Great job, Bioware!

[MetalCraze]

They also did a sequel to IWD. That was Feargus' slamdunk philosophy - quick sequels using the existing engine and art assets. However, if you paid attention it took them a very long time to start working on FO3, which, had the first two games sold that well, should have been the first priority.

or not. BIS is not EA - they didn't make sequel after sequel.

Doubtful. Maybe it was heavily pirated in Eastern Europe, but that's a different matter since these guys don't really influence sales.

do you really believe that a game that gained a huge popularity in the end of 90s wasn't pirated heavily? just to prevent that "but rpgs are so underground" type of post - games don't gain "legendary" status if they are interesting only to a small group of people.

Sure, BUT had the game not been pirated for 6 months, there would have been no damage other than the unfortunate delay.

but piracy didn't appear yesterday. Sierra perfectly knew what will happen and they even allowed the game to leak out. again you may say that piracy is bad bad bad - but that won't change a thing - piracy will still remain so guys must adapt. it's not a "omg piracy is cool" type of comment - it's just a simple fact.

- celebration about cracking of ME DRM

because everyone told bioware it will happen the day after release. incl. their customers. bioware said fuck you and installed drm - which led only to problems at a customer side.

- followed by claims that Bio is greedy

more like stupid. legitimate customers protested against DRM - Bio said "fuck you".

- followed by Gaider's post saying "we are not greedy, come on, you guys"

and then a "fuck you" response to questions "what will bioware do with their shit that fucked up so many people?"

*sigh* It's the system. If you can't change it, then try to understand it.

yes but system must not cry about piracy at every possibility:
game didn't sell because it was shit - piracy
we want more money but can't find an excuse to move to consoles - piracy
we don't want to pay our workers - piracy
our game has sys-reqs that most of the systems can't handle thus game didn't sell - piracy
we fail at life - piracy

A whole lot of people in this thread, including you.

me? where? I didn't.
so just to make you feel better I will make a point why piracy isn't always bad.
I had this game PoP: Sands Of Time. legitimately owned of course. I lost cds. I can't find them. shops don't sell the game anymore - and even if they are - I would have to pay for the game again the same (or bigger price) as we don't have bargain bins here. so I torrented it. thanks to piracy I was able to play the game again with only one downside - it was an english version, not russian unfortunately - Akella did a great job localizing the game for once.
so here's a blitz-question for you: was a piracy a great evil in this case and was my doing an immoral thing?

 

[Brother None]

They also did a sequel to IWD. That was Feargus' slamdunk philosophy - quick sequels using the existing engine and art assets. However, if you paid attention it took them a very long time to start working on FO3, which, had the first two games sold that well, should have been the first priority.

or not. BIS is not EA - they didn't make sequel after sequel.

Actually, I feel you don't really understand BIS. BIS, under Feargus' flag, made mostly sequels and derative products...and PS:T.

PS:T being the big exception (and even that is derative), most of it had to confirm to a "guaranteed sales" status first. This is what makes Feargus such a good manager - which is one of the reasons why Obsidian is doing better than Troika.

 

[WalterKinde]

Thank you Dgaider and others for moving this thread way off course.
its just going around in circles with filesharing equal theft or no filesharing does not equal theft.
The point people seem to be missing is that why do legit purchasers of the game have to jump through all these hoops with the drm while the game is an easy pickup/download for filesharers who don't have to go through all this.
Are they (EA Bioware) not hurting their bottom line with people who purchased the game or would have purchased the game because of this wholly restrictive drm?
That will probably come back to bite the company in its ass, it happened to jowood with Gothic 3 when they released the Gothic Universe Collection, while not as restrictive as Bioshock or ME, the incompitible drm wouldn't allow Gothic 3 to install correctly or run if you managed to install the game, for the later problem all people who purchased the Gothic Universe Collection have to install the community patch to remove/over write the gothic 3 exe, for the former you just have to pray your dvd drive is not one thats on the prohibit list of the drm being used otherwise you get errors and the game won't install. Interestingly someone in the official forums suggested as a fix downloading the game via p2p since you already bought it and who could it hurt, well apparently it could hurt jowood because he was immediately banned for even suggesting it he didn't even give a link of where to get it.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Oh and VDweller, don't tell me it's piracy that hurts developers. You know it isn't, don't give us the "I'm a developer now, feel sorry for me" speech, mmmkay?

Are you fucking retarded? When have I ever given this speech and even argued from a developer point of view?

Can't be arsed to quote you from other pages, but it's interesting to see you portraying the immature behaviour of other codexers. I expected better from you.

So you post some stupid assumptions because you "can't be arsed" to actually read what I wrote and then blame me for my response?

 

[Brother None]

its just going around in circles with filesharing equal theft or no filesharing does not equal theft.

If you'd actually bothered to read the thread before spamming in your reply, you'd notice some of us are still discussing the DRM's sale impact.

PS: wtf is up with WhiskeyWolf's posts?

 

[Vault Dweller]

They also did a sequel to IWD. That was Feargus' slamdunk philosophy - quick sequels using the existing engine and art assets. However, if you paid attention it took them a very long time to start working on FO3, which, had the first two games sold that well, should have been the first priority.

or not. BIS is not EA - they didn't make sequel after sequel.

Clueless much?

do you really believe that a game that gained a huge popularity in the end of 90s wasn't pirated heavily?

When most people were still on dial-ups?

but piracy didn't appear yesterday. Sierra perfectly knew what will happen and they even allowed the game to leak out. again you may say that piracy is bad bad bad - but that won't change a thing - piracy will still remain so guys must adapt. it's not a "omg piracy is cool" type of comment - it's just a simple fact.

Sure. And it's a simple fact that piracy brought Arcanum sales down to the point of Troika losing even a chance to make another Arcanum game.

and then a "fuck you" response to questions "what will bioware do with their shit that fucked up so many people?"

Is David a spokesperson for Bioware? No. He's a writer/designer. The question was a setup. I'm all in favor of hard questions but they should be directed to the right parties.

*sigh* It's the system. If you can't change it, then try to understand it.

yes but system must not cry about piracy at every possibility:

Oh, now the system must mind your delicate sensibilities lest they push you over the edge and you start pirating games angrily?

so I torrented it. thanks to piracy I was able to play the game again with only one downside - it was an english version, not russian unfortunately - Akella did a great job localizing the game for once.
so here's a blitz-question for you: was a piracy a great evil in this case and was my doing an immoral thing?

If you lose a book you like, will you go and steal another one because you've already paid for this book once? As for your question, who cares? You use one non-representative example and expect it to prove something? It's like saying "I was bleeding and was about to pass out, so I ran into a pharmacy and grabbed some medicine without paying. Thank god for theft!"

 

[Darth Roxor]

PS: wtf is up with WhiskeyWolf's posts?

Hell if I know. He doesn't make much sense too often anyway.

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

PS: wtf is up with WhiskeyWolf's posts?

Hell if I know. He doesn't make much sense too often anyway.

I live in my own small world.

 

[sqeecoo]

Bah, this thread has degenerated into a useless discussion when it should be about pressing DGaider to stop avoiding the issue (and quite rudely at that). The issue is, of course, that Bioware fucked over their customers with no damage to pirates, and have not apologized or offered support to the customers.

Regarding piracy: pirating is not nice, but I don't care. There are worse things to do. If I really like a company (Troika, Iron Tower), I'll buy the game. But with companies like Bioware, I say fuck them.

 

[Brother None]

PS: wtf is up with WhiskeyWolf's posts?

Hell if I know. He doesn't make much sense too often anyway.

I live in my own small world.

How Bentham.

 

[snowballdemon]

PS: wtf is up with WhiskeyWolf's posts?

Hell if I know. He doesn't make much sense too often anyway.

I live in my own small world.

How Bentham.

How quaint.
Also, I smell a quote pyramid.

 

[Darth Roxor]

PS: wtf is up with WhiskeyWolf's posts?

Hell if I know. He doesn't make much sense too often anyway.

I live in my own small world.

How Bentham.

How quaint.
Also, I smell a quote pyramid.

PREPOSTEROUS

 

[Vault Dweller]

Can someone give me an answer please?: I want to know why exactly someone pirating and playing a game instead of not buying it is worse than not buying it and never playing it at all.
...

Then there is the whole thing about piracy being theft of intellectual property and such.. Well, I don't know much about that; but perhaps my rampant neutrality to everything in life has dulled me to the sensation of having someone play your brainchild without first paying you for it. Personally, I could care less if someone was playing my game; if they were a fan of my games I would be disappointed in them not buying it. If they weren't a fan I could care less what they do. If they were never going to buy the game why does it matter; I had lost them from the beginning.

That's pretty much how I feel. However, I would be offended if someone downloaded my game and then started justifying his internet given right to get my game for free because it's, like, must be shared with the masses, $25 is too much and my greed should be punished, and that it's unfair of me to limit access to the game only to fat cats who can actually afford to spend 25 bucks on games when the world hunger is still a problem.

 

[pkt-zer0]

3. Go service based. Look at Blizzard. All PC games, all the time, and they don't complain about piracy one lick or have it hurt them. Why? Because they changed their business model to a service based one. You pay a fee to use their online space whether it be a monthly fee in World of Warcraft, or a once-per-different-game fee for a Battle.net access code like with Starcraft, Warcraft, Diablo (read: the CD-Key).

Excluding World of Warcraft, I was under the impression that the online playerbase was just a fraction of the total number of players.

Anyway, aimed at the "piracy = greatest enemy of PC gaming" people:
Do you really think that chopping off people's hands for committing theft by borrowing a game from a friend is the way to go? And saying anything but "yes" is just a cop-out?
Furthermore, if you put morality aside, and just look at the business side of things: if a guy spends 50$ a month on PC games and pirates stuff as well, how is he any different from the guy who spends the same amount of cash, but doesn't pirate anything?
Taking it one step further, what if the pirate spends twice as much on PC games as the other guy? He's still the one contributing to the ruination of PC gaming, after all, thinking that only the sold units count would be dumb. (Hi Jasede!)

 

[Binary]

PS: wtf is up with WhiskeyWolf's posts?

Hell if I know. He doesn't make much sense too often anyway.

I live in my own small world.

How Bentham.

How quaint.
Also, I smell a quote pyramid.

PREPOSTEROUS

ORLY?

 

[Darth Roxor]

PS: wtf is up with WhiskeyWolf's posts?

Hell if I know. He doesn't make much sense too often anyway.

I live in my own small world.

How Bentham.

How quaint.
Also, I smell a quote pyramid.

PREPOSTEROUS

ORLY?

QUITE RLY o_@

 

[Brother None]

Excluding World of Warcraft, I was under the impression that the online playerbase was just a fraction of the total number of players.

According to Gartner Group data, there are over 260 million online PC gamers
So...

Also, the questions you ask have already been answered, so why are you repeating them?

 

[Kraszu]

If they were stealing bread and giving it to the poor, I'd understand your point. We are, however, talking about an entertainment product, which, in most cases, requires a very expensive hardware setup. You aren't trying to tell me that some poor guy with his old 486 and a dial-up connection will be downloading Gothic 3 or Mass Effect, are you?

Just becouse somebody can spend 500$ every 4-5 years on hardware it does not mean that he also has extra $ to buy every games that he wants to play. Big part of gamers are also kids that play on family PC. Lowering the game prices = more copies sold - fact.

Really? Wow. Let me try this argument too! Lowering car prices - more cars sold - fact! Lowering houses prices - more houses sold - fact! Hmm, let me take it one step further... Making games free - a gazillion games distributed - fact! Wow. How could I have been so blind before...

You said that when somebody can afford "new" PC then he can afford games he wants, that argument is plain bad, and yes effect of lowering prices show it, so I am glad that you can see it now.

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

PS: wtf is up with WhiskeyWolf's posts?

Hell if I know. He doesn't make much sense too often anyway.

I live in my own small world.

How Bentham.

How quaint.
Also, I smell a quote pyramid.

PREPOSTEROUS

ORLY?

QUITE RLY o_@

How eccentric.

 

[snowballdemon]

PS: wtf is up with WhiskeyWolf's posts?

Hell if I know. He doesn't make much sense too often anyway.

I live in my own small world.

How Bentham.

How quaint.
Also, I smell a quote pyramid.

PREPOSTEROUS

ORLY?

QUITE RLY o_@

How eclectic.

there, fixed

 

[Binary]

Oh and VDweller, don't tell me it's piracy that hurts developers. You know it isn't, don't give us the "I'm a developer now, feel sorry for me" speech, mmmkay?

Are you fucking retarded? When have I ever given this speech and even argued from a developer point of view?

Can't be arsed to quote you from other pages, but it's interesting to see you portraying the immature behaviour of other codexers. I expected better from you.

So you post some stupid assumptions because you "can't be arsed" to actually read what I wrote and then blame me for my response?

Oh I've read it alright. I said I can't be arsed to quote you.

Look VD, you too have fallen prey of those who turned this topic into a piracy discussion when the topic was about DRM and copy protections. With the exception of a few, people here are ready to support your efforts as a game developer, just not big corporations' efforts at trying to hamper the rights and enjoyment of legally purchased products.

And for the record, I agree with Warren Spektor's quote. Clearly who wants to pirate a game will find a way to do so, so that's irrelevant. Blaming poor sales on piracy is a bad excuse. I wonder for example what excuse will Richard Garriot give for "his" MMORPGs (Auto Assault, TR...) to be a failure?

Piracy = bad
DRM = bad

 

[Vault Dweller]

But to cultivate one's talents do not imply they should be "marketable" talents, as in "Talents Generating Wealth".

Ah, you mean "game stealing talents". My apology.

Also, if you have cultivated your talents in a given thing for the betterment of yourself and humanity and other guy has cultivated his for the same reasons payment is not needed - Both already paid by bettering humanity in their particular ways, by cultivating their talents for all to enjoy.

I'll file that under "what a load of crap that doesn't apply to the real world".

Since "a rational being has imperfect duty to cultivate its talents" then competition is not needed, since everyone is already cultivating their talents or expected to. Competition rewards some talents more than others, and not by how much they better humanity (as if that was even measurable) but by how much wealth they generate.

The emphasis is in "Generating Wealth", not "Betterment of Humanity."

I think that you are a smart guy, Sage, so I assume that you can't be a fucking moron. Thus, I think that you are a deluded guy who read some Kant's bullshit, liked it, and is now using it as his own personal Bible that has answers to all questions.

You have to understand that Kant's ideas are flawed, deeply flawed, because they don't apply and can't exist in the real world at all. That's like Marx-Lenin bullshit. Sounds great in theory, but sadly doesn't work. The Russians had to learn it the hard way.

http://faculty.risd.edu/faculty/dkeefer ... ntcrit.htm

Here is a quote that applies to you:

"It is very easy to be lulled by this moralistic lullaby into intellectual submission to Kant's program here. And while we should not want to forego the insights into duty and its metaphysical presuppositions and retain them as some touchstone or magnetic point in guiding our actions, a commitment to these principles with fanatical consistency in the absence of deeper humane commitments to the specific or particular dignity of others and cultivated values of oneself would seem to produce moral monsters! Is it not possible for a fully Kantianized agent to feel only contempt and revulsion for all others, both generally and, wherever possible, specifically. We may be very grateful that this antipathetic individual is held in check by the dictates of reason, but such an individual is hardly the best candidate for the ideal human moral agent!"

Well... That's a valid point. But then i am just applying Kant's moral philosophy, one of the most perfect and developed, if not the most. So maybe is the rest of the world that went crazy.

Fanboism FTW.

And yes, games are not "Food" or "Air" or "Water". But denying people some fun and, leaving the specifics for other time, cultural products because they were less lucky in the "Capitalist" game is just messed up from a moral perspective.

Less lucky? How many people can't afford a 15-25 game (that's what it would cost after 6 months to a year) if they actually do have a paying job?

 

[pkt-zer0]

According to Gartner Group data, there are over 260 million online PC gamers
So...

I was wondering about numbers for Blizzard games, aggregated figures don't really shed much light on that. Got anything more specific?

Also, the questions you ask have already been answered, so why are you repeating them?

Must have missed the answers, then.

 

[Brother None]

Look VD, you too have fallen prey of those who turned this topic into a piracy discussion when the topic was about DRM and copy protections. With the exception of a few, people here are ready to support your efforts as a game developer, just not big corporations' efforts at trying to hamper the rights and enjoyment of legally purchased products.

Why are you trying to change the topic? You stated VD said something, but near as I can see he didn't, so either produce a quote or say "ok, you didn't".

I wonder for example what excuse will Richard Garriot give for "his" MMORPGs (Auto Assault, TR...) to be a failure?

Auto Assault is not a Garriott product.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Oh I've read it alright. I said I can't be arsed to quote you.

Then don't make any comments you aren't willing to back up. Just a thought.

With the exception of a few, people here are ready to support your efforts as a game developer, just not big corporations' efforts at trying to hamper the rights and enjoyment of legally purchased products.

I don't really care about that. At all. I didn't quit my day job, so if AoD is pirated and sells fuck all, I wouldn't be affected. As a player, I'm much more concerned about other developers than about me.