Gloomhaven - roguelike dungeon-crawling adaptation of the board game

[Lacrymas]

But they also don't have full decks like you do.

 

[Grunker]

This is a good example of time restriction because you have control over it and it seems natural.

Not really, since your enemies aren't subject to it...

Not the same as not having control over it. Most people who get frustrated by the mechanic overburn - including myself, when I started. Once you have a basic understanding of the value of different actions you stop losing to yourself being the cause of exhaustion and start losing because you didn't play well enough in the fights instead.

I fully understand personal objections to the time mechanics in themselves (I was skeptical myself) but as far as those mechanics go, it's probably the best implementation I've seen. Because it is so layered and so filled to the brim with player decisions. I've never lost a scenario in Gloomhaven where I didn't immediately explode with ideas about what I wanted to do different. That's the hallmark of a good game IMO - hard but with clear progress ahead for those who engage with the mechanics.

 

[pakoito]

It's maffs basically. If you burn a card in your first cycle you're depriving yourself of something like 4 turns down the line. The max turns you can have can be calculated from your max cards, but count with 15 on average. So big cards are more valuable than you think and should be used towards the middle or late turns of the scenario. The only exception are classes with auras, which you setup early in the game and forget about, but are also offset by a larger hand size.

It also depends on the scenario. In the GH campaign the first few missions are way too long, so the timer mechanic kicks in. Later on there are a handful where it's more of a race of movement or damage. This was fixed in new campaigns like Jaws of the Lion, which frontloads DPS races.

Sadly this also means that Stamina Potions are a must on every build, much more than extra health, damage or movement. The additional cards to play give those aplenty. This is supposed to be fixed in Frosthaven, but we'll see.

 

[Grunker]

If youa re dumb like me and thus need some more handholding for the maths, this video has you covered:

Stamina Potions are a must

You probably know this, but stam potions are cut in half by the errata nerf. So only one card. They're still probably the most useful potion, but they require more planning to use and don't extend your lifespan as much anymore. They were ridicoulous at 2 cards.

 

[Parabalus]

It's maffs basically. If you burn a card in your first cycle you're depriving yourself of something like 4 turns down the line. The max turns you can have can be calculated from your max cards, but count with 15 on average. So big cards are more valuable than you think and should be used towards the middle or late turns of the scenario. The only exception are classes with auras, which you setup early in the game and forget about, but are also accounted by a larger hand size.

It also depends on the scenario. In the GH campaign the first few missions are way too long, so the timer mechanic kicks in. Later on there are a handful where it's more of a race of movement or damage. This was fixed in new campaigns like Jaws of the Lion, which frontloads DPS races.

Sadly this also means that Stamina Potions are a must on every build, much more than extra health, damage or movement. The additional cards to play give those aplenty. This is supposed to be fixed in Frosthaven, but we'll see.

On the flip side, the first room often has you surrounded by a lot of enemies, making clearing them with burn very appealing. Easy to lose characters in the first round.

You also don't have a sense of how long a scenario is before playing it, so there is a lot of guesswork involved. Which is extremely fun and interactive, like Grunker mentions above.

If youa re dumb like me and thus need something more handholding for the maths, this video has you covered:

Stamina Potions are a must

You probably know this, but stam potions are cut in half by the errata nerf. So only one card. They're still probably the most useful potion, but they require more planning to use and don't extend your lifespan as much anymore. They were ridicoulous at 2 cards.

So they just removed the major stamina potions that are in digital?

Guess they partly removed it because of Three Spears, seems easy to go infinite rounds with him and stam potions.

 

[Whisper]

Used too many skills in first figth? Well in last fight you will auto-lose since you run out of cards to play.

git gud

gid gud yourself

 

[Grunker]

It's maffs basically. If you burn a card in your first cycle you're depriving yourself of something like 4 turns down the line. The max turns you can have can be calculated from your max cards, but count with 15 on average. So big cards are more valuable than you think and should be used towards the middle or late turns of the scenario. The only exception are classes with auras, which you setup early in the game and forget about, but are also accounted by a larger hand size.

It also depends on the scenario. In the GH campaign the first few missions are way too long, so the timer mechanic kicks in. Later on there are a handful where it's more of a race of movement or damage. This was fixed in new campaigns like Jaws of the Lion, which frontloads DPS races.

Sadly this also means that Stamina Potions are a must on every build, much more than extra health, damage or movement. The additional cards to play give those aplenty. This is supposed to be fixed in Frosthaven, but we'll see.

On the flip side, the first room often has you surrounded by a lot of enemies, making clearing them with burn very appealing. Easy to lose characters in the first round.

You also don't have a sense of how long a scenario is before playing it, so there is a lot of guesswork involved. Which is extremely fun and interactive, like Grunker mentions above.

If youa re dumb like me and thus need something more handholding for the maths, this video has you covered:

Stamina Potions are a must

You probably know this, but stam potions are cut in half by the errata nerf. So only one card. They're still probably the most useful potion, but they require more planning to use and don't extend your lifespan as much anymore. They were ridicoulous at 2 cards.

So they just removed the major stamina potions that are in digital?

Guess they partly removed it because of Three Spears, seems easy to go infinite rounds with him and stam potions.

I was imprecise and only commented on the minor stam potion (from 2->1) as I was typing on my phone. The nerf in its entirety is 1 fewer cards per potion. So 1 for minor, 2 for major. Which is how it works in digital.

In the board game, it's 2 for minor, 3 for major.

 

[v1rus]

You probably know this, but stam potions are cut in half by the errata nerf. So only one card. They're still probably the most useful potion, but they require more planning to use and don't extend your lifespan as much anymore. They were ridicoulous at 2 cards.

They are still goddamn ridiculous must buys, which I heavily dislike.

Frosthaven nerfs them even harder - they cant be recovered (which is a must), they are harder to obtain (ok), and can only recover a single lvl 1 card (good change imho. I'd prolly rule that includes the x cards, but eh.)

Big box Gloomhaven itself isnt THAT balanced and playtested, but Childres promises the opposite is true with Frosthaven. Still, i fucking love me some Gloomy, and sure hope Frosthaven delivers on its promises.

 

[Grunker]

You probably know this, but stam potions are cut in half by the errata nerf. So only one card. They're still probably the most useful potion, but they require more planning to use and don't extend your lifespan as much anymore. They were ridicoulous at 2 cards.

They are still goddamn ridiculous must buys, which I heavily dislike.

I very much agree - they're just not ludicrous as they used to be.

Or well, ridiculous is going to far after the nerf IMO. They went from "insanely OP" to "just the best potion."

 

[LESS T_T]

Expansion DLC is exposed by SteamDB, it's an adaptation of Jaws of the Lion, 2020 prequel: https://steamdb.info/app/1809490/

 

[Grunker]

Also, highlights of next patch is revealed. Basically the meat of what people have been asking for in terms of house rules and gui updates:

New House Rules:
1. Permanent Enhancement Options for Campaign Games, you will need to start a new Campaign to turn these on, others can be toggled on map screen.
2. Rebalance of Enhancement costs for Non Permanent Enhancement mode in Campaign, plus 75% sell back rebalance, Guildmaster mode unaffected.
3. Reduced Randomness
4. Frosthaven Summons with no focus can move towards summoner
5. Frosthaven Attack Modifier with Advantage/Disadvantage
6. Frosthaven Centre Hex Line of Sight addition
GUI Updates:
1. See Merc gold when in Gold Distribution screens
2. See Chests not looted on Completed Scenario Hover
3. Personal Quest progression improvements
4. See Cards when Long/Short Resting
5. Multiplayer Ping for Current Player

 

[Red Hexapus]

5. Frosthaven Attack Modifier with Advantage/Disadvantage

This one is amazing news - it removes the problem with weakening the character when choosing rolling modifiers at level up.

 

[Grunker]

5. Frosthaven Attack Modifier with Advantage/Disadvantage

This one is amazing news - it removes the problem with weakening the character when choosing rolling modifiers at level up.

Yeah it's the bee's knees - though my personal favourite change is GUI update 5. That one is pure:

in multiplayer games.

 

[pakoito]

I haven't caught up to FH rules updates, what are those changes exactly.

Also, can you houserule x2/null into +2/-2 already?

 

[Grunker]

I haven't caught up to FH rules updates, what are those changes exactly.

Also, can you houserule x2/null into +2/-2 already?

For your first question, the three changes are:

4. Summons now move towards summoner if there are no enemies
5. If you have advantage and draw a rolling card, keep drawing until you draw a non-rolling card, then draw 1 more card. Choose the best of the last two cards, and add all the rolling modifiers to it. Do the same with disadvantage except you choose the worst and ignore all rolling modifiers.
6. Instead of tracking LoS from the corner of one hex to another, you track it from the middle of one hex to the other, eliminating weird targeting almsot through walls.

Not sure about 6, but we'll definetely turn on 4 and 5 for our games.

For your second question, no. That might be what less randomness is about though? We sure as shit wouldn't be playing with such a rule

 

[pakoito]

Thanks! Has there been any more rule updates that you have a link for?

For your second question, no. That might be what less randomness is about though? We sure as shit wouldn't be playing with such a rule

It was a variant in the original manual. I'm not a huge fan of RNGesus and I lost a couple of scenarios to a null on a trashed card, so I started using it after the necromancer.

I should have removed it when my charas leveled up, because the x2 heavily offsets null. For JotL it doesn't matter much because it's a short campaign.

 

[vazha]

Sooo... Having read all these glowing and fuzzy comments on how good this stuff is, I couldnt resist and purchased it. It better be as gud as advertised, or ELSE!

 

[Grunker]

Thanks! Has there been any more rule updates that you have a link for?

To digital or Frosthaven? All the differences between digital and the boardgame are referenced in the video below (besides the houserules I listed which won't be added until sometime before the end of the year). For ALL the changes that will be coming in Frosthaven there's probably a list online. Reddit maybe.

I'm not a huge fan of RNGesus and I lost a couple of scenarios to a null on a trashed card, so I started using it after the necromancer.

Must admit I don't understand RNG-comments towards Gloomhaven, it already contains very little RNG. Especially once you start adding Perks to the mix. But to each his own, and it's cool that they're adding a variant with less RNG.

Sooo... Having read all these glowing and fuzzy comments on how good this stuff is, I couldnt resist and purchased it. It better be as gud as advertised, or ELSE!

Out of everyone I've recommended Gloomhaven to, one person so far didn't like it, and his reason was that it was a bit too mechanically complex. Now that he is no longer my friend, maybe you can supplant him

 

[Grunker]

Bear in mind the Frosthaven implementations that they'll add in the next patch will all be optional.

The new "permanent enhancements" house rule is actually the base rule in the boardgame. Isaac said they were permanent only because the practicality of stickers on cards forced him to make them permanent, so the digital version uses his original vision. They're only adding the permanent enhancements back in because a lot of people complained.

 

[Lacrymas]

The RNG people complain about are the attack modifiers. A friend of mine really doesn't like them. I don't mind them however because I'm used to much more relentless RNG.

 

[Parabalus]

Bear in mind the Frosthaven implementations that they'll add in the next patch will all be optional.

The new "permanent enhancements" house rule is actually the base rule in the boardgame. Isaac said they were permanent only because the practicality of stickers on cards forced him to make them permanent, so the digital version uses his original vision. They're only adding the permanent enhancements back in because a lot of people complained.

From my experience in digital campaign I barely got to enchant anything before the character retired. The >300 gold enchantments seem insane to burn money on.

Not surprised people complained.

 

[Grunker]

The RNG people complain about are the attack modifiers. A friend of mine really doesn't like them. I don't mind them however because I'm used to much more relentless RNG.

It's just such an odd complaint for this game in particular. Not only is it a less random version of a dice roll - it's a dice roll you get to adjust with all sorts of neat little changes to your liking. The concept of "adding new faces" to your dice roll with all sorts of effects - or removing faces - is such a cool concept I wonder why no one's really done it before, especially in a cRPG. Perks is one of my favourite systems.

If you dislike it, however, all you'd have to do is remove the entire deck and just add +0 to everything. Seems boring to me though.

Bear in mind the Frosthaven implementations that they'll add in the next patch will all be optional.

The new "permanent enhancements" house rule is actually the base rule in the boardgame. Isaac said they were permanent only because the practicality of stickers on cards forced him to make them permanent, so the digital version uses his original vision. They're only adding the permanent enhancements back in because a lot of people complained.

From my experience in digital campaign I barely got to enchant anything before the character retired. The >300 gold enchantments seem insane to burn money on.

Not surprised people complained.

You don't "burn" money since you can get it all back, essentially respeccing it. However it is decidedly a late game thing after the changes. I think the change could have been good because the permanent enhancements kind of threw progression systems out of whack, but I do think they're way too expensive as temporary adjustments. It seems a bit odd that they removed the permanency but kept the price so steep.

 

[Red Hexapus]

Bear in mind the Frosthaven implementations that they'll add in the next patch will all be optional.

The new "permanent enhancements" house rule is actually the base rule in the boardgame. Isaac said they were permanent only because the practicality of stickers on cards forced him to make them permanent, so the digital version uses his original vision. They're only adding the permanent enhancements back in because a lot of people complained.

From my experience in digital campaign I barely got to enchant anything before the character retired. The >300 gold enchantments seem insane to burn money on.

Not surprised people complained.

I was quite surprised by that decision too, especially knowing how expensive the enhancements are (even more for high level cards). From what I recall, a typical strategy on retirement was to sell all equipment (it is returned to the store anyways) and put the best enhancements on cards. To tell the truth I never really liked this system in the board game it the first place and I think it should have been scrapped.

 

[Parabalus]

You don't "burn" money since you can get it all back, essentially respeccing it. However it is decidedly a late game thing after the changes. I think the change could have been good because the permanent enhancements kind of threw progression systems out of whack, but I do think they're way too expensive as temporary adjustments. It seems a bit odd that they removed the permanency but kept the price so steep.

Well the only real progression left is donating (which has a low max) and the prosperity(+ unlocks) on retirement, everything else gets wiped when the character buggers off.

Basically the sole way to play with some of the more expensive enchantments is to get a char who's retirement you can delay, but that's also boring.

I wonder how much they cut the cost, that also makes sense.

 

[Grunker]

Interesting. They're rebalancing Enhancement costs if you choose to stick with the new version:



Parabalus