GDC 2007: The Evolution of the RPG at 1UP

[The Rambling Sage]

Except you ar emissing one imporant fact. Most of the larger develoeprs also started small. Everyone here seems to go on the nonsensical belief that large devloeprs (or any company) was always big. That's simply not true. Most of 'em started of small, liked role-playing, and started making them as part of that dream. Money was motivation; but their motivation is they lvoed games.

BIO, who gets a lot of flack, ar eone such company. The owners are fuckin' doctors who loved games so much they changed the entire focus of their lives to making games. They weren't big from the start. They earned that by making games people wanted to play 9and, that they wnated to play).


R00fles!

I think you are confusing Small with Independant: I was talking about the indy scene, and you were talking about those too. So, i answered in those terms. Now, if we go to discuss small developers it is another story alltogheter.

And do not preach me about Bio, as i actually like them. I do not badmouth them for being idiots, but for being actually quite skilled and with an obvious flair for storytelling and then limiting themselves to make dumbed down games when they could do better, just because dumbed down games sell more and have a wider appeal. The same situation with Blizzard, and it's famous "let's dumb this cool warcraft III thing this guy was working on down until it is so sellable it hurts."

My problem with them is my problem with the "market" and how they suck its private parts tenderly and softly, and hope they get a mouthful of money out of it - not a problem with their skills. The one game from Bio i truly hate is NWN, but that is an story for another time.

I think that make me a heretic around here, but whatever.

 

[Elwro]

Thanks for the "ICO" replies, guys, never heard about this one before. Still, it won't make me buy a TV and PS2 :D.

emulators?...

 

[Elhoim]

Thanks for the "ICO" replies, guys, never heard about this one before. Still, it won't make me buy a TV and PS2 :D.

emulators?...

http://www.pcsx2.net/

 

[M0RBUS]

The world is doomed, that's for sure, but with people like Molyneux and Sakaguchi, games are doomed too, never to stand out as a trully new thing and media art...

 

[Commissioner]

Molyneux isn't a complete hack, or at least he wasn't a complete hack, although his forays into the RPG genre have been disastrous from a CRPGs gamer’s perspective. Games like Dungeon Keeper and Populas still stand up as games in their genres done right.

 

[Fez]

He's been milking that goodwill from Populous for a long time now. Populous was a long time ago now and he's not making great games with the old Bullfrog team any more.

 

[tunguska]

So is this the end of real CRPGs as we have known and loved them? Maybe. Enter the CRPG-lite as the best that we can hope for and the action-RPG (or faux-RPG) as the best that we are going to get. It seems like all developers eventually succumb to the money-first syndrome. The difference between small and large developers is that the large ones are usually farther along the same (well-worn) path. Arkane Studios is one recent example. Although their Arx Fatalis was essentially in the RPG-lite genre, it was a well-thought out, highly immersive game. And one of my favorites. A small company. Their first game. And their next game is a true action RPG, perhaps a good one, but still. They were going to do an Arx2 but apparently couldn't find the funds. Here were enthusiastic and talented devs who just couldn't find investors for anything but a dumbed-down-for-the-masses title. I do see a pattern. The Speilberg-ing of the CRPG genre. Dumbed-down games sell more. There is no denying it. Another obvious pattern. What developer can resist the temptation of that? Embrace and extend. Embrace and extend. Embrace and extend. The same pattern can be seen in films as well. As a form of power, money corrupts. It's just a universal law. The developers can't feed their families with the warm fuzzy feeling of having produced the greatest CRPG known to man (based on their own standards). And the popularity of gaming consoles is not helping what was already a dire situation.

 

[Krafter]

Yeah, Arkane is a perfect example. They go from RPG (light) to a first-person melee game to a quasi multiplayer FPS. These guys, based on numerous developer posts at TTLG, want to do RPGs but can't find the funding. They are even established now, and have no clout enough to make an RPG they want to make. Imagine what the chances for a theoretical new unproven Black Isle or Troika to get fundung, then? Ugh.

 

[doctor_kaz]

So is this the end of real CRPGs as we have known and loved them? Maybe. Enter the CRPG-lite as the best that we can hope for and the action-RPG (or faux-RPG) as the best that we are going to get. It seems like all developers eventually succumb to the money-first syndrome. The difference between small and large developers is that the large ones are usually farther along the same (well-worn) path. Arkane Studios is one recent example. Although their Arx Fatalis was essentially in the RPG-lite genre, it was a well-thought out, highly immersive game. And one of my favorites. A small company. Their first game. And their next game is a true action RPG, perhaps a good one, but still. They were going to do an Arx2 but apparently couldn't find the funds. Here were enthusiastic and talented devs who just couldn't find investors for anything but a dumbed-down-for-the-masses title. I do see a pattern. The Speilberg-ing of the CRPG genre. Dumbed-down games sell more. There is no denying it. Another obvious pattern. What developer can resist the temptation of that? Embrace and extend. Embrace and extend. Embrace and extend. The same pattern can be seen in films as well. As a form of power, money corrupts. It's just a universal law. The developers can't feed their families with the warm fuzzy feeling of having produced the greatest CRPG known to man (based on their own standards). And the popularity of gaming consoles is not helping what was already a dire situation.

Dumbed down sells more? Did Inivisible War and Fallout: BOS outsell their predecessors? Did Jade Empire outsell the Baldurs Gate series? Did Dreamfall outselll the Longest Journey?

 

[Lumpy]

Did Jade Empire outsell the Baldurs Gate series?

How is it possible to dumb down the Baldur's Gate series?
BG2 is pretty good as a game, but it can't really require any less thought to play.

 

[Texas Red]

Did Jade Empire outsell the Baldurs Gate series?

How is it possible to dumb down the Baldur's Gate series?
BG2 is pretty good as a game, but it can't really require any less thought to play.

BG2 combat actually requires thought. Anyone who isnt familiar with the rules, heck even the game, *will* have difficulties. I dont know why you are lying. An average teenage American in this day would drop the game after discovering that simply nuking a lich and sending fighters against it gets him killed.

Even if you up the difficulty level to its highest and you are a veteran BG2 player, then the game is still more harder than the newer Biowhore/Obsidian titles.

 

[Dementia Praecox]

Even if you up the difficulty level to its highest and you are a veteran BG2 player, then the game is still more harder than the newer Biowhore/Obsidian titles.

what

 

[Volourn]

TWD is so full of bullshit, he doesn't even know what he posts. What a moron.

 

[Krafter]

Dumbed down sells more? Did Inivisible War and Fallout: BOS outsell their predecessors? Did Jade Empire outsell the Baldurs Gate series? Did Dreamfall outselll the Longest Journey?

The answer, of course, is none of these even came close to outselling their far superior predecessors. Dreamfall was such a complete failure that they are scrapping Dreamfall 2 (notice how its not called Longest Journey 3) and going the episodic route, setting up a MMO in the same universe.

These bean-counter types are accountants and businessmen that have no idea about gaming whatsoever. Accountant Dumbshit reads on Gamespot that consoles are cool and hip. Businessman fuckbag reads that an xbox game is next-generation, so it must be better. Thus, we get crap like the upcoming Wing Commander game, which apparently will be a downloadable xbox multiplayer game. No shit.

As long as these guys make the call and the passionate game developers don't, we're done. It dosen't even have to sell more, as long as these guys think it will sell more. Ugh.

 

[Volourn]

Jade Empire is better than BG. And, it's almost as good as BG2. Nice try, dummies.

 

[Julio]

Jade Empire is so dry and soulless. It's a chore to play through it, and the combat system is broken beyond belief. BG2 was much more complicated and rewarding. It had better writing, characters, role-playing, quests, personality, graphics and art direction. And I'm not even a fan of BG2! Jade Empire is the penultimate distillation of BioWare's game design philosophies as adapted for a younger console audience. (Mass Effect will be the ultimate.)

 

[Volourn]

No.

The fact you leave out KOTOR when mentioning BIO games that lack stuff shows your foolishness.

LONG LIVE JE! DOWN WITH KOTOR!

 

[tunguska]

Okay. So it isn't a universal law of the universe. There are a few exceptions. It's just a rule of thumb. And one that works pretty damn well in general. Embrace and extend doesn't always work, but it works often enough for money oriented/motivated development houses to consider it reliable. Would I use it if I were developing games. No way. I would just make a game that I would most like to play. Period. If no one else likes it, they don't have to buy it. That's how art is supposed to work. You do realize how easy it is to produce counter-examples like Oblivion/Morrowind/Daggerfall, WoW, Diablo etc... Sometimes when you dumb down the game too much you lose your original demographic completely (Fallout:BOS) without getting the action lovers on board either. And in that case the original demographic may not even own a console to play it. I don't personally even consider Deus Ex to be an RPG. Aside from money savings the dumbing down is not intentional it's just a byproduct of embracing your current demographic (tightly so as not to let them go) while also seeking to extend to the kind of person that would *never* have considered playing a game like that before. I remember feargus urquhuart (god rest his soul) was always talking about this stuff in his interviews.

 

[doctor_kaz]

Did Jade Empire outsell the Baldurs Gate series?

How is it possible to dumb down the Baldur's Gate series?
BG2 is pretty good as a game, but it can't really require any less thought to play.

That's easy. Make a game called "Neverwinter Nights" or "Jade Empire".

Okay. So it isn't a universal law of the universe. There are a few exceptions. It's just a rule of thumb. And one that works pretty damn well in general. Embrace and extend doesn't always work, but it works often enough for money oriented/motivated development houses to consider it reliable. Would I use it if I were developing games. No way. I would just make a game that I would most like to play. Period. If no one else likes it, they don't have to buy it. That's how art is supposed to work. You do realize how easy it is to produce counter-examples like Oblivion/Morrowind/Daggerfall, WoW, Diablo etc... Sometimes when you dumb down the game too much you lose your original demographic completely (Fallout:BOS) without getting the action lovers on board either. And in that case the original demographic may not even own a console to play it. I don't personally even consider Deus Ex to be an RPG. Aside from money savings the dumbing down is not intentional it's just a byproduct of embracing your current demographic (tightly so as not to let them go) while also seeking to extend to the kind of person that would *never* have considered playing a game like that before. I remember feargus urquhuart (god rest his soul) was always talking about this stuff in his interviews.

So are games like Invisible War, Fallout: BOS, Jade Empire, Dreamfall, etc the exception or the rule? In this context, I would call them the rule. These developers build up a hardcore, more cerebral fan base by making deep and immersive, maybe not-so-"accessible" games. Then they try to capture a new audience by dumbing their games down, egotistically and somewhat naively, thinking that people who have never heard of them on the X-Box are going to buy their game based upon reputation alone. By doing this, they take a gigantic piss all over their core audience while making a mediocre game that fails to capture the hearts of the ritalin-challenged glue sniffers that they are aiming for. It's no surprise that games that come out in these situations usually fail.

Here's a couple of predictions: Bioshock will sell less than 250,000 copies on the X-Box 360 and Dragon Age will easily outsell Mass Effect.

 

[Surgey]

Shadow of the Colossus was amazing. It felt a little empty, but each colossus was unique, so it still was great.

*snip*Anyone who isnt familiar with the rules*snip*

And anyone who is, because they were awful rules, especially for a video game. And at times, BG2 was just too hard. The lich's were just plain unbalanced, luck-based crap. Or you had to be super high-level and have excellent equipment to even fight them, because AD&D was equipment-based crap.

 

[Shannow]

And anyone who is, because they were awful rules, especially for a video game. And at times, BG2 was just too hard. The lich's were just plain unbalanced, luck-based crap. Or you had to be super high-level and have excellent equipment to even fight them, because AD&D was equipment-based crap.

IIRC you don't have to fight any lich. I don't think it is a bad feature that a better player should get more rewards than a bad player. And if i managed to get through every battle in the game, at least 20% of all other players should manage that too.

 

[Krafter]

Here's a couple of predictions: Bioshock will sell less than 250,000 copies on the X-Box 360 and Dragon Age will easily outsell Mass Effect.

Honestly, that would be awesome, and it could happen. Then, hopefully, we'll see more PC-centric stuff out of Bioware and Irrational in the future.

 

[Texas Red]

Here's a couple of predictions: Bioshock will sell less than 250,000 copies on the X-Box 360 and Dragon Age will easily outsell Mass Effect.

Honestly, that would be awesome, and it could happen. Then, hopefully, we'll see more PC-centric stuff out of Bioware and Irrational in the future.

Excuse me but this sort of dumbing down of PC series for the console kiddies has been happening for years. It almost always fails and yet they still try to push their game to the Xbox.

Biowhore is not the future. Sure, Dragon Age was supposedly announced to be PC only several years ago, if Im not mistaken. Right now it has a new engine and is *still* only in the beginning stages with a small team working on it. Mass Effect was announced much later and will be released this May or some such. Despite what was said in the beginning, the developer who frequents this forum is not even sure if the game is PC exclusive. It is either vaporware or yet another port from Biowhore. Perhaps a port *to* the consoles but that doesnt matter.

If Biowhore is truly aiming at the RPG fansbase then the game will have proper turn based combat. Somehow I doubt there will be TB, for Biowhore is surely in the opinion that RPGers enjoy to watch the chaotically running arounds ants on the screen while constantly pressing pause.

 

[AlanC9]

And at times, BG2 was just too hard. The lich's were just plain unbalanced, luck-based crap. Or you had to be super high-level and have excellent equipment to even fight them, because AD&D was equipment-based crap.

Oh, please. You need a magic weapon to hit a lich, but that's it. Defeating them is a matter of using your spellcasters properly. There are one or two magic items that can help, but they're not necessary.

Liches are also vulnerable to cheap exploits, like getting out of their LOS and sending pets in. They expend their spells on the pets, you wait until the durations expire on their protection spells, then kill them.

BG2 doesn't require much thought. You need some knowledge of the system, but after that you just run the standard playbook. Though TOEE was even worse in that regard.

 

[Volourn]

"Right now it has a new engine and is *still* only in the beginning stages with a small team working on it."

Youa re an idiot. DA is further than the beginning stages, and define small team 'cause I bet it's team is alrger than you claim. Moron. You sound like Hades with your retarded
'vapourware' comment.

DA is PC exclusive for now. If it goes multi platform; big fuckin' deal. They did it with JE. Boo fuckin' hoo.


P.S. The chances of BIO making a TB game is very low. They don't care about the turn base fanboys. Get over it.