Deus Ex GMDX: Deus Ex Advancement Mod v9 Released!

[RoSoDude]

Is anyone working on the shitty car models? It's always been glaringly dumb to me that every car in the game is crushed aside from the trucks. Some Blade Runner-inspired (but you know, still grounded) car models would be fantastic, if not a major priority to you.

 

[Ash]

It's not dumb. Deus Ex had exclusively wrecked cars for interaction consistency. If there are working cars then the player expects to be able to interact with them. Drive them, most notably. If they're all wrecked the player doesn't have any such expectations, and no reminders that it is just a game. And of course it's a dystopian world so players don't take much issue with them all being wrecked either. Sure there were some exceptions though, like the police vans in the HK tunnel. This same design can be seen in Fallout (except 2), actually.
However, the wrecked car models do need a high poly high res update, as HDTP did not update them. Paging KodexKommieKomrade

 

[Ivan]

we still on track for a December release?

 

[Ash]

Depends. If artists offer their services there will likely be delays in the name of incline. I also need someone to write an installer that is a couple-clicks-and-done type job on the user's end.

 

[Jaedar]

Depends. If artists offer their services there will likely be delays in the name of incline. I also need someone to write an installer that is a couple-clicks-and-done type job on the user's end.

Aren't there a bunch of free installers you can use?

 

[Ash]

I am not capable of customizing any stock installer to suit Deus Ex/GMDX's needs. Or rather I am, but it would take much learning which is not good when I have a project of this scale to manage on my lonesome as it is. Marketing, localization, programming, level design, testing, design, artist guidance...too much on my plate. It gets hectic around release.

 

[RoSoDude]

It's not dumb. Deus Ex had exclusively wrecked cars for interaction consistency. If there are working cars then the player expects to be able to interact with them. Drive them, most notably. If they're all wrecked the player doesn't have any such expectations, and no reminders that it is just a game. And of course it's a dystopian world so players don't take much issue with them all being wrecked either. Sure there were some exceptions though, like the police vans in the HK tunnel. This same design can be seen in Fallout (except 2), actually.
However, the wrecked car models do need a high poly high res update, as HDTP did not update them. Paging KodexKommieKomrade

Yeah, mostly it's because they look like crap. When I say dumb it's because the models look really silly.

 

[Dev_Anj]

I would just advise your modeler to avoid making the weapons too slick. The clunkiness of some of the weapon models was intentional, I think it highlighted just how bad the world was doing that it couldn't afford fancy gun designs, and it also made violence come across as more of a gruesome, inelegant solution to problems rather than something you could revel in, which was part of the point of Deus Ex offering non lethal solutions to the player and encouraging them so much in the first parts of the story.

 

[Ash]

and it also made violence come across as more of a gruesome, inelegant solution to problems rather than something you could revel in, which was part of the point of Deus Ex offering non lethal solutions to the player and encouraging them so much in the first parts of the story.

I highly doubt this was Ion Storm's intention, to discourage lethal through the visual design of weapons. Where do you come up with this stuff? Deus Ex didn't judge. Only Paul did to stress anything other than combat was even an option to begin with, as this was alien stuff back in the day. Combat, stealth and non-lethal are all meant to be wholly viable playstyles. And why wouldn't they be? Combat vs non-lethal Stealth in particular are very different experiences with tons of content unique to them, like NPC reactions and plasma rifles vs prods.

 

[Dev_Anj]

I highly doubt this was Ion Storm's intention, to discourage lethal through the visual design of weapons.

Well, if they wanted slick weapons they would have just made them so, wouldn't they? They were very much capable of making slick looking weapons, like your example of the plasma rifle proves.

Only Paul did to stress anything other than combat was even an option to begin with, as this was alien stuff back in the day.

A lot of people at UNATCO stressed this too, like Sam Carter for instance. And you were actually penalized for just blindly shooting stuff up; eg. being the subway station rigged with TNT or the hostage situation in the Ton.

And even in the late game, you have stuff like this:

https://youtu.be/Rsz32i2TIkg?list=PL8B3C5852853469DF&t=135

Moments like this are there to remind you that the MJ12 guards, as evil as they may seem, are just human.

So yes, there's a lot of evidence to show that Ion Storm wanted to discourage full on combat. But they decided to do it subtly rather than overtly since well, shooting things in an FPS styled game is the default option, and as such many people would complain if combat was not as viable. Hell, they complain a lot about the combat being tough at low weapon skill levels anyway.

 

[Ash]

font size change due to troll script.

[QUOTE="Ash, post: 4797070, member: 20949]
Well, if they wanted slick weapons they would have just made them so, wouldn't they? They were very much capable of making slick looking weapons, like your example of the plasma rifle proves.

if they were capable of making sleek weapons, and did so with the GEP and plasma, doesn't that question answer itself? By your logic, the gep and plasma wouldn't have been sleek as those are lethal weapons. The non-lethal weapons would have been sleek, hi-tech, clean and attractive, while the lethal would have been clunky and whatnot.

So yes, there's a lot of evidence to show that Ion Storm wanted to discourage full on combat.

>Makes complex playstyle with lots of tools, NPC reactions, build options and general systems exclusive to it.
>discourages the player from ever experiencing it

I don't think actively discouraging it was the intention, just making the player think twice about it and make the experience feel consequential. Especially in the age of the pureblood shooter being king.

Deus Ex didn't directly judge the player for their chosen playstyle, it didn't encourage any specific behaviors through systems or anything, yet it still wanted to be real. To have human-like NPCs. To have characters with depth. To show the player that non-lethal was even an option to begin with, and so on. And that's what those dialogues represent. And I certainly don't think they wanted to do any of that by making the weapons look and feel "clunky".

It's a role-playing game, it's not meant to shoehorn the player.

 

[Excidium II]

Yeah, but remember we're police.

 

[Ash]

The very first two characters you meet in fact back up everything I've just said:

Paul:

-Paul gives you weapon options. Lethal and non-lethal.
-He mentions non-lethal and to "stick with the prod", primarily to explain to the player such a thing is even an option. Pauls character revolves around that rather notably.

Kaplan:

-Kaplan gives you ammo options, lethal and non-lethal.
-The player gets a dialogue option "clean the place out" and "we're police after all", aka, pick your role to play: lethal or non.
-Kaplan himself is the opposite character of Paul, his opinions side with lethal players: "ask me I think we should wax them all", or whatever it is he says.

It's a damn role-playing game and doesn't shoehorn the player.

 

[Dev_Anj]

if they were capable of making sleek weapons, and did so with the GEP and plasma, doesn't that question answer itself?

Actually, no. You're ignoring some important factors here and simplifying it to one component.

The GEP Gun and plasma rifle are indeed lethal weapons. However, their context in the world must also be considered. The GEP gun is first and foremost, a rocket launcher. Rocket launchers are usually aimed at robots, not at people. This is further illustrated through how Paul mentions that the GEP gun might be useful because there's a security bot at the statue entrance, and how your max ammo count is never high enough to use it regularly on human enemies unless they clump up together. It's also actually rather clumsy to use, especially at lower skill levels. Sure, you can make the missiles home in from afar, but the loading time for each rocket takes long and it tends to miss anything faster than a small security bot. If you're going to bring up the WP rockets, remember that those tended to burn you most of the time you attempt to use them, so they weren't exactly elegant.

The plasma rifle is referred to many times as an experimental weapon, and so it would only make sense that the design would be more slick and futuristic than other weapons, to make it look like this grand new invention in the field of weaponry. If you do actually look at it within context though, you'll see that it tends to be as clunky as the GEP gun too, it fires slowly, the shots do splash damage that hit you at close range and they never hurt enemies for much in the base game(though the last one could be attributed to a coding mistake and thus not intentional).

So they don't refute my point.

Discouraging the player from a complex system after spending time to build it is the mark of an experienced designer... or of overtly ambitious people. You'll see that there are many games under the "immersive sim" label where complex systems are built but are made optional.

Your points about role playing games not being about shoe horning players is exactly why Ion Storm resorted to subtle tactics rather than make it explicitly discouraged. They knew people would complain if the lethal options were actively discouraged, so they didn't do that.

 

[Turtle-Zone 3000]

Just wondering did Ion Storm use UnrealED 1 for the entirety of development? Jesus christ its hell to map with.
Was experimenting with mapping and new environment textures.

Thing I stumbled across a while back that i've put to memory and I feel somewhat more comfortable mapping.

These will work in all UE1-Engine based games and maps, except Undying whose enviroments and actors have bigger scaling!

Roomtype Brush Sizes (Height):

64 = Standard Duck Shaft for Actors
80 = Special Duck Shaft (required in Deus Ex Multiplayer only!)
112 = Realistic Door (Deus Ex), rest 16 units can be used for either door frame above or door steps below (112+16=128)
128 = Standard Room, Corridor and Door
160 = Realistic Room/Corridor (e.g. Hotel, see 'Ton Hotel map in Deus Ex)
256 = Big Room with high Ceiling and stuff above (e.g. Horizontal Beams, Pipes, Hanging Lamps, Ventilators)
512 = Two-story Building or Big Warehouse
1024 = Big Hangar for Aircraft
1664 = Huge Hangar for Boeing 747 (see Hangar 747 at Lebedev Airfield in Deus Ex)

Brush/Texture Sizes (Width x Height, Scaling Factor 1, Standard Resolution):

64 x 64 = Standard Shaft (cubic)
56 x 112 = Realistic Door (Deus Ex), use 64x128 texture size to fit in, rest 8x16 units for door frame.
64 x 128 = Standard Door
128 x 128 = Standard Wall (cubic)
128 x 160 = Realistic Wall, use 128x256 texture size to fit in.
256 x 128 = Long Wall (rectangle)
256 x 256 = Big Wall (cubic)
512 x 512 = Building Wall (cubic)

If you use high resolution textures (e.g. 1024x1024) or S3TC (2048x2048) then you have to double or quadruple the Width x Height numbers and use scaling factor 0.5 or 0.25 in UnrealEd Surface Properties.

 

[Ash]

UnrealEd 1, yes. It's old but gold

 

[Ash]

if they were capable of making sleek weapons, and did so with the GEP and plasma, doesn't that question answer itself?

Actually, no. You're ignoring some important factors here and simplifying it to one component.

The GEP Gun and plasma rifle are indeed lethal weapons. However, their context in the world must also be considered. The GEP gun is first and foremost, a rocket launcher. Rocket launchers are usually aimed at robots, not at people. This is further illustrated through how Paul mentions that the GEP gun might be useful because there's a security bot at the statue entrance, and how your max ammo count is never high enough to use it regularly on human enemies unless they clump up together. It's also actually rather clumsy to use, especially at lower skill levels. Sure, you can make the missiles home in from afar, but the loading time for each rocket takes long and it tends to miss anything faster than a small security bot. If you're going to bring up the WP rockets, remember that those tended to burn you most of the time you attempt to use them, so they weren't exactly elegant.

The plasma rifle is referred to many times as an experimental weapon, and so it would only make sense that the design would be more slick and futuristic than other weapons, to make it look like this grand new invention in the field of weaponry. If you do actually look at it within context though, you'll see that it tends to be as clunky as the GEP gun too, it fires slowly, the shots do splash damage that hit you at close range and they never hurt enemies for much in the base game(though the last one could be attributed to a coding mistake and thus not intentional).

So they don't refute my point.

Discouraging the player from a complex system after spending time to build it is the mark of an experienced designer... or of overtly ambitious people. You'll see that there are many games under the "immersive sim" label where complex systems are built but are made optional.

Your points about role playing games not being about shoe horning players is exactly why Ion Storm resorted to subtle tactics rather than make it explicitly discouraged. They knew people would complain if the lethal options were actively discouraged, so they didn't do that.

You do ramble some nonsense.

One quick link will refute your claims: http://www.pcgamer.com/spector-created-deus-ex-out-of-thief-frustrations/

Spector created Deus Ex out of Thief frustrations

Spector said that he was "so frustrated by Thief" and the way it forced players into combat, that it motivated him to produce a game where both combat and stealth were workable options to solve a situation. "Deus Ex exists today because I said, 'I'm going to show these guys that I can make a game where you can sneak and fight and make it work'" he said.

Meaning no shoehorning the player. By encouraging the player go non-lethal to any extent they would have to employ stealth, as there is no combat non-lethal options vanilla. There is in GMDX though, but they're not consistently reliable like the prod/baton combo is by design.

 

[Dev_Anj]

Umm, that link proves nothing. Read it carefully:

Spector said that he was "so frustrated by Thief" and the way it forced players into combat

it motivated him to produce a game where both combat and stealth were workable options to solve a situation.

Notice how he said he was frustated with how the first Thief game forced combat. Not stealth, not non lethal, but combat. That itself shows that he has an innate preference for stealth options perhaps.

I quoted that other line because I foresaw you would try to use it to refute my statement, but note that it's written directly after the former. That means it's Spector basically saying "Well, I didn't like Thief forcing combat on me, so I'll try making a game where both combat and stealth are viable." It's not unheard of for famous directors, producers, and artists to often misdirect people in interviews anyway, especially if the methods used to encourage one method over the other are subtle within the context of the media talked about.

Also, way to call a big post covering stuff like the GEP gun and the plasma rifle's design in comparison with the rest of Deus Ex's weaponry "nonsense" without trying to address any of the points I made.

 

[Ash]

There is very subtle encouragement, simply because it was a thing that had never been done in games up until that point, yet Paul's nagging is about as far as it goes and in pretty much every other aspect of design it is obvious the developers want you to make your own damn mind up/just play what you prefer as a player, and then come back for another playthrough and do it again with a different playstyle, or the same again, whatever the game allows. That's a big thing that makes RPGs, RPGs.

Notice how he said he was frustated with how the first Thief game forced combat.

I don't think the distinction matters. The problem was that it forced anything instead of taking what he saw as the the next step and providing freedom. He clearly didn't have a problem with combat in System Shock and Underworld, and now he's working on System Shock 3, the series having never really supported stealth, sort of. In fact, Deus Ex and Invisible War are the only games he has worked on that properly supported stealth (aside from a short stint on Thief from what I understand), and it's entirely optional in both.

That itself shows that he has an innate preference for stealth options perhaps.

Maybe, yet the mark of a good RPG designer is putting aside those preferences and making all playstyles viable, and not shoehorning the player to take certain builds, dialogue options, whatever.

You're speculating based on shots in the dark anyway. I could also come up with similar blind pot shots, like combat has far more tools created for it, plenty weapons, while non-lethal has very little. Each lethal weapon has vast weapon customization options, while the mini-crossbow is the only non-lethal option that can be modified. That could show an innate preference for lethal stealth or combat. Or, the game drops in reactivity to non-lethal actions considerably by Hong Kong and beyond, that could show an innate lack of fucks given for non-lethal (this one may actually be accurate as there is a very notable lack of reactions to it after new york, yet it's still speculation).

As for your "nonsense", you were making points like "it [gep gun] is actually rather clumsy to use", ignoring that absolutely all weapons are clumsy to the same extent (if not more because the gep had lock-on) until they are modified and/or you have the appropriate skills. You pointed out the plasma rifle has AoE/splash damage, which is a point in the weapons favor. AoE is more useful than self-harming in the hands of a good player.

 

[KlauZ]

Is there a fool-proof way to get through HK mj12 hangar? Luckily i had one last LAM to open a locker, but what if i didnt?

 

[Turtle-Zone 3000]

Is there a fool-proof way to get through HK mj12 hangar? Luckily i had one last LAM to open a locker, but what if i didnt?

Isnt there the sword?

 

[KlauZ]

Nano? Not yet, it's a first HK level.

 

[Turtle-Zone 3000]

Nano? Not yet, it's a first HK level.

I remember using the regular one on the display board at the end to break the lockers.
In vanilla though.

 

[Latelistener]

There are three swords on this map, they're located in the container on the roof.
You can also loot a GEP gun from one of the MJ12 soldiers, although IIRC the locker DT is 10, so you can break it with almost any weapon.

 

[Jazz_]

Was Paul Denton nerfed in GDMX? I vaguely remember that he was a semi-God killing everything in his path in vanilla Deus Ex when UNATCO storms his apartment, now it takes just 1 of the agent in black to kill him.