek said:
Only good for survival horror genre. Perhaps even a Survival horror RPG. Those claiming that visually available traits make an RPG, stop smoking dickweed and hit c on keyboard.
Why "only"?

He played RE or parasite eve and liked it.
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
If a game doesn't have a HUD, I MAKE one. Real life didn't have a HUD, so I MADE ONE. More things should have HUDs! HUDs are the greatest interface idea ever!
 

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