Development Info Girls can find love too in NWN2

[kingcomrade]

 

[suibhne]

Personally, I'm glad they seem to be implementing 3.5E fairly faithfully (fingers crossed). There's some stupid stuff in 3.5E, but I'd still rather get an honest implementation than the ridiculous half-assed stuff that Bioware pulled out of thin air for the first NWN.

Haven't played ToEE, have you? There will never be another D&D game as faithful to the ruleset. If you're expecting a NWN game to feature any sort of faithfulness to D&D then I don't know what to tell you, mang, except "don't get your hopes up".

I finished ToEE several times; I liked the combat even more than JA2's. Vollie can even tell you that I was one of the Codex's chief ToEE defenders back in the day - I had no shame.

That doesn't change my point that NWN's implementation sucked and I'm hoping NWN2 is much more betterer.

 

[aweigh]

Well sure, with Obsidian behind the reins it's pretty much a given that NWN2 will outclass the first one in every single area.

Of course, an 8 year-old with down's syndrome could improve upon NWN.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Well sure, with Obsidian behind the reins it's pretty much a given that NWN2 will outclass the first one in every single area.

And most likely get lower ratings despite this.

 

[Seven]

Well sure, with Obsidian behind the reins it's pretty much a given that NWN2 will outclass the first one in every single area.

And most likely get lower ratings despite this.

ISn't that what happened with KOTOR 2. It's amazing how shameless reviewers are. They praised the mechanics as being better than perfection for the first and then fault the same mechanics in the second, not to mention the companions and story telling was better in the second.

But then again, aren't these the same people who are now telling us that Oblivion is flawless, just like FO3 will be flawless?

 

[MINIGUNWIELDER]

 

[MINIGUNWIELDER]

Well sure, with Obsidian behind the reins it's pretty much a given that NWN2 will outclass the first one in every single area.

And most likely get lower ratings despite this.

ISn't that what happened with KOTOR 2. It's amazing how shameless reviewers are. They praised the mechanics as being better than perfection for the first and then fault the same mechanics in the second, not to mention the companions and story telling was better in the second.

But then again, aren't these the same people who are now telling us that Oblivion is flawless, just like FO3 will be flawless?

agreed

 

[Volourn]

Eh. KOTOR2 wans't better than KOTOR1. Nice try.. though both games ar eoverrated.

And, there are things NWN2 is doing 'worse' than NWN1. And, some things it's doing 'better'.

I think, overall, it'll be better as sequels *should* be better.

I'm sure Obsidian won't make the same mistakes they did with KOTOR2.

LONG LIVE NWN! YAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYA!!!!

 

[aweigh]

Eh. KOTOR2 wans't better than KOTOR1.

It was.

I'm sure Obsidian won't make the same mistakes they did with KOTOR2.

What mistakes, making it better than the first one?

You lose.

 

[Drain]

And, there are things NWN2 is doing 'worse' than NWN1

Examples, please.

 

[MrBrown]

What's this about "transparent" and "opaque" dialogue choices? As if the real meaning of dialogue choices is supposed to be hidden from the player... It seems to me the rewiever was just asking whether the dialogue is badly written or not.

EDIT: Though, if the developers are forced to add good and evil choices just for the sake of it, I doubt much good dialogue will come from it...

 

[WouldBeCreator]

As I understand it, a "transparent" dialogue choice is one where the consequences are obvious, whereas an "opaque" choice is one where the consequences are not clear, and a "totally opaque" choice is one where the consequences are totally unknown.

At the extremes, that would be:

Transparent
1. [Attack him]
2. [Make friends with him]
3. [Bribe him]
4. [End conversation]

Semi-Opaque
1. [Hostile]
2. [Friendly]
3. [Conspiratorial]
4. [End conversation]

Where it's unclear what the precise consequnces of a hostile statement will be (will a fight start, will he back down, will he respect your warrior ways and become a friend), a friendly statement (will your unctuousness turn him off, will it make him like you), a conspiratorial statement (will he get violent at the insult to his honor, will he rat you out, etc.).

Opaque
1. A
2. B
3. C
4. D

Where these statements don't track to any foreseeable outcome.

But in practice, it's less what the dialogues say -- you could have the same dialogue in each case -- and more whether the result will be predictable. So, option 1 could always be, "It's time for you to die!" In a game with transparent dialogues, you know that a statement like that always initiates fights, whereas a statement like, "I'll kill you unless you help me" is an attempted threat that doesn't start fights. In a game with semi-opaque dialogue, making that statement to a bruiser would start a fight, to a merchant would make him back down. In a totally opaque game, the bruiser might back down because it turns out, unbeknownst to the player, he's a coward.

The middle route seems ideal to me, but games seldom seem to hit it.

 

[FaranBrygo]

My wish list of npcs to romance:

A hot young angsty elf troubled by her dark past - want to know what's the secret of her past?

She has a cock.

I've been thinking about game romances and I have a hard time coming up with any that did not sound forced or were poorly written. I guess it reflects the writers and designers though. I can only think of two games with passable romances, Pandora Directive and Circle of Blood.

Was Pandora Directive a RPG?

 

[Rat Keeng]

BG 2 had some real good romances, what with the angsty elf you had to put up with, and the abusive elf you had to take shit from, and the rough 'n' tumble elf you had to be strong for, but at the same time be sensitive and caring for. Not that I'm at all interested in those romances, I got it on with that dishy knight instead, what a dreamboat!

Examples of games with good romances can be found here

 

[Crazy_Vasey]

ISn't that what happened with KOTOR 2. It's amazing how shameless reviewers are. They praised the mechanics as being better than perfection for the first and then fault the same mechanics in the second, not to mention the companions and story telling was better in the second.

But then again, aren't these the same people who are now telling us that Oblivion is flawless, just like FO3 will be flawless?

Except for the fact that Obsidian took a game that was already far too easy and removed the level cap to make it even easier while also introducing vast numbers of items that boosted your character's stats. The game had some of the most broken game mechanics I've ever seen. And it just fell apart after the confrontation with the Jedi Council. The end plays like it was chucked together in the last week of development and then shovelled out of the door. KOTOR 1 was much less ambitious in many ways but at least it wasn't blatantly unfinished.

 

[aweigh]

ISn't that what happened with KOTOR 2. It's amazing how shameless reviewers are. They praised the mechanics as being better than perfection for the first and then fault the same mechanics in the second, not to mention the companions and story telling was better in the second.

But then again, aren't these the same people who are now telling us that Oblivion is flawless, just like FO3 will be flawless?

Except for the fact that Obsidian took a game that was already far too easy and removed the level cap to make it even easier while also introducing vast numbers of items that boosted your character's stats. The game had some of the most broken game mechanics I've ever seen. And it just fell apart after the confrontation with the Jedi Council. The end plays like it was chucked together in the last week of development and then shovelled out of the door. KOTOR 1 was much less ambitious in many ways but at least it wasn't blatantly unfinished.

KOTOR1 was just as broken and full of munchkin items, and its find the Holocrons routine was even worse than the Jedi Council. It's end-game as well was just as boring and featured the same hordes of unending enemies present in KOTOR2's Malachor V.

You can't fault K2 for anything that isn't already a "feature" in K1, however you can praise it for outshining its predecessor in more important areas like storytelling and characters.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

And it just fell apart after the confrontation with the Jedi Council. The end plays like it was chucked together in the last week of development and then shovelled out of the door.

KotOR1's ending wasn't that great, either. The final planet was okay, but once you get to the ending location, it was just a respawning, ever long corridor up to the point where you have to fight the bad guy. Okay, there's a brief interlude where you get to kill Bastilla, but that's about it.

 

[Crazy_Vasey]

KOTOR1 was just as broken and full of munchkin items, and its find the Holocrons routine was even worse than the Jedi Council. It's end-game as well was just as boring and featured the same hordes of unending enemies present in KOTOR2's Malachor V.

No, it wasn't. Saying that the game mechanics were as broken in the first as the second is pure Obsidian fanboyism. Just taking away the level-cap on its own fucks the game balance every which way and you cannot seriously be telling me that you thought the original had as many munchkin items as the second. Just that stupid fucking lightsabre crystal alone proves you wrong and every item seemed to have great skill bonuses than the original. Every item I picked up after the first couple of planets seemed to have gigantic skill and/or attribute bonuses on it. I didn't even bother putting skill point on most things because I could just pull some items out if I ever need to use most skills.

Can't forget the ridiculously fast regeneration of both health and force points either. You hardly ever need to use the medpacs in the game thanks to that. Just stand around for a while and you'll be fine.

Sure, the original had fucking awful game balance, but the solution to that isn't to take away the only things keeping the difficulty even vaguely in check.

And finding the four Jedi Masters is just as lame a plot device as finding the four Star Maps.

You can't fault K2 for anything that isn't already a "feature" in K1, however you can praise it for outshining its predecessor in more important areas like storytelling and characters.

Except that the story loses all coherancy at the end and has holes you could drive an eighteen wheel truck through. I'll give you the characters to an extent. Visas and Kreia are great, but some of the others are truly irritating.

KotOR1's ending wasn't that great, either. The final planet was okay, but once you get to the ending location, it was just a respawning, ever long corridor up to the point where you have to fight the bad guy. Okay, there's a brief interlude where you get to kill Bastilla, but that's about it.

No, it wasn't. But it was polished. KOTOR2 had half-a-dozen seemingly disconnected segments of gameplay that somehow, supposedly make an ending. It's garbage. I loved the game right up till the end and then it was quite possibly the biggest letdown this side of MOO3. It doesn't help that the bosses were even weaker than Malak in the original either.

 

[suibhne]

Both of them have terrible endings. Both of them also have some terrible mid-game portions (that ridiculous alien bar in KotOR2, e.g.). I enjoyed KotOR2 much more and was consequently much more disappointed in it, but neither one is a good example of slam-bang-whizzo RPG game development.

The difference is that KotOR failed because its design was too crude and limited; KotOR2 failed because it had a much more ambitious, compelling design that Obsidian just couldn't deliver (for whatever reason - Lucasarts, their own undisciplined dev process, w/e). If they can take the breadth of their original KotOR2 design and some of the narrative and dialogue sophistication, and join it with a more successful design process, maybe we'll see great things out of NWN2.

Still trying to keep my expectations low. :wink:

 

[Crazy_Vasey]

The writing was certainly more ambitious in KOTOR2 but I wouldn't say the design was a great deal moreso than the original. Most areas seemed to boil down to killing the fuck out of everything that moved just like in the original game. I suppose they at least got past the 'broken down yet repairable robot near every combat zone' thing if nothing else.

Then again, it's probably not fair to judge their design capabilites on KOTOR2. They were likely rather constrained in many ways what with the short development time and having to use the same game engine as the original game.

 

[suibhne]

The writing was certainly more ambitious in KOTOR2 but I wouldn't say the design was a great deal moreso than the original. Most areas seemed to boil down to killing the fuck out of everything that moved just like in the original game. I suppose they at least got past the 'broken down yet repairable robot near every combat zone' thing if nothing else.

KotOR2 had many more instances of multiple solutions for different character skills. (E.g., Repair, Security, and speech skills were much more useful.) It also had a broad design approach in which several of the "villains" would actually be redeemable, as well as an entire planet that was cut out relatively late. The original design even called for major consequences depending on how you developed your relationships with other party members. I wouldn't say it was the cat's meow, exactly, and the game still had a ton of mindless combat slogs no better than the end of the original KotOR, but overall it set out to do much more interesting stuff imo. I just wish they could have come close to delivering.

 

[Seven]

Except for the fact that Obsidian took a game that was already far too easy and removed the level cap to make it even easier while also introducing vast numbers of items that boosted your character's stats.

As if there weren't +6 stat enhancing items which could be got early in the original.

The game had some of the most broken game mechanics I've ever seen.

Well, I guess you must've missed these broken mechanics in the first (Bare in mind, we're talking about mechanics and not balance--there is a difference).

And it just fell apart after the confrontation with the Jedi Council. The end plays like it was chucked together in the last week of development and then shovelled out of the door. KOTOR 1 was much less ambitious in many ways but at least it wasn't blatantly unfinished.

As opposed to the first where everything is kill X Y or Z but do in an order that you choose?

No, it wasn't. Saying that the game mechanics were as broken in the first as the second is pure Obsidian fanboyism.

You shouldn't talk.

Just taking away the level-cap on its own fucks the game balance every which way and you cannot seriously be telling me that you thought the original had as many munchkin items as the second. Just that stupid fucking lightsabre crystal alone proves you wrong and every item seemed to have great skill bonuses than the original. Every item I picked up after the first couple of planets seemed to have gigantic skill and/or attribute bonuses on it. I didn't even bother putting skill point on most things because I could just pull some items out if I ever need to use most skills.

Because no one complained like whinny bitches about the level cap in the original, right--level caps are always going to be a point of contention for fans and developers, balance vs what people want. I'm not going to fault you just because you're on the other side of the fence. That said, yes, they should have done some thing to address balance (make leveling take longer, or what ever).

Except that the story loses all coherancy at the end and has holes you could drive an eighteen wheel truck through. I'll give you the characters to an extent. Visas and Kreia are great, but some of the others are truly irritating.

Comparatively, the holes and stupidity in the first are more glarring than the second--I am Darth Revan the most powerful sith EVAR, opps I forgot who I was because some one used a Jedi mindfuck on me; I wonder how that happened? There are some other things that I wanted to respond to but I busy right now, may be later.

 

[Crazy_Vasey]

As if there weren't +6 stat enhancing items which could be got early in the original.

The only +6 item I can remember in the original is the headband which gives +6 to wisdom and if you take down one of the nastiest enemies in the game at a low level then you damn well deserve an uber item for your efforts. This same item is also a random drop in KOTOR2. Generally I pick it up from one of the random bounty houters on Onderon though there was one game where it just didn't show. The Qel-Droma robes are fairly powerful as well but they too have a powerful enemy guarding them and are no more powerful than the random items in KOTOR2. The other uber items are only accessible at the very end of the game (Star Forge/Revan's robes and the two lightsabre crystals that you can get from the added content).

Well, I guess you must've missed these broken mechanics in the first (Bare in mind, we're talking about mechanics and not balance--there is a difference).

No, I didn't. The holes are just slightly less glaring with the level cap in place and considerably less over-the-top items in general. And seperating balance from mechanics is a totally arbitary distinction that I see no good reason to observe. You can't develop a good set of game mechanics without taking balance into account.

As opposed to the first where everything is kill X Y or Z but do in an order that you choose?

It might not be the most imaginative end ever but at least it's coherant and doesn't have obvious holes where they had to cut huge chunks out because of schedule overruns.

Because no one complained like whinny bitches about the level cap in the original, right--level caps are always going to be a point of contention for fans and developers, balance vs what people want. I'm not going to fault you just because you're on the other side of the fence. That said, yes, they should have done some thing to address balance (make leveling take longer, or what ever).

Any developer that develops according to the complaints of whiny fanboys deserves to be reamed out as far as I'm concerned. The KOTOR system would have worked fine if they'd kept the level cap, introduced more uses for the skills, and made the enemies tougher. Taking an easy game and then removing the level cap while also adding prestige classes and removing the early part where your levels are as a non-Jedi has consequences that should have been obvious to all involved.

Hell, it's not just that. They deliberately designed the bosses to have access to few powers and techniques. If you edit the game to give the Sith Lords access to the sort of powers you'd expect, it's much more challenging. That's just sloppy workmanship. It would have took all of five minutes to fix that but they didn't.

Comparatively, the holes and stupidity in the first are more glarring than the second--I am Darth Revan the most powerful sith EVAR, opps I forgot who I was because some one used a Jedi mindfuck on me; I wonder how that happened? There are some other things that I wanted to respond to but I busy right now, may be later.

You must have missed the whole cut-scene where Malak blew Revan up and he was mortally wounded, saved only by Bastila's powers. He certainly wasn't the unstoppable uber-Sith when he lost his memories, whether they be by brain damage or the efforts of the Jedi Council. As unimaginative and stereotypically Star Wars as the whole thing is, it does all hang together fairly well in the end.

 

[Drakron]

And that reminds me of how KotOR2 simply had to uber Revan with all that crap about "looking at him as looking at the heart of the Force" ...

Fuck, reading crap like that makes Lucas dialogue look good.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

The writing was certainly more ambitious in KOTOR2 but I wouldn't say the design was a great deal moreso than the original. Most areas seemed to boil down to killing the fuck out of everything that moved just like in the original game. I suppose they at least got past the 'broken down yet repairable robot near every combat zone' thing if nothing else.

KotOR2 also had the advantage of Obsidian knowing that Star Wars wasn't ANCIENT TEMPLE OF DOOOOOOOOM after ANCIENT TEMPLE OF DOOOOOOOOM. While there were some temple-ish areas in KotOR2, KotOR1 just felt like a D&D adventure with lightsabers. Lightsabers which worked just like any other sword, for the most part.

I'm not saying that KotOR2 didn't have a disjointed ending, like what was the deal with that Darth Whatever dude on the big, rusty ship that you kill? There wasn't a heck of a lot of character development on that protagonist. He just seemed like Kill the Sith Waypoint Number 1 rather than being something somewhat important to the story. He's got a huge ship, and he's supposedly a bad ass - but did anyone really care much about him?

That said, the planet before you get to the DARK SIDE FACTORY OF DOOOOOOOM in KotOR1 was pretty cheesy. The big problem with it was that it broke the tension of the plot. I've got all the pieces, I'm making my way to the DSFoD, and I wreck. Fine. Now I have time to get involved with planetary politics? What? The area wasn't poorly designed, it was just way out of place with the pace of what was going on in the bigger picture.

Both kind of lost their focus after you get the four vital pieces of the puzzle, but KotOR2's lack of focus seemed more an issue of running out of time as opposed to just not knowing what they're doing.