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3 months and i replay both games every year since 2007.
The truth just is that Gothic combat isn't the intelligent rhythm based experience codex always is pretending it to be.
Just because it once was more complex than Morrowind combat (LOL) doesn't mean that it remains the be-all of Action-RPG combat in times of DS, Mount and Blade or Sekiro.
You've replayed a lot more recently than me so I won't argue too hard but saying it's just holding control and hitting W is a gross oversimplification and you know it
Fully agree with Panda here, Gothic has merely average combat. Its just janky animation cancelling where you learn which animation loop deals the highest damage and has the highest chance to stagger your opponent to death with your current weapon and training level. The majority of the combat is decided by clever pulling, kiting and positioning.
The combat however was never the main selling point, it just has to exist to give the roleplaying system a reason to exist. Your armor upgrade and your new sword would not feel as good if the combat was unfun.
Alright fine, you guys have convinced me to reorder my list
1) Mount and Blade
2) Risen
3) Dark Messiah of Might and Magic (maybe? been a while since I played this) If this one isn't as good as I remember replace it with Shadow Warrior 2 or something.
4) Dark Souls
5) Gothic 1&2
6) everything else (shit tier for Gothic)
but my original order remains the same in the context of what I'd like to see in a Gothic remake
This remake is such an abortion that, as rusty_shackleford as my witness, I would rather see Trump reelected than for them to defile the Gothic series zoomer-style.
You can also finish all DS games without blocking. And on DS3 you can dodge spam easily. I prefer the moving back and blocking than rolling from gothic. Makes more sense IMO
Fully agree with Panda here, Gothic has merely average combat. Its just janky animation cancelling where you learn which animation loop deals the highest damage and has the highest chance to stagger your opponent to death with your current weapon and training level. The majority of the combat is decided by clever pulling, kiting and positioning.
The combat however was never the main selling point, it just has to exist to give the roleplaying system a reason to exist. Your armor upgrade and your new sword would not feel as good if the combat was unfun.
In therms of a combat game, Gothic is AT BEST average however, Gothic combat is a masterpiece in one aspect. Immersion. Using a weapon like a anime protagonist and when someone teaches you how to proper use a weapon, using in a way that makes sense in Old Camp was so amazing. What other game had you changing stances/combat animation to fit your character knowledge according? That a pack of wolves is a threat to a unarmored unskilled peasant with no supernatural abilities?
- combat system may be totally different to the original, but one thing must be kept: feedback after leveling up. When I increase my single handed ability, the character should show how he's handling the weapon better - movement and speed - and deal more damage with it
- not a full screen inventory/character/map/whatever menu, I want a window that doesn't take me away from the game world
- movement with Q/E keys so I can eat and drink with my right hand and walk around the world at the same time
Depends. How many influencers can you get saying it's great?
Paraphrasing Wendt, the market is what you make of it.
The problem in the RPG space is that almost all companies: (a) either can't market to save their lives or (b) can't make fun games. One or the other. Sometimes both. Too often both. Almost never neither.
Only three studios are exceptions - those do well. But then it takes years for anything to be released. So...
People that said "yes" to this remake are not battle-hardened auti veterans like us. They see it with sweet summer eyes and end up supporting it with good intention, not realizing how corporate conversations work. Unless some genius/miracle/wizardry finds the fabled way to rally the common folk and explain to them that their "Yeah I wanna see new Gothic, but.." should be a firm, cold "No. Not like this.", this will continue to happen. Technically, we're cucked by naive plebs and it would be wrong to blame them, honestly. They were steam account owners, not auti forum dwellers. Most of them literally criticized the Remake heavily and in the end said "Yes" cause they're kind and optimistic, is what I'm seeing here happened. Infront of a shark corporation looking to earn money by making a copypasta of popular brands like that For Honor combat thingie.. Big companies are naive themselves, we all just witnessed how THQ came with a brilliant idea to attempt a colorful, politically correct Gothic game, lol.
Anyhow, this statement from THQ Barsa how they are acknowledging the negative feedback too gives me a bit of hope that they will strongly reconsider their approach to the remake, but I still have serious ptsd from Heroes 7
(HoMM7 developers came out with grand promises of fanbase interaction where "you, the player, gets to decide how we make this(lie)", with their ambiguous surveys - dangerously similar to the Gothic Remake one that we saw here - which were used later to proclaim how "the fans have spoken!" as they proceeded to butcher the franchise's 7th installment and ignore every single piece of feedback that wasn't shilling it. Needless to say, game is ded and official statement saying "we're ending the support for H7" came as the final nail in the coffin just a few months later, and it was buried forever)
Until this new "Remake of the Gothic Remake demo" comes out (they're late but I sincerely hope we'll see atleast another official response soon) I wouldn't worry too much about any of it right now. It is entirely up to them now.
Soooo, story time? My first contact with Gothic was - Gothic 3, sadly. I did like G3 overall, yet I said "sadly" because I played 2nd afterwards and realized the sea of difference both in style and substance. Then I played G1 ofc - and I'm in fact glad that this unintentional backwards journey gave me even greater understanding of the amazing potential this game series has.
Things like NPCs that give you actual explanation how to git gud when you ask them to train you in something, these are the flawless diamonds within Gothic. I saw it in G3 for the first time and was simply amazed. Then Gothic 2 showed me how character progression and world building are supposed to look like. And Gothic 1 punched me in the face, so naturally I fell inlove. I'd go as far as say that experiencing Gothic games made me change my view on RPGs almost completely. I'm really wondering for years why noone tried to copy some of the many brilliant aspects and ideas that this game introduced.. Also thank every god you can think of that Todd "16 times the detail" Howard didn't try to pasta some of it into TES.. Imagine how much power a little piece of immersion like that "Gothic NPC training" would give to TES..
Sho.. Should I edit this part out just in case, lads?
I'm really wondering for years why noone tried to copy some of the many brilliant aspects and ideas that this game introduced.. Also thank every god you can think of that Todd "16 times the detail" Howard didn't try to pasta some of it into TES.. Imagine how much power a little piece of immersion like that "Gothic NPC training" would give to TES..
TES actually did stealthily copy a lot of Gothic stuff after Gothic 1 shat all over Morrowind gameplay-wise. It's just being Bethesda, they fucked all of that copying up with their incompetence/pandering to lowest common denominator. In Oblivion, their next game, they copied the block from Gothic, but while in Gothic it was timed and thereby skill-based, in Oblivion you could just hold up Block indefinitely, ruining the whole point of it. They also copied over NPC schedules, but whereas Gothic ones were highly detailed and intimate, in Oblivion, NPCs just dumbly walked back and forth between their house and workplace, or paced around, outside of Radiant AI driven shit which was just rare and weird.
But in general, outside of indies, not too many people care for the simple reason of profit. Despite being some of the greatest games ever made, Gothics (and then Risens, ELEXs, etc), never made much money, so why should profit driven game development since 2005 or so look to them for inspiration?
I'm really wondering for years why noone tried to copy some of the many brilliant aspects and ideas that this game introduced.. Also thank every god you can think of that Todd "16 times the detail" Howard didn't try to pasta some of it into TES.. Imagine how much power a little piece of immersion like that "Gothic NPC training" would give to TES..
TES actually did stealthily copy a lot of Gothic stuff after Gothic 1 shat all over Morrowind gameplay-wise. It's just being Bethesda, they fucked all of that copying up with their incompetence/pandering to lowest common denominator. In Oblivion, their next game, they copied the block from Gothic, but while in Gothic it was timed and thereby skill-based, in Oblivion you could just hold up Block indefinitely, ruining the whole point of it. They also copied over NPC schedules, but whereas Gothic ones were highly detailed and intimate, in Oblivion, NPCs just dumbly walked back and forth between their house and workplace, or paced around, outside of Radiant AI driven shit which was just rare and weird.
But in general, outside of indies, not too many people care for the simple reason of profit. Despite being some of the greatest games ever made, Gothics (and then Risens, ELEXs, etc), never made much money, so why should profit driven game development since 2005 or so look to them for inspiration?
Copying block and NPC schedules? I can't see it as something unique to either of these games, idk. I can agree with the profit drive tho, makes absolute sense that they would not bother to even acknowledge that Gothic exists on the market, let alone inspect it XD
That's a bit of a stretch eh?
These mechanics should not be confined to gothic and i do not think they originated there even. To have a "block" in a video game with sword and board seems to me like one of the first things your slav.... I mean work experience student comes up with.
Is Piranha Bytes considered "indie"? Just curious. The fact that they're based in Europe would kind of indicate this. But they've been around for a long time, had a few critically-acclaimed "hits", etc. On the other hand, CDPR are raking in the dough but are still independent, I guess.
You guys don't remember those times. While Gothic was not the first game to have timed blocks (maybe) and NPC Schedules, it was the first 3D 1st/3rd person rpg to do so.
Elder Scrolls games were originally inspired by Ultima 7 (for the open world) and Ultima Underworld (for the perspective). And yet they did not bother to implement NPC schedules, present in U7, in Arena, Daggerfall, or Morrowind. Only after Gothic 1 had them, which at the time was really their only competitor in the 3D open world RPG segment, did they suddenly put them into Oblivion.
Same thing with blocks. In early 2000s, aRPG combat was very basic, just spamming the same attacks as in Morrowind or Arx Fatalis, or spamming directional attacks as in Daggerfall or Ultima Underworld. Then Gothic comes along with timed blocks, and suddenly Oblivion has blocks.
Is it possible that Oblivion borrowed those things from other games that had them? Sure, I don't have inside info on Bethesda's dev processes. But to me, given that Gothic was in their space, and really their only competitor at the time, it seems most likely that they appropriated those things from Piranha Bytes.
