Great job, Bioware!

[Vault Dweller]

Whatever, he's just another "the rules applies to you, but not to me 'cuz I'm special" parasite. Fuck him. Makes me wish I'd never bought a Bioware game, but alas, I believe people should be able to enjoy the fruits of honest labour & determined frauds like Dgaider can of course take advantage of that.

Determined frauds? He's a developer. An imbecile would understand that Dave is no more responsible for the DRM decision than you or me. It should also be clear that he is not in position to comment on it. So, what's all that fuss is about?

devs are just lazy fucks. look at the short shit games they release - they work less, considerably less. but they are richer with every year. shouldn't piracy make it the other way?

What is it, a stupid day at the Codex? Who gets richer, morons? Whose houses and yachts VO posted? Howard and Riccitiello? What the fuck did they develop? You want to talk about developers? Let's talk about Troika, Origin, Looking Glass, Sir-Tech. Let's look at pictures of their houses.

 

[MetalCraze]

devs are just lazy fucks. look at the short shit games they release - they work less, considerably less. but they are richer with every year

I agree completely here. But, as I always say, this is down to the idiots buying the crap, not the developers. If I could earn a 100 dollars for doing some work, but I could also earn 100 dollars for doing half the work, what am I going to choose?

The devs will churn out the shit if the masses are willing to consume it.

which means that there are enough masses consuming it that Bioware is now able to produce 4 titles at the same time while having 2 dev studios during a huge piracy, while they weren't able to do this 5 years ago when piracy was not so huge according to them.
in that case I completely don't understand how is piracy hurting them if only thing they are doing is prospering and what's the point of installing DRM that doesn't work. other than greed. or probably as VO southpark'ed it - they don't want to have "semi-luxurious existence"

I think Gaider just couldn't be bothered reading your stupid post. Practically all your posts are stupid so he properly skips you entirely.

so how my post was stupid? I asked him what is Bio gonna do with DRM and what is his stance on the thing that DRM fucked up not the right people. he answered me with "fuck you".
of course your emo fanboy mind doesn't let you to see anything but "criticising bioware is bad"

 

[Xi]

From where i am standing as long as it screws over one paying customer they have gone way too far.

That's just stupid because it will always happen as a rule of probabilities. Before DRM people complained that their spyware/virus infested computers without driver updates running Norton wouldn't run the game properly. Where does one draw the line? It seems like you would prefer all software creation to stop because a few people, possibly yourself, have gotten screwed because you had a negative experience once. How pathetic?

My point stands I believe, that the vast majority of buyers will not experience much, if any, difficulty with online activation DRM.

DRM that screws even one paying customers is always bad, period. If you pay for it you should have to just put in the player, install the sucker, and play away. If there is more than that involved, it is wrong - And if you must go looking for pirates as to be able to play the damn thing you just bought, it is a new and entire world of wrong.

And we have already proven pirates are good and DRM is evil in the second page. :wink:

Why don't you apply your same very narrow thinking in terms of pirates harming the industry? If piracy does in fact cause harm, then it is "always bad." Is that so unreasonable?

 

[Jedi_Learner]

I asked him what is Bio gonna do with DRM and what is his stance on the thing that DRM fucked up not the right people.

What, do you expect him to come out and say, "I think this copyright protection is awful!" You really need to have a think why Gaider hasn't shared his opinion.

 

[Zinc]

devs are just lazy fucks. look at the short shit games they release - they work less, considerably less. but they are richer with every year

I agree completely here. But, as I always say, this is down to the idiots buying the crap, not the developers. If I could earn a 100 dollars for doing some work, but I could also earn 100 dollars for doing half the work, what am I going to choose?

The devs will churn out the shit if the masses are willing to consume it.

which means that there are enough masses consuming it that Bioware is now able to produce 4 titles at the same time while having 2 dev studios during a huge piracy, while they weren't able to do this 5 years ago when piracy was not so huge according to them.
in that case I completely don't understand how is piracy hurting them if only thing they are doing is prospering and what's the point of installing DRM that doesn't work. other than greed. or probably as VO southpark'ed it - they don't want to have "semi-luxurious existence"
"

Yeah, but then why should some people pay and others not? Should the fools actually opening their wallets really pay for the people who can't be bothered to fork out the cash to play the game aswell? This has nothing to do with the devs, again this is just plain unfair on the guy who pays for the game.

 

[MetalCraze]

devs are just lazy fucks. look at the short shit games they release - they work less, considerably less. but they are richer with every year. shouldn't piracy make it the other way?

What is it, a stupid day at the Codex? Who gets richer, morons? Whose houses and yachts VO posted? Howard and Riccitiello? What the fuck did they develop? You want to talk about developers? Let's talk about Troika, Origin, Looking Glass, Sir-Tech. Let's look at pictures of their houses.

so Troika closed doors because of piracy?
Origin?
Looking Glass?
Sir-Tech?
all those guys suffered because of the greedy big guys. what piracy has to do with this? and why didn't you put Westwood there? probably because Westwood always was successful as fuck?
besides almost all of them are employed and most of them - still at EA/Interplay/etc. what was your point again?
VD really you're totally missed what you were targeting here.

 

[pkt-zer0]

That's just stupid because it will always happen as a rule of probabilities. Before DRM people complained that their spyware/virus infested computers without driver updates running Norton wouldn't run the game properly. Where does one draw the line? It seems like you would prefer all software creation to stop because a few people, possibly yourself, have gotten screwed because you had a negative experience once. How pathetic?

Yeah, it's pathetic to think that stuff that only screws out with the paying customers shouldn't be added to a game. It's alright as long as you're not screwing out with a lot of them, eh?

 

[Xi]

Yeah, it's pathetic to think that stuff that only screws out with the paying customers shouldn't be added to a game. It's alright as long as you're not screwing out with a lot of them, eh?

Even without DRM, people still get screwed. It's a fact of life, get over it. Point in case, very few people get screwed. Stop whining.

 

[Vault Dweller]

devs are just lazy fucks. look at the short shit games they release - they work less, considerably less. but they are richer with every year. shouldn't piracy make it the other way?

What is it, a stupid day at the Codex? Who gets richer, morons? Whose houses and yachts VO posted? Howard and Riccitiello? What the fuck did they develop? You want to talk about developers? Let's talk about Troika, Origin, Looking Glass, Sir-Tech. Let's look at pictures of their houses.

so Troika closed doors because of piracy?

If Arcanum wasn't pirated like there is no tomorrow, it would have sold much, much better and Troika's fate would have been different. Arcanum was their flagship title, a foundation of the company. They were dead (at the complete mercy of publishers) the moment the flagship went down.

all those guys suffered because of the greedy big guys. what piracy has to do with this? and why didn't you put Westwood there? probably because Westwood always was successful as fuck?

I forgot about Westwood. My point was not about piracy but about developers if you read to what I replied - "devs are just lazy fucks. look at the short shit games they release - they work less, considerably less. but they are richer with every year."

Piracy doesn't hurt the top guys. It hurts the guys who actually make games.

 

[OSK]

Well this topic has gone to hell.

As soon as a dev posts, you know exactly which people are going to jump into the topic and spam stupid shit.

 

[The Rambling Sage]

It seems like you would prefer all software creation to stop because a few people, possibly yourself, have gotten screwed because you had a negative experience once. How pathetic?

I am a pirate, so i never had a problem with DRM. Originally i was so by context, because games weren't readily available here. Later, by ideology - As you maybe remember. Now, again by ideology. What games i want to support i buy afterwards and never actually open, since i have my nice Torrented copies to play.

And it seems you are puting the industry and software creation above the individuals who are being screwed. Second postulate, anyone? It is somewhat dissapointing to see you as an hypocrite after how much i loved our discussions on the topic.

People comes first. If you are screwing people you are being immoral, and thus in error, whatever your motivations are. They are screwing people - It does not matter if they are screwing one or one thousand. They are at fault.

Why don't you apply your same very narrow thinking in terms of pirates harming the industry? If piracy does in fact cause harm, then it is "always bad." Is that so unreasonable?

The industry? The industry is capitalistic to begin with. Capitalism, and thus the industry that thrives on it, by means of the very same Categorical Imperative you always champion (and to wich you converted me to), is anathema. So why should we care about an immoral institution?

Meanwhile the pirates harm the industry but are in accordance to that very ideal you seem to champion. Where do you stand, Xi? Do you side with Law or with Moral, in this one?

 

[cardtrick]

This is a disgustingly stupid thread.

Piracy is wrong.

DRM that prevents customers (e.g., me) from playing the game they purchased is wrong.

But didn't your mothers ever teach you that two wrongs don't make a right? Seriously, where the hell were you guys when cliche school was in session?

Oppressive DRM doesn't justify piracy; and piracy doesn't justify using oppressive DRM.

I won't be purchasing any more products published by EA after my experience with Mass Effect (which is a real shame, because I actually like Mass Effect quite a lot and would like to play the sequels). But I certainly won't pirate them, either (with the possible exception of downloading a crack for this game which I have already paid for). I will be writing a letter to EA saying exactly that. Maybe if enough people do the same, they'll realize that all they're accomplishing is driving away paying customers.

 

[MetalCraze]

Yeah, but then why should some people pay and others not? Should the fools actually opening their wallets really pay for the people who can't be bothered to fork out the cash to play the game aswell? This has nothing to do with the devs, again this is just plain unfair on the guy who pays for the game.

well first of all fools pay only for themselves. second - the guys who get games other ways would not buy them for full price (or any) otherwise. for various reasons. from bad excuses to simple "why should I buy it if I can borrow it from a friend" which is a norm of the healthy society. but that already was discussed in this thread to death so no need to go over this again. I'm more interested in understanding how exactly piracy hurts devs. especially those working at EA which only grows. shit - piracy really hurts - probably that's why EA pays $2 bln for Take Two. some small money there.

What, do you expect him to come out and say, "I think this copyright protection is awful!" You really need to have a think why Gaider hasn't shared his opinion.

I can think only of two options. either he is just stupid or simply afraid that bosses will bitch-slap one of their best lead designers which is very doubtful. which will also mean he is stupid - as Bioware must've apologized and try to fix the situation instead of baaaawwww you are all baaad. it took crackers just two days to "fix" the DRM problems. what's the problem of Bioware? basically crackers help people to play their games they would've not played otherwise due to anti-customer protection. and this is VERY ironic.

 

[Lumpy]

I own a rather large game collection (including several Bioware titles), larger than most people's in fact. I am also an avid pirate. If I would actually want to pay for every single book, game, movie, tv show, or music I have read, played, watched, or listened to, then I'm afraid I would need a few mortgages on a house I don't own. The same would go for a lot, if not most people. You and your ilk would deny such (that is, I posit, most) people these experiences, based on nothing but your own personal greed.

Imagine that, eh? He would deny us our right to take what we want without paying! The nerve! Next step - stores! I bet you like good computers, expensive booz, and sport cars. Yet some greedy fat cats would deny you all that stuff simply because you can't afford it. HOW IS THAT FAIR I SAY?!! DOWN WITH THE GOVERNMENT! FREE SHIT TO PEOPLE!!!

If stores were somehow able to make unlimited copies of any item, at no cost, yeah, that would be pretty much true.
How is spending the total amount you can afford on games, and then pirating some more, in any way unreasonable?

What is it, a stupid day at the Codex? Who gets richer, morons? Whose houses and yachts VO posted? Howard and Riccitiello? What the fuck did they develop? You want to talk about developers? Let's talk about Troika, Origin, Looking Glass, Sir-Tech. Let's look at pictures of their houses.

I'm pretty sure those weren't any developers' houses - the whole VO post was a South Park reference.

 

[Jedi_Learner]

I can think only of two options. either he is just stupid...

How does it make him stupid if he doesn't want to share his opinion?

 

[Vault Dweller]

If stores were somehow able to make unlimited copies of any item, at no cost, yeah, that would be pretty much true.

New definition of theft? It's not theft if it's unlimited?

How is spending the total amount you can afford on games, and then pirating some more, in any way unreasonable?

An excellent question. Let me reply with another question. How is spending the total amount you can afford on food, and then stealing some more, in any way unreasonable?

 

[Zinc]

Yeah, but then why should some people pay and others not? Should the fools actually opening their wallets really pay for the people who can't be bothered to fork out the cash to play the game aswell? This has nothing to do with the devs, again this is just plain unfair on the guy who pays for the game.

well first of all fools pay only for themselves. second - the guys who get games other ways would not buy them for full price (or any) otherwise. for various reasons. from bad excuses to simple "why should I buy it if I can borrow it from a friend" which is a norm of the healthy society.

The point is that if there weren't any fools buying the game, then the game would not be made in the first place. No matter which way you twist it, the pirates are leeching off of the people paying for the games.

You don't eat a burger and then decide whether or not you are going to pay for it, based on whether you "liked" it or not. You eat it first, and then if there is something terribly wrong with it, you try to get a refund or an exchange. If you just plain dislike it, you suck it up and don't buy the burger again. Civilization would collapse if it were based on the idea of "I will decide whether I'm going to pay for it, after I try it." This is why I don't like pirates.

edit: Regarding the 10-day rule, to stop confusion. I feel that someone who has already purchased the game isn't very likely to return it, unless it's really bad. I know I only ever used it when I thought a game was terrible/very short. I think pirates who say they "will buy a game if they like it" are bullshitting most of the time anyway. If you already have a game in your posession, there isn't much incentive to go out and buy it, no matter how much you like it.

 

[Lumpy]

How is spending the total amount you can afford on games, and then pirating some more, in any way unreasonable?

An excellent question. Let me reply with another question. How is spending the total amount you can afford on food, and then stealing some more, in any way unreasonable?

Because you're taking away someone else's food. The targeted grocery will lose money because of your theft. On the other hand, if you've spent all you were willing to on games, your piracy doesn't affect the developers.

 

[pkt-zer0]

If stores were somehow able to make unlimited copies of any item, at no cost, yeah, that would be pretty much true.

New definition of theft? It's not theft if it's unlimited?

You're stealing my oxygen, stop breathing.

 

[racofer]

The conclusion is that whoever wants to pirate will continue to do so regardless of how someone might consider it illegal/immoral or not and will enjoy a better version of the game since he/she will not have to deal with intrusive DRM and those that pay for it will have to face the consequences of their choice.

I don't buy any game with intrusive copy protections such as this. Securom for example restricts me from using software such as Daemon tools, which I use to mount legitimate images of stuff I own claiming it's an illegal software. This is where the line is crossed in my book, because it's no business other than mine to determine what the fuck I use on my computer, and now because a game dev with an electric dildo shoved up his ass thinks some software is right or not to run on MY COMPUTER then just fuck them.

 

[MetalCraze]

If Arcanum wasn't pirated like there is no tomorrow, it would have sold much, much better and Troika's fate would have been different. Arcanum was their flagship title, a foundation of the company. They were dead (at the complete mercy of publishers) the moment the flagship went down.

VD you perfectly know that Arcanum didn't sell and resulted in game-returns because it was too buggy. Fallout also was pirated like there was no tomorrow. yet it succeeded.
the same thing was with VtmB. bugs. majority of people can't stand them. and this is sad truth - not piracy.

I forgot about Westwood. My point was not about piracy but about developers if you read to what I replied - "devs are just lazy fucks. look at the short shit games they release - they work less, considerably less. but they are richer with every year."

Piracy doesn't hurt the top guys. It hurts the guys who actually make games.

(yet only big guys decide on DRMs and how the game will be designed)
yes but isn't the top guys are the ones who pay money to the lesser guys? can't they just not buy their yacht this month and pay their "lower" devs instead? as I've wrote - EA pays $2 bln for Take Two. yet EA are the ones that cry about the piracy the most right now. if piracy hurts that much - where did they take that money?

the point is - piracy was here always. it always was a problem without a solution. and always will. yet now it became a popular excuse for:
- making shit games
- making 10-20 hrs long games
- closing prospering and talented dev studios just to exchange them for something that will bring easy money
- desire to work less
nothing of this happens because of a piracy.
the nice example is IronLore. what did they produce? a mediocre diablo-clone with a very moderate success? a buggy and shitty-designed addon to WH40K? they've closed their doors and blamed it all on piracy - not on their shitty games nobody wanted to buy.
this is just one example of how piracy is used as an excuse.

 

[Xi]

And it seems you are puting the industry and software creation above the individuals who are being screwed. Second postulate, anyone? It is somewhat dissapointing to see you as an hypocrite after how much i loved our discussions on the topic.

As VD pointed out, you are screwing over the hard working developer. I am hardly a hypocrite, and in fact you are because what you do does hurt people. The premise of your argument is centered around this idea of not hurting people, while mine is not. So it hardly hurts my argument, rather it shows the weakness of yours. In fact, I would consider a lost job, that once supported a family, a far more harmful thing than DRM, but this thread is full of relativism, so it must be ok because a large mass of people(pirates) think it's ok.

I merely apply an ethical idea to piracy and work from there. It covers all of these "shades of grey" people continue to talk about in justification of their actions. You know this from our previous thread I think. I generally try to tackle it from a position of understanding, but some people are dense and it takes more effort than is usually worth.

 

[Drog Black Tooth]

devs are just lazy fucks. look at the short shit games they release - they work less, considerably less. but they are richer with every year. shouldn't piracy make it the other way?

What is it, a stupid day at the Codex? Who gets richer, morons? Whose houses and yachts VO posted? Howard and Riccitiello? What the fuck did they develop? You want to talk about developers? Let's talk about Troika, Origin, Looking Glass, Sir-Tech. Let's look at pictures of their houses.

so Troika closed doors because of piracy?

If Arcanum wasn't pirated like there is no tomorrow, it would have sold much, much better and Troika's fate would have been different. Arcanum was their flagship title, a foundation of the company. They were dead (at the complete mercy of publishers) the moment the flagship went down.

In case anyone forgot.

Heh....Saint Proverbius also asked me if I thought the sales (or lack thereof) on Arcanum, and to some extent Fallout, were affected by piracy. I would have to say definitely, especially in the case of Arcanum.

I think the worst day in the whole development cycle of Arcanum was when they told us they were holding the release because the translations weren't finished. And this was after months of pressuring us to make sure we'd ship on time or it would be "the end of the world". Oh, and they'd also already sent out the press copies. So it was a no brainer that it would be pirated, but no amount of screaming on my part could change Sierra's decision to hold it.

Such is the pain of game development, I suppose.

 

[Disconnected]

I understand now. But I can't help but feel that if there were no pirates to begin with, then there would never have been any need for something like DRM.

DRM & piracy has nothing to do with each other. DRM is an attempt at denying you ownership. Bioware isn't in the business of selling games, they're a rental service. The two only points of the system is to make it impossible to buy commercial software, games or otherwise, and to deny consumers control over what "their" software do. It's complete and utter bullshit & it is a decidedly anti-capitalist ideal.

Also, the prices of games would most likely be lower.

Doubtful. When the console invasion seriously hit Europe, prices on PC games didn't go up. They were, in fact, entirely unaffected. And that's despite PC sales taking an ongoing nosedive ever since the Playstation.

That's not to say you're wrong. There's no real evidence either way, but the absence of evidence of the number of sales affecting the price, speaks volumes.

It's like shops putting up the prices of their products to make up the money lost due to theft.

Can't say I've ever heard of a shop that actually did that. Limiting the number of high-risk customers in the shop at a given time. Explaining to the staff what to look for. Hiring a pro to go around watching people. Buying surveillance. But not raising prices. The market on physical products is generally highly competitive, so price hikes tends to be the last thing a vendor tries.

The corporation always makes it's money back somehow, and unfortunately it's always from the honest paying customer. I'm not saying that is right, I'm just saying no piracy = lower prices. (probably)

You're mistaking corporations for benevolent/conscientious entities. They're not. If it can up the price without ill effects, lowering it is not an option. In fact, doing so would violate the law (fucking shareholders for the sake of the customers isn't legal anywhere in the world).

They even removed the 10-day rule from shops around here because of pirates.

Chances are they just used piracy as an excuse. Every time you return a purchase to a shop, the shop incurs expenses. Those expenses frequently can't be reclaimed by the shop, and never 100%. Obviously any retailer will jump at any excuse to refuse the service.

Of course it doesn't hold water either. Cracking/circumventing copy protection has always been time consuming & difficult. It's not something very many people would want to do, and especially since the days of keygens, isn't something very many people are capable of.

So all this bullshit about pirates being some kind of Robin Hood character is crap, they are shafting the consumer more than the faceless corporation, imo.

I'm in no way playing pirate apologist here, because piracy is no solution to anything. However, it's a massive fucking stretch to blame it for all the shit corporates & retailers wants us to put up with. Because the simple fact is that with or without pirates, they'd want to subject us to the shit.

 

[The Rambling Sage]

As VD pointed out, you are screwing over the hard working developer. I am hardly a hypocrite, and in fact you are because what you do does hurt people. The premise of your argument is centered around this idea of not hurting people, while mine is not. So it hardly hurts my argument, rather it shows the weakness of yours. In fact, I would consider a lost job, that once supported a family, a far more harmful thing than DRM, but this thread is full of relativism, so it must be ok because a large mass of people(pirates) think it's ok.

A developer losing his job is not a fault of the pirate, but of the employer who think gain is more important than the developer. The pirate is doing his moral obligation, making something that many people can't allow themselves to own available to them without asking nothing in exchange and by means of perfecting a craft in a way that benefit many.

The problem with you is that you defend by means of Absolute Morals a system that is WRONG by means of Absolute Morals - That is a paradox that is not going to work in any way. You are calling me an hypocrite because i take that very same morals to heart even if they are against our cultural context? How... How... Relativist of you.

What does the pirate gain when he seeds a torrent for months after they got the loot and played the game? Nothing, at all. He does not gain recognition, because the system is anonymous. He does not gain money. He does not gain respect, since the entire establishment threats him like a criminal. At most he gets a "Thank You" post in a tracker. And he does it still - Using the bandwidth he PAYS for and using the disk space he PAID for just so other people can have fun with the game.

Immoral? Yeah, man. A monster. They should burn him in the stake.

I'm merely apply an ethical idea to piracy and work from there. It covers all of these "shades of grey" people continue to talk about in justification of their actions. You know this from our previous thread I think. I generally try to tackle it from a position of understanding, but some people are dense and it takes more effort than is usually worth.

I am not talking about shades of gray. Capitalism is wrong from the moral perspective you champion - Yet you defend it and it's industries. Sharing (the so called piracy) without gaining nothing is right from the moral perspective you champion - Yet you attack it in spite of it. Apply some though to what i am saying instead of just arguing and you will see were i am sailing from.

You are fighting the wrong guys. A shame, since your heart is on the right place - I hope, at least.

This private discussion with you is in fact a continuation of that thread for me :wink: that i posted the so-called Xi bait for. I am actually discussing this as someone who thinks you are right in defending the morals you are defending and actually took them to heart in an absolute manner - But who has gave them a lot of thought in the meantime, applying them to almost everything as a test, and ended in the opposite side once again.

So don't take this as a personal attack. It is just a debate, like always with me... even if i come as offensive or rough around the edges.