Great job, Bioware!

[Volourn]

'Form of stealing'? L0L No, it's not stealing. Stealing would imply they purposefulkly sold a broken game. They didn't. Hence why patches exist. btw, Many people can play so called 'broken game's'.

You are also able to return 'broken games' getting your money back, or a replacement copy. Again, not theft. Nice try, bonehead.

Sir Bennus: Oh, SNAP! I was avoiding the touchy Troika issue. L0L That was too easy of a path...

 

[Saxon1974]

Volourn, I have to say I disagree with many things you say, but on this topic I agree with you.

Stealing games is wrong, it really is that simple. If you want games to get made, you should pay for them, or less games will get made, PERIOD.

The argument that DRM makes it a pain for buying customers is a completely different topic that should be in a differnet discussion. If you get a crack of a game that you already paid for to get it to work, then I have no problem with that.

I care enough about the RPG industry(As bad as it is now), that I dont want any developers getting ripped off for their work. Yes, the head guys at big companies make lots of money, that's true with any company but that still doesn't change the fact that if the type of games you like aren't bringing in money for the companies making them less will be made.

We live in a pretty sad society now where people find all kinds of ways to justify doing things that are morally wrong. So, you steal a game from a developer because you feel that they are greedy and rich....Does that make it right? I sure don't think so.

 

[Castanova]

You most certainly can NOT return an opened video game. At least in Northeast America. And selling a game under false pretenses is stealing. You are tricking someone into paying money for something they're not getting.

I'm not advocating piracy here. I am, however, extremely critical of these asinine DRM schemes and the companies that spend money to cripple their own games and then pass the cost on to honest customers.

 

[MetalCraze]

We don't live in a world of moral absolutes. Shades of grey and all that.

Bioware games prove otherwise

 

[FeelTheRads]

Wait, I had this great revelation... free games hurt the big companies. Second hand games hurt the big companies. Yeah, take that ebayers, you're just as bad as the pirates!

Hey, you know, I think walking and public transportation hurt car manufacturers!

And what the fuck... free software hurts big software developers. Look at that... I'm not paying $4000 dollars for 3D fucking MAX (and I'm mentioning this because that's all you fucking maggots heard about and as such think it's the only one that exists, much like IE users), I'm instead getting Blender which is free and better in some aspects. Man, I suck at capitalism - I should support 3D MAX developers when they can't even fucking get their software better than a free one. Yeah, hopefully one day they will if I support them. Like big game companies, they sure are making better and new games if they sell millions Piece Of Crap instead of just making Piece Of Crap 2 and selling millions again.
Saying that by buying bad games you support the creation of good games is absolutely imbecilic - you only support bad games. When you buy good games you support the creation of good games. It's as simple as that. If people would stop buying every Fifa, every NHL, every Oblivion out there, you can bet your asses the developers will give up on them and would try to attract customers with more interesting titles.

Anyway I'm of course exaggerating with the analogies above, but you see that even though piracy is theft (by law) it doesn't hurt developers more than alternatives usually hurt.


Oh, and Mr. Fucking Fatso Gaider... fuck you and your company. You who in the other thread gave such an example of raving sarcasm

Ut! You must not speak against the Fallout.

It is forbidden here."

Yeah, it must really hurt when after so many years neither of Bioware's games managed to top Fallout in any aspect starting from music to artistic direction to gameplay. It must really hurt to know you suck and such pain can only be alleviated by your poor attempts to belittle Fallout.
Hey, Fallout was not perfect so we shouldn't criticize Bioware's games for the pieces of shit they are either! Wouldn't that be nice? Too bad people can actually smell your crap, no?

 

[inwoker]

I vote ViolentOpposition wins the thread

 

[Volourn]

"You most certainly can NOT return an opened video game. At least in Northeast America. And selling a game under false pretenses is stealing. You are tricking someone into paying money for something they're not getting."

1. Can here. *shrug*

2. It's not false pretenses b/c unless they make broken games by purpose their intentions is to sell working games hence why even the buggiest games tend to work for MOST PEOPLE who buy them. Hence, why it's not stealing. Ther eis no 'tricking' involved.

C. Accoridng to your logic, the Codex's precious Troika are 'thieves'.

 

[Castanova]

That's not true. Bugs are not malicious in nature and have 30 years of historical precedence. Intrusive DRM is malicious in nature and has no significant historical precedent which confounds customer expectations about what they're paying for.

 

[FeelTheRads]

hell, I don't care if someone could prove that piracy actually incrase sales (some actually make that argument, lol); piracy is still theft hence it is wrong. Period.

Man, you are a retard. Have you tied thinking for yourself? No, of course not... if the law tells you piracy is wrong then it doesn't matter if it actually isn't or it's beneficial even. Do you realize how fucking retarded that sounds?

(some actually make that argument, lol)

While it can't be proved, how can you disprove it that you dismiss it so easily?

 

[MetalCraze]

Well, I wasn't commenting on the DRM itself -- I certainly feel for anyone who buys their game and can't play it, that's a sucky situation to be in.

well I think people should thank you Bioware for this situation.

I only meant to comment on those people who feel they have the right to play a game they haven't paid for, and now hold up DRM as justification

well who cares about reasons? pirates play it. your customers don't. better now?

as if "sticking it" to us greedy types makes them somehow heroic instead of greedy types themselves. Do what you think you must, but at least own up to it. It doesn't make it right, but at least it's not pathetic.

the problem is you're forcing people to pirate it. why do you believe that everyone who will pirate it and say it's because of DRM is a bad guy that intended to pirate the game from the start by default?
ah but of course - there are only black & white choices in Bioware.
don't you think that it's a bit unfair to ask $50 from the customer for ONLY 20 hours of gameplay and for ONLY 3 installs and for treating customers like shit? compared to BG2 which didn't have DRM bullshit and had ~100 hours of gameplay. who's greedy now eh?

Not that there's much point to my saying so, but hey -- this wouldn't be the internet if everyone didn't feel the need to throw their two cents into the pool.

so when will Securom find the internet connection?

 

[Volourn]

"Intrusive DRM is malicious in nature and has no significant historical precedent which confounds customer expectations about what they're paying for."

Except BIO, and EA were 100% upfront about DRM. Now, the bugs that come with it ar elikely not intentional. Afterall, if it made the games completely unplayable so nobody cna play it that would be bad business. Period.


"No, of course not... if the law tells you piracy is wrong then it doesn't matter if it actually isn't or it's beneficial even"

i don't give a shit what the law thinks. The law is irrelevant. There's plenty of laws I disagree with fuckface. Do you realize how retarded youa re making such a pathetic accusation? LMAO

And, lol, coming from a wannabe Hivemind tm member, me being accused of not thinking for myself is HILARIOUS!!!

 

[MetalCraze]

Now, the bugs that come with it ar elikely not intentional.

you're stupid. everybody perfectly knew that DRM is a bad idea and only customers will suffer. it was told to bioware and EA a fucking hundred times as soon as they've announced that DRM is in.
what did EA and Bio do? they installed DRM regardless (ignoring the protests of the legitimate customers who uh oh bought their previous titles) without even testing it to see if it works. now don't tell me EA and Bio are fucking innocent sheep and don't deserve the flame and other things they get.
now pirates whom you hate play the game and don't care much about your fanboy rants while legitimate customers feel themselves fucked in the butt. hello Bioshock 2.

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

Now, the bugs that come with it are likely not intentional.

If they were that would mean those idiots have a brain.

 

[Mareus]

This has nothing to dow ith BIO, fucknut. Thi is true even when dealing with companies I dislike like Bethesda. I don't like their games so i don't buy them. I most certainly don't steal them. Dumbnutz.

Fuckin' thief apologists cna be just as bad as actual thieves! FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111

How can you know that you don't like their games if you haven't bought them or stole them? Have you maybe tried the pirated version?

Thief! THIEF!

 

[obediah]

It is a form of stealing if people paid the $50 under false pretenses - the pretense that the game would actually work properly and as games have worked historically.

Yep! Neither is technically stealing. But I'd bet a nut that if you rounded up a thousand people off the street and asked them which is worse, they would pick fraud over piracy.

 

[Volourn]

Who says I never bought their games? i've bought a few, played those ones, and enough was enough. I don't steal games. Period.

P.S. Piracy IS theft.

P.S.S. Thousand of people are retarded.

 

[easychord]

Saying that buying a product that has been sold under false pretenses is theft is just as much of a crock of shit as saying that piracy = theft. Neither are theft and neither are especially moral or even legal but not everything that's immoral or illegal is theft. Saying that both are theft nicely balances the bullshit on both sides of the argument even if the piracy = theft argument has more of a bandwagon following in the media industries. I wonder why that is?

 

[Dgaider]

Not trying to get on your nerves, kind Sir, but would you care to answer my tiny questions on page 4?

Please, please with sugar on top? I swear I won't cancel my preorder.

You asked questions on page 2, nothing on page 4 that I can see.

If you're referring to the questions on DRM on page 2, sorry but I can't answer any of them. I have nothing to do with DRM, and other than the fact that I work for Bioware I'm not sure why you think I might.

If you paid for the game, then absolutely you should be able to play it. As I already said, my comment was directed at those who feel they have the right to play a game without paying for it. They don't. And someone can come up with as many creative reasons as they like to justify their behavior, but it's still theft. If you don't like how a company is treating you as a customer, or you think these companies are "misleading" in their sales pracitces, you have every right to not be their customer. What you do not have the right to do is to not be their customer and still play the game. "Shades of grey" is a cop-out -- it's theft. If you're okay with that, then the discussion ends there.

 

[Mareus]

Who says I never bought their games? i've bought a few, played those ones, and enough was enough. I don't steal games. Period.

P.S. Piracy IS theft.

P.S.S. Thousand of people are retarded.

And I didn't like Temple of Elemental Evil, so does that mean I should not buy Troika's games anymore? Arcanum is a masterpiece. Bloodlines was also great. Or I hated Gothic 1,2 but I liked Gothic 3? You are missing a lot of potentially good games if you truly practice what you said, which I doubt. I am sure you played at least some pirated games if you consider yourself a real gamer, otherwise you would just miss a lot.

And game companies who earn millions of dollars by lying to the gamers are better than people who pirate games and encourage people to buy the product if they like it?

 

[Kingston]

I would agree that piracy is theft.

What you do not have the right to do is to not be their customer and still play the game.

Nope. I can borrow the game from a friend. This is what DRM is trying to prevent, and that's the part I find the most bullshitty.

 

[MetalCraze]

but you can't share with your friends - that's theft and an immoral thing! you fucking thief!
like someone already pointed out in this classic thread.

btw the laws of many civilised countries incl. Canada iirc state that a customer has a legitimate right to make one copy of the game he purchased. as only purchased games have DRM and DRM prevents one from making the copy - it means that DRM is illegal by default.
so let's not talk about how illegal/legal things are mr. Gaider ok?

 

[Mareus]

I would agree that piracy is theft.

What you do not have the right to do is to not be their customer and still play the game.

Nope. I can borrow the game from a friend. This is what DRM is trying to prevent, and that's the part I find the most bullshitty.

Some people do not have too many gamer friends who buy original games, you know. Look, I agree that piracy is theft legally, but what game companies are trying to do by lying and bribing is certainly no better. They really do not give much choice on the matter to people who love games. If I bought every shitty game for which developers said it will be next classic I would probably spend over 10000$. The idea alone of giving money to those liars makes me pissed off, even if it is just 10$. Yes I know I don't have to buy the game, but come on man, if I did like that I would have missed so many great titles I could hardly call myself a real gamer.

 

[Volourn]

"I am sure you played at least some pirated games if you consider yourself a real gamer, otherwise you would just miss a lot."

I don't pirate games, or play them. And, believe me I could. I have friends - hell, family - who have no problem pirating games. They often try to pawn their copies off to me. I say no. We have 'discussions' that are eventually dropped with no conclusion.

I bought, and played MW after it was out for a year from about $20. I haven't touched Oblivion nor do i plan to.

Pirating is theft, and theft is wrong. Period.

 

[Disconnected]

Well, I wasn't commenting on the DRM itself [...]

Of course you weren't. Down that path lies only the options of lying outrageously and/or making yourself look very bad indeed. You might consider, though, that when you do reply, and reply with provocative statements rather than something useful, those of us who're former customers feel even more alienated & maligned by you. Silly perhaps, but true all the same.

That said, I'd like to hear your honest answer: would you buy limited use of your product, for the full price of that product? - You know, the deal you're offering us. Be honest now.

Also, speaking of not being pathetic: take a fucking stand on your DRM already. Even if it's just "I had no choice & might get sacked if I answer."

TANSTAAFL. Look it up. Nobody likes a parasite.

 

[Volourn]

"They really do not give much choice on the matter to people who love games. If I bought every shitty game for which developers said it will be next classic I would probably spend over 10000$. The idea alone of giving money to those liars makes me pissed off, even if it is just 10$. Yes I know I don't have to buy the game, but come on man, if I did like that I would have missed so many great titles I could hardly call myself a real gamer."

You have plenty of otions.

1. Give a developer/publisher a chance and believ them the first time.

2. Wait til both unofficial/official reviews come out.

3. Do research beyond the hype.

4. Wait til the game comes down in price and you feel the money is worth the risk of buying a dud.

It's illogicla to think you must absolutely have the newest game as soon as it come sout. It's silly.
_________________