Great job, Bioware!

[obediah]

What you do not have the right to do is to not be their customer and still play the game.

What about borrowed copies? second-hand copies?

"Shades of grey" is a cop-out -- it's theft. If you're okay with that, then the discussion ends there.

You can wrap yourself in ignorance and naivety, plug your ears and scream "Thief! Thief! Thief!" The problem isn't going to go away, because it is more complicated than that. This has happened before, and economic, legal, and ethical history all tell us that waging war on your customers and lobbying for more and more extreme legal punishments isn't the answer.

We have all these IP laws because piracy is not theft. They are more and more draconian because the law is not aligned with society. Basically, when civilians fail to agree that something is bad, the legal system gets more and more heavy handed to try to get their point across. Usually they fail, and after years or decades the laws vanish. Or they succeed and the punishments fall back in line.

Right now Joe on the street would line things up as

pirate video game < steal video game < assault video game developer

while the justice system looks at it as

steal video game < assault video game developer < pirate video game

Which is completely ludicrous, but it shows how much trouble the industry and lawmakers are having rewriting the morales of americans.

Tip of the day: When someone says piracy isn't theft, they are technically correct. Rather than writing them off as pro-piracy, perhaps they just want to discuss the situation realistically rather than being obseesed with a flawed abstraction of the problem that offers no insight into the problem at hand.

 

[Herbert West]

Piracy is wrong, it's theft. I agree. However, I also think that no excuse is good enough for shafting legal, paying customers with intrusive DRM that obviously has problems.

Anyway, what's your stance on buying the game and downloading a crack to get rid of DRM? It probably does break the EULA in some way. Does it make any sort of difference however? I buy it- money goes to the devs and the publisher, and I get to have the kind of gaming experience I expect and pay for.

 

[MetalCraze]

I'm more interested in what Bioware will do now.
it's been 3 days and yet no fix was published (except pirate's one - which means that crackers are technically doing what you should've done by now - releasing a no-securom patch - as there's no point in DRM anymore - DRM failed. again. the game was pirated. there's nothing DRM can do now).
but not only fix - no official apology.
the only thing Gaider and his blind fanboy did here is derailed the discussion into "oh you're bad pirates all of you who are against us bawwww" instead of "what will bioware do now?".

in other words - I don't want another fucking discussion about the morality and legality of the shit I don't care about. Gaider have the balls and tell us your stance on your DRM instead of "oh I feel you but I can't talk" bs.

 

[easychord]

When someone says piracy isn't theft, they are technically correct. Rather than writing them off as pro-piracy, perhaps they just want to discuss the situation realistically rather than being obseesed with a flawed abstraction of the problem that offers no insight into the problem at hand.

Technically is the best sort of correct.

 

[Dgaider]

Look, I agree that piracy is theft legally, but what game companies are trying to do by lying and bribing is certainly no better. They really do not give much choice on the matter to people who love games. If I bought every shitty game for which developers said it will be next classic I would probably spend over 10000$. The idea alone of giving money to those liars makes me pissed off, even if it is just 10$.

Ahhh, I see. So you believe every single commercial and piece of advertising out there without question, then? Every company that lauds their own product is obviously an evil briber who deserves to have their products stolen? I would expect someone in this day and age to be a bit more media savvy, but if not I can certainly see why you might be a bit bitter about the whole thing.

Yes I know I don't have to buy the game, but come on man, if I did like that I would have missed so many great titles I could hardly call myself a real gamer.

Well, far be it for me to take away your constitutional right to be a real gamer.

 

[Walkin' Dude]

Piracy is theft, just like singing Happy Birthday in public is theft. How can you horrible people live with yourselves?

 

[pkt-zer0]

Volourn itself is the single most convincing pro-piracy argument.

What about borrowed copies? second-hand copies?

That's still theft, obviously. You're playing a game without a license bought from the publisher, thus, you're a pirate. End of story.



Anyway, I thought it was the paying customers that actually mattered, not the non-customers. They're not giving you their money, who cares what game they're playing with in their spare time? More intrusive DRM seems to be aimed at preventing non-customers from playing the game - but hey, it's not like they were intent on paying you anything in the first place. Business works when both the buyer and seller are satisfied, i.e., the publisher wants to part with the game, the customer wants to part with his/her money. Reflexive Entertainment's reported 0.1% pirate-to-customer conversion ratio would suggest that more SecuROM bullshit isn't going to make people more willing to part with their money.

Also, see Stardock, GalCiv2, etc. for why piracy might not be the great evil thing that's killing PC gaming.

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

Look, I agree that piracy is theft legally, but what game companies are trying to do by lying and bribing is certainly no better. They really do not give much choice on the matter to people who love games. If I bought every shitty game for which developers said it will be next classic I would probably spend over 10000$. The idea alone of giving money to those liars makes me pissed off, even if it is just 10$.

Ahhh, I see. So you believe every single commercial and piece of advertising out there without question, then? Every company that lauds their own product is obviously an evil briber who deserves to have their products stolen? I would expect someone in this day and age to be a bit more media savvy, but if not I can certainly see why you might be a bit bitter about the whole thing.

Yes I know I don't have to buy the game, but come on man, if I did like that I would have missed so many great titles I could hardly call myself a real gamer.

Well, far be it for me to take away your constitutional right to be a real gamer.

Skyway asked you a valid question that I think you should answer, do it or shut the hell up.

 

[Mareus]

"They really do not give much choice on the matter to people who love games. If I bought every shitty game for which developers said it will be next classic I would probably spend over 10000$. The idea alone of giving money to those liars makes me pissed off, even if it is just 10$. Yes I know I don't have to buy the game, but come on man, if I did like that I would have missed so many great titles I could hardly call myself a real gamer."

You have plenty of otions.

1. Give a developer/publisher a chance and believ them the first time.

2. Wait til both unofficial/official reviews come out.

3. Do research beyond the hype.

4. Wait til the game comes down in price and you feel the money is worth the risk of buying a dud.

It's illogicla to think you must absolutely have the newest game as soon as it come sout. It's silly.
_________________

I always do that, but still get fucked up in the ass because it is very hard to find an objective review. Also you are forgetting the personal preference which comes with all games. Gothic for example is a game that got many good reviews and even a lot of people here on the codex praise it as one of the best RPGs ever made. Still I am glad I tried it out on the pirated version, because I really could never get into the game. There are many such games. If I just chose to blindly trust the reviews which have been bought very often by the game companies, or even if I chose to trust my best friend who has a similar taste in games as me, I could still get ass fucked because the game just isn't for me. And how can I know that if not trying it first? I really believe I am not doing anything wrong or immoral with getting a pirated version and trying it out before buying the game. Furthermore, pirates did more good for the games than they did the bad, of that I am sure.

 

[Dgaider]

Skyway asked you a valid question that I think you should answer, do it or shut the hell up.

Obviously I don't really care what he wants, nor what you demand.

Liberating, isn't it?

 

[Jedi_Learner]

If you don't like how a company is treating you as a customer, or you think these companies are "misleading" in their sales pracitces, you have every right to not be their customer. What you do not have the right to do is to not be their customer and still play the game. "Shades of grey" is a cop-out -- it's theft. If you're okay with that, then the discussion ends there.

Best post in this sorry excuse of a thread.

 

[WalterKinde]

So still no official patch to remove the drm eh?
We have gone over and over this filesharing equals theft or filesharing does not equal theft argument in several different threads.
All i want to know is whether or not the drm is coming off the game for legitimate buyers, no dancing around the issue and only quoting specific threads in this post that give fuel to the pro or anti filesharing arguments.

 

[bezimek]

Sorry but most of you tells nonsenses. "Mass Effect" as Skyway said is already broken so DRM is not matter here . Just buy original game and after that use mod. exe to bypass DRM. Case solved end of story.

Piracy is theft and it is fact :!:

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

Sorry but most of you tells nonsenses. "Mass Effect" as Skyway said is already broken so DRM is not matter here.

And thanks to who, may I ask?

 

[Mareus]

Look, I agree that piracy is theft legally, but what game companies are trying to do by lying and bribing is certainly no better. They really do not give much choice on the matter to people who love games. If I bought every shitty game for which developers said it will be next classic I would probably spend over 10000$. The idea alone of giving money to those liars makes me pissed off, even if it is just 10$.

Ahhh, I see. So you believe every single commercial and piece of advertising out there without question, then? Every company that lauds their own product is obviously an evil briber who deserves to have their products stolen? I would expect someone in this day and age to be a bit more media savvy, but if not I can certainly see why you might be a bit bitter about the whole thing.

Yes I know I don't have to buy the game, but come on man, if I did like that I would have missed so many great titles I could hardly call myself a real gamer.

Well, far be it for me to take away your constitutional right to be a real gamer.

Look mr. Gdaiger, pirates made the games more widespread. If anything they even increased the sales. They allowed poor people to play games they could otherwise never play, thus making the market bigger. I and many of my friends started with pirated games, but have started to buy your games after realising they are great. A market which would never be opened if it werent for pirates. Also, I have already explained why you cannot trust media. Also I borrow my copied game to my friends, and they borrow to their friends, etc. Many of those friends actually buy the game if they liked it.

Also if your company is so moral, why don't you allow people to return the game if they didn't like it? A thing you can do with almostevery other product?!

PS. You still haven't said anything about how you feel about DRM.

 

[The Rambling Sage]

Ahhh, I see. So you believe every single commercial and piece of advertising out there without question, then? Every company that lauds their own product is obviously an evil briber who deserves to have their products stolen? I would expect someone in this day and age to be a bit more media savvy, but if not I can certainly see why you might be a bit bitter about the whole thing.

So...

1. Piracy is wrong. You are a criminal if you do.

2. False Advertizing is all nice and dandy. You are an idiot and a retard if you fall for it.

I am the only one who thinks the posture of Mr.G is a little biased in favor of the corporate side of this discussion?

Obviously I don't really care what he wants, nor what you demand.

Liberating, isn't it?

(...) is a cop-out (...) If you're okay with that, then the discussion ends there.

[edit]

Sorry but most of you tells nonsenses. "Mass Effect" as Skyway said is already broken so DRM is not matter here . Just buy original game and after that use mod. exe to bypass DRM. Case solved end of story.

Sorry, but if i am only going to be able to play the game without DRM thanks to the pirates i will pay Bioware for the game when they pay the Pirates for the no-drm patch.

 

[Jedi_Learner]

They allowed poor people to play games they could otherwise never play, thus making the market bigger.

Please excuse me while I shed some tears. I can't afford a Enzo Ferrari, so I guess I have no choice but to steal one!

You still haven't said anything about how you feel about DRM.

Not very bright, are you?

 

[User was nabbed fit]

Dgaider, please get this message to your overlords:

To those whom this concerns: even the people at Bethesda aren't as retarded as you. Stop using copy protection which costs a ton of money and which doesn't even work anyway, since it's eventually (and pretty quickly) cracked. All you're doing is screwing over the people who are keeping you in business.

Scenario: person wants to copy his game for a friend (or found a way to download an ISO). When he sees the game is copy protected, two (no more, no less) things can happen. Either he'll forget about it (he might not know of a way to get around it, or he just might not want to be bothered), OR he will look for a crack.

He WILL find a crack, because these things are always cracked. What the fuck does it matter how complicated your protection is once it's cracked? What's the difference between a simple copy protection system that was cracked, and a complex and intrusive copy protection system that was cracked? None. At the end of the day, the king and the pawn go back in the same box. The 'awesome' copy protection system is just as good as the 'simple' one once they're both cracked: useless. They were both cracked, the difference being that one was (stupidly) a pain in the ass for people who didn't use the crack, and who are the actual ones keeping you in business by legitimately buying your games in the first place.

Therefor it makes sense to use simple (though not easy enough for random users to bypass without a modified .exe) copy protection because:

1) it costs a lot less

2) it keeps your customers happy because they're not getting that fucked in the ass feeling

3) it'll still stop people who won't be bothered to look for a crack

 

[Gragt]

They allowed poor people to play games they could otherwise never play, thus making the market bigger.

Robin Hood would be proud of them.

 

[bezimek]

Sorry but most of you tells nonsenses. "Mass Effect" as Skyway said is already broken so DRM is not matter here.

And thanks to who, may I ask?

Mod exe solved DRM problem so you can buy game and play it, now. End of story without implicit implications.

And thanks to who we have Mass Effect for PC , my I ask ?

Sorry, but if i am only going to be able to play the game without DRM thanks to the pirates i will pay Bioware for the game when they pay the Pirates for the no-drm patch.

Most players can play MS without problems. Just look on Bioware forum or other forums.

 

[shihonage]

stuff on page 1

This was an awesome post. Also, looking at the rest of the thread, "David Gaider" is the new Derek Smart ?

 

[Kingston]

Liberating, isn't it?

In a turdy sense, yes. Ignoring questions seems pretty gay to me.

Do you have any arguements for why there should be DRM?

 

[Binary]

Sorry but most of you tells nonsenses. "Mass Effect" as Skyway said is already broken so DRM is not matter here.

And thanks to who, may I ask?

Mod exe solved DRM problem so you can buy game and play it, now. End of story without implicit implications.

And thanks to who we have Mass Effect for PC , my I ask ?

Sorry, but if i am only going to be able to play the game without DRM thanks to the pirates i will pay Bioware for the game when they pay the Pirates for the no-drm patch.

Most players can play MS without problems. Just look on Bioware forum or other forums.

So people who buy the game, and are not tech-savvy to "download a non-DRM mod" and "install a non-DRM exe" or maybe even "don't have internet"... any feelings for them?

This discussion is not about piracy, it's about alienating proper customers. I will not buy, for a principle, games with DRM. I'd rather use my money to buy some other game.

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

Sorry but most of you tells nonsenses. "Mass Effect" as Skyway said is already broken so DRM is not matter here.

And thanks to who, may I ask?

Mod exe solved DRM problem so you can buy game and play it, now. End of story without implicit implications.

Thanks for stating something what you wrote in your earlier post.

And thanks to who we have Mass Effect for PC, my I ask ?

Don't dodge the question, but if you really want to play - and who's not getting payed for there work on fixing this DRM shit?

 

[ricolikesrice]

....

i played through mass effect on my neighbours xbox360 which he borrowed me on his vacation.... is that theft too ? :/

was an okay game (not great but not bad either, some highs, many flaws... kinda on par with NWN2OC but nowhere near MOTB for example....) but i m not really happy with the inflation of game prices, so i m not gonna support that thing, especially since there are still companies around who dont work that way.....

i mean some years ago i could get around 200 hours of fun from a bioware game for 50 bucks (BG2) ..... nowadays i get around 20 hours of fun from a bioware game for 50 bucks.

maybe the average retard these days doesnt know math anymore, but overall selling 10 times less for the same prize equals raising a price by 10 times.... is it really surprising that people are more likely to "steal" when the cost for content rate has been raised to such retarded levels ? (least by some companies, like yours mr. gaider)

now please bring the stupid "but but but graphics are so much better these days" excuse... i even wont respond with a typical codex "but graphics dont matter, 3d sux, fuck you graphicwhores" answer.... i ll simply refer to 2 of my friends who in their freetime work with sandbox 2.0 to design crysis levels (which look quite a bit better both artistically and engine-technically... than Mass effect). it really doesnt take them much time / effort (and they arent professionals...)to create beatifull huge landscapes, models etc...... filling those levels with actual gameplay does... but thats equal to a 2d game, so not an excuse....

we could easily have gotten a 100 hour mass effect with a nice editor, but no, you d rather split up the game as a trilogy and spend those <1.000.000 $ for having a few more competent designers on advertisting and hype..... i say fuck that, even though the game was okay - not gonna get a cent from me unless ME costs 5 bucks, since thats what its worth compared to your very own BG2, when you go by content for cost....

i have no problem paying for games, but i have the feeling with companies like bioware 90% of the money i m paying is going towards marketing/getting big bosses fancy cars , not the actual game / people who design the game / further games. sorry.