Great job, Bioware!

[Mareus]

They allowed poor people to play games they could otherwise never play, thus making the market bigger.

Please excuse me while I shed some tears. I can't afford a Enzo Ferrari, so I guess I have no choice but to steal one!

You still haven't said anything about how you feel about DRM.

Not very bright, are you?

Neither are you. I already explained things in great detail I just don't want to reply myself.

 

[Hory]

 

[elander_]

That's still theft, obviously. You're playing a game without a license bought from the publisher, thus, you're a pirate. End of story.

You mean i can't sell an original game i buy to another person? What next games that self-destruct after 1 month?

 

[Lumpy]

If you paid for the game, then absolutely you should be able to play it. As I already said, my comment was directed at those who feel they have the right to play a game without paying for it. They don't. And someone can come up with as many creative reasons as they like to justify their behavior, but it's still theft. If you don't like how a company is treating you as a customer, or you think these companies are "misleading" in their sales pracitces, you have every right to not be their customer. What you do not have the right to do is to not be their customer and still play the game. "Shades of grey" is a cop-out -- it's theft. If you're okay with that, then the discussion ends there.

I don't claim to have the right to pirate games, but it won't keep me from sleeping at night either.
Also, saying "piracy is theft" is meaningless. Okay, it is. Does that make it equally immoral to stealing items from a store or from another person? No. The morality of an act of theft depends on the specifics of the act - by classifying piracy under theft, you don't make it the same as stealing an item, you just loosen the meaning of the term "theft".

 

[Mareus]

This thread is going in circles. Needs a bit of refreshment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlWDJQXeihg

 

[Castanova]

It's disappointing that the thread devolved into a flamewar about whether piracy is theft or not. It should have stayed on track as a critique of modern DRM policies in the software industry. You all let Gaider escape on his high horse unscathed.

 

[pkt-zer0]

You mean i can't sell an original game i buy to another person?

Yep.

Software piracy is the unauthorized copying or distribution of copyrighted software. This can be done by copying, downloading, sharing, selling, or installing multiple copies onto personal or work computers. What a lot of people don't realize or don't think about is that when you purchase software, you are actually purchasing a license to use it, not the actual software. That license is what tells you how many times you can install the software, so it's important to read it. If you make more copies of the software than the license permits, you are pirating.

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

It's disappointing that the thread devolved into a flamewar about whether piracy is theft or not. It should have stayed on track as a critique of modern DRM policies in the software industry. You all let Gaider escape on his high horse unscathed.

We did get a wonderful quote to take entirely out of context at every opportunity, at least.

 

[bezimek]

So people who buy the game, and are not tech-savvy to "download a non-DRM mod" and "install a non-DRM exe" or maybe even "don't have internet"... any feelings for them?

This discussion is not about piracy, it's about alienating proper customers. I will not buy, for a principle, games with DRM. I'd rather use my money to buy some other game.[

It is discussion about piracy and stealing just read posts. Most people say that DRM give them right to steal Mass Effect or other games. I say one thing - if DRM is problem for you buy orignal game and use mod exe , if game with DRM is problem for you don`t steal this game and use money to buy some other game without DRM.

Troika games without patches were unplayable, for instance VM:B without patch could not be finished - any feelings for Troika customers ?

Don't dodge the question, but if you really want to play - and who's not getting payed for there work on fixing this DRM shit?

You don`t answer my question. Bioware made MS and you can buy theirs game or not. If you DL MS you steal it . Plain and simple without implicit implications.

 

[Mareus]

GHAKKAH WTFFF!!! *falls on his ass*

 

[Zinc]

This is all going over my head a bit here. Could someone summarize what is so bad about DRM? I've done a tiny bit of research and the only bad thing I can find about it is that it must "access the user's system" or something.

 

[Disconnected]

You all let Gaider escape on his high horse unscathed.

Yes it is, but no we didn't. The dodgy fuck is just too much of a hypocrite to have the discussion, and obviously we can't pin the fucker down & force him.

Whatever, he's just another "the rules applies to you, but not to me 'cuz I'm special" parasite. Fuck him. Makes me wish I'd never bought a Bioware game, but alas, I believe people should be able to enjoy the fruits of honest labour & determined frauds like Dgaider can of course take advantage of that.

Again: don't buy/download/whatever the game. Don't give them money & free advertising. Don't donate your bandwidth to help spread their shit around. Don't give them that fucking free lunch. Just let them fade away into obscurity like the bad memory they ought to be.

 

[Jedi_Learner]

Neither are you.

KOTOR II is in your top ten games. Enough said.

 

[Castanova]

It's intrusive, it requires an internet connection, and it causes paying customers to be unable to play their own games for various reasons (their CD drive doesn't support the DRM, they don't have an internet connection, the DRM is flat out broken, etc.). Additionally, there have been DRM scheme(s) that literally did damage to the customer's computer. Furthermore, it represents a reduction in the rights of the paying customer while forcing them to pay the same amount of money for it.

 

[racofer]

I don't understand how there's a worldwide risk of water shortage with so much whining on a single thread.

 

[The Rambling Sage]

This is all going over my head a bit here. Could someone summarize what is so bad about DRM? I've done a tiny bit of research and the only bad thing I can find about it is that it must "access the user's system" or something.

On this singular case?

1. They put an intrusive DRM to stop piracy.
2. The intrusive DRM fucked some of their customers.
3. The intrusive DRM made some of their customers stop being customers.
4. Some of the no-longer-customers went rogue of the seven seas.
5. One day after release there was a bypass.
6. Two days after release there was a crack.
7. Three days after release the crack was released "officially".

So they put an orwellian DRM on their game (and one also declares, quite openly, you are NOT the owner of the game). They fuck their customers. Loss some customers. Create some pirates. And the DRM shows to be completely ineffective against pirates, being unable to even delay them a couple of days.

The DRM was not a gift, i think... So they also lost money in something that made them loss more money and then did not what it was promised.

You do not fight against pirates - They win, by default. They are Legion, they are quite tech-savvy (if anecdotical evidence counts for something, usually even more than game designers), they TRAIN people for free (just as other guys from the Net Underground do), they have an infrastructure without a head you can cut, and P2P systems are becoming more and more decentraliced (really bad spelling, sorry) every generation. There has not been a single anti-piracy system that haven't been ritually feed to the Dev/Null monster in a matter of weeks, if not days - Days or weeks pirates passed playing other games, downloading the image, and checking if the crack was already out instead of buying the games (that being what THEY like to think pirates will do if the delay the crack long enough).

So the problem with all this fiasco is that it is shameful, humilliating, and SHOULD be enlightening for a certain guy who loves too much to wave the corporate flag. And all that crap about the hard work, the effort, the time away from our families, and how i wasn't present when my dog died is just smallest violin in the world material - They are not starving, so cut the shit.

 

[WalterKinde]

It limits the amount of installs you can have to three, not in the sense that you can only install the game three times but more of the type of three install profiles, meaning if you have four computers you are SOL, you have to call up either Securom or EA to get them to deactivate one of the installs after proving you are the legit owner

Now at first that doesn't sound bad until you realize should anything happen to the verification servers you are stuck with a non working piece of software at most with the original fallout games,nwn,baldur's gate etc the only thing you would have to worry about is if the OS was too advanced to now run the game or you had lost the original serial in the case of NWN. Also this type of drm is similiar to Bioshock's five install limit meaning if you have multiple accounts/profiles on your windows pc.
Every account upon which ME is installed will be considered a new activation/install, change your pc hardware (like windows XP or Vista we have no idea what will trigger this) a new activation/install, lend your friend the game, a new activation required (xbox360 ME and Bioshock doesn't require this).
This also limits second hand sale like Bioshock you cannot sell or give this game away after use.

Now in the real world where pc gamers live these type of drm schemes ALWAYS have problem ,example cardtrick couldn't activate his version of ME even though he has a net connection the game kept saying he didn't, after a bit of workaround that he came up with himself, he finally got it to work.
Others had to install on another pc thereby using up two of the three installs to get the game to run and still others even installing on a different pc couldn't get it to run, with Bioshock which also used a similiar Securom scheme people ended up not being able to get the game to verify itself as well.
For a single player offline game this is too much and ridiculous, legit users have to jump through all sorts of hoops , have their rights trampled upon and all for what?
The game was cracked in less than 48hrs after release.

 

[Zinc]

I understand now. But I can't help but feel that if there were no pirates to begin with, then there would never have been any need for something like DRM. Also, the prices of games would most likely be lower. It's like shops putting up the prices of their products to make up the money lost due to theft. The corporation always makes it's money back somehow, and unfortunately it's always from the honest paying customer. I'm not saying that is right, I'm just saying no piracy = lower prices. (probably)

They even removed the 10-day rule from shops around here because of pirates. That was a rule that you could return a game within 10 days, even if you just plain didn't like it, or you got bored with it, and they would refund the whole thing. So all this bullshit about pirates being some kind of Robin Hood character is crap, they are shafting the consumer more than the faceless corporation, imo.

 

[MetalCraze]

Skyway asked you a valid question that I think you should answer, do it or shut the hell up.

Obviously I don't really care what he wants, nor what you demand.

Liberating, isn't it?

so basically it was a "fuck you" answer? nice.
so when somebody pirates your game this is bad but then when you're asked why are you basically giving excuses to pirates to pirate your game yourself (and as a part of Bioware you're also responsible for what Bio is doing) you answer "fuck you" thus giving more reasons to show disrespect for you and your "corporation" and this is, without a doubt, morally correct?

That was a rule that you could return a game within 10 days, even if you just plain didn't like it, or you got bored with it, and they would refund the whole thing. So all this bullshit about pirates being some kind of Robin Hood character is crap, they are shafting the consumer more than the faceless corporation, imo.

Zinc, games existed for a long time, piracy existed even longer. to copy the game at home without anything was easier years ago. now you have to know how to use special software and most people are still dumb lamers when it comes to that. and they decided to remove 10 days only now. after several decades. it's nothing more than an excuse for not letting you return the shit game they won't be able to resell because you've already opened the box. piracy didn't become any worse. devs are just lazy fucks. look at the short shit games they release - they work less, considerably less. but they are richer with every year. shouldn't piracy make it the other way?

 

[Xi]

This is all going over my head a bit here. Could someone summarize what is so bad about DRM? I've done a tiny bit of research and the only bad thing I can find about it is that it must "access the user's system" or something.

This is essentially my position. The majority of customers, a large majority, will experience no problems and not even care. There is a vocal minority that are up n arms over the DRM, and IMHO it seems like a lot of crying for nothing. Just buy it, activate it online, and play it. What's the big deal?

/sigh

Some of these people are acting like everyone is having issues with DRM and therefore it screws over real customers. This is just not true. In fact, skyway would have us believe that software piracy existed before software and as such must be a naturally occurring thing. I like how some of these people like to apply "shades of grey" to their personal thefts of the product while not allowing any greyness in terms of how DRM may actually promote sales to an extent. They distort their own belief of such things by pretending that they are applying middle thinking when in fact they only offer a very black and white idea about how DRM is always bad and why piracy is good. Pathetic.

This same thing happened when Valve rolled out steam. Guess what!? It did not have any negative impact on sales. At least steam offers more features than just DRM, this I can agree with, as well as stardock/impulse, but people need to understand that EA will eventually jump into this bandwagon too.

 

[WalterKinde]

I understand now. But I can't help but feel that if there were no pirates to begin with, then there would never have been any need for something like DRM. Also, the prices of games would most likely be lower. It's like shops putting up the prices of their products to make up the money lost due to theft. The corporation always makes it's money back somehow, and unfortunately it's always from the honest paying customer. I'm not saying that is right, I'm just saying no piracy = lower prices. (probably)

They even removed the 10-day rule from shops around here because of pirates. That was a rule that you could return a game within 10 days, even if you just plain didn't like it, or you got bored with it, and they would refund the whole thing. So all this bullshit about pirates being some kind of Robin Hood character is crap, they are shafting the consumer more than the faceless corporation, imo.

I don't blame filesharers.
By issuing insane drm schemes like this you invite the code crackers groups.
Its generally a big game of "I dare you"..
I dare you to crack our copy protection, which they do.
I am not saying if they did away with copy protection/serial numbers then suddenly all file sharing would vanish HOWEVER they would earn the good will of the community and it would be LESS likely that people would p2p their games.
As for a fall in price thats a pipe dream, gaming in general has now become a big industry and like the music industry which basically price gouges people as relates to how much it takes to press a cd to how much it actually costs to buy a cd, thats what is happening here now, games cost more with less of the packaging and short playtimes (i have heard that somehow ME is only 20 hrs long), by this i mean most games these days come with a cardboard that shows what keys on the keyboard do what and maybe a five page manual and sometimes not even in a cd jewel case, just a paper sleeve and the real manual in pdf format on the game disc or sometimes only available as a download on the official site.
And yet they cost a whole lot more than their early industry counterparts, my original version of fallout and baldur's gate would be considered the collector's deluxe version if those games were released today since those games shipped with so many addons like an actually real manual etc.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Yes, your company (and you, for spewing this garbage) are just that -- greedy.

Last time I checked, greed was good. That's what capitalism is based on.

No dearie, what this is really about is you thinking you should by all rights drive a Ferrari (what do you drive, snookums?) instead of making a decent living. That is nothing if not greed.

How wonderfully patronizing. What's wrong with driving a Ferrari again and why should someone who can earn himself a better lifestyle be content with a "decent" one?

Your morally charged accusation of thievery on the other hand is just amusing. You want me to pay in return for playing your game? Fine, I'll throw a buck or five your way. That's what I think it's worth. I might reconsider after playing it (I have before), I might not. Oh, you think I should pay you what you want me to pay? Well, that's different then, isn't it.

That's the dumbest shit I've ever read here. When you buy a book do you pay what you think this book is worth or do you pay what the store wants you to pay? How about gas for your car? I'm pretty sure that it's worth a third of what I'm being charged, but I have to pay the asking price. Or take a bus where I too have to pay the asking price for the ride. So, what's with this absolutely retarded "you think I should pay you what you want me to pay? Well, that's different then, isn't it?" argument?

I'll just play it for free, thank you very much. I can, you see, I've always been able to.

Wow! I want to be just like you when I grow up.

Software is not a scarce good, I can make a gazillion copies and you wouldn't know the difference -- public libraries are founded on that principle.

Mandatory "public libaries!" reference - check.

I own a rather large game collection (including several Bioware titles), larger than most people's in fact. I am also an avid pirate. If I would actually want to pay for every single book, game, movie, tv show, or music I have read, played, watched, or listened to, then I'm afraid I would need a few mortgages on a house I don't own. The same would go for a lot, if not most people. You and your ilk would deny such (that is, I posit, most) people these experiences, based on nothing but your own personal greed.

Imagine that, eh? He would deny us our right to take what we want without paying! The nerve! Next step - stores! I bet you like good computers, expensive booz, and sport cars. Yet some greedy fat cats would deny you all that stuff simply because you can't afford it. HOW IS THAT FAIR I SAY?!! DOWN WITH THE GOVERNMENT! FREE SHIT TO PEOPLE!!!

Hey, that's cool. Whatever makes your boat float, man. You should however get off your high horse and see yourself for what you really are.

Are you a retard, Futile? Or were you drunk when you posted it?

 

[Zinc]

devs are just lazy fucks. look at the short shit games they release - they work less, considerably less. but they are richer with every year

I agree completely here. But, as I always say, this is down to the idiots buying the crap, not the developers. If I could earn a 100 dollars for doing some work, but I could also earn 100 dollars for doing half the work, what am I going to choose?

The devs will churn out the shit if the masses are willing to consume it.

 

[Jedi_Learner]

so basically it was a "fuck you" answer? nice.

I think Gaider just couldn't be bothered reading your stupid post. Practically all your posts are stupid so he properly skips you entirely.

 

[The Rambling Sage]

Some of these people are acting like everyone is having issues with DRM and therefore it screws over real customers.

From where i am standing as long as it screws over one paying customer they have gone way too far.

They distort their own belief of such things by pretending that they are applying middle thinking when in fact they only offer a very black and white idea about how DRM is always bad and why piracy is good. Pathetic.

DRM that screws even one paying customers is always bad, period. If you pay for it you should have to just put in the player, install the sucker, and play away. If there is more than that involved, it is wrong - And if you must go looking for pirates as to be able to play the damn thing you just bought, it is a new and entire world of wrong.

And we have already proven pirates are good and DRM is evil in the second page. :wink: