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Great job, Bioware!

Ander Vinz

Scholar
Joined
May 25, 2007
Messages
645
Vault Dweller said:
Did you not know that before? This is the Codex (well, used to be), not GameSpot.
I appreciate a good taste and informed opinions of people here but if I've learned something from codex it's that I shouldn't trust anyone and must decide for myself.

Will you open a bottle and try whiskey to see if the blend is up to your standards before buying it?
Wrong comparison. Even here, in "backwater commie shithole" we have bars where you can samle any drink. But I'm glad you didn't menion underwear, that would be a hard one to dodge.

There are plenty of products that you can sample before and plenty that you can't.
Have you ever heard "you can't have two portions of this sort of whiskey, you must buy the whole bottle" from barman?

In fact, only major publishers can get away with "too many expenses, so no demo, guys" shit. Small or independent companies all provide free sample of their games.
 

Lumpy

Arcane
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
8,525
Xi said:
Lumpy said:
My implicit implication is that, if a person thinks "I really like what they did with this game. I wish they made more games like this", he is much more likely to buy a game after piracy than if he thought "This game is okay. I don't give a fuck whether they make more of this though".

Your method increases risk for the publisher/investor(higher than it already is to invest 10 Million on a game), and you expect more innovation and better games out of a system that involves higher risk? That's just fucking stupid.

I guess it boils down to 10 games are made each year, and 1 of them is good, vs 100 games made a year and 10 of them are good. Which sounds better?
How the fuck does it increase risk for the publisher?
Besides, what you're saying is bullshit. You won't get innovative games out of a system that refuses to take risks, because innovation is necessarily risky. But, when successful, an innovative game will found a much stronger player base.
What will the death of a decent FPS company mean for FPS fans? Not much, since there are dozens. Now, what would it mean for Sims fans if Maxis went bankrupt?
 

Chefe

Erudite
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
4,731
I still can't believe this. Is there really a group here supporting piracy as the moral high ground? Good fucking god.

Ander Vinz said:
I don't want to argue about the whole "pirates vs. greedy publishers" theme but let me cite a specific example:

I've already torrented Mass Effect and after running through the first mission realized that in fact, this game is not for me. Not that I dislike ARPGs that much but it just doesn't appeal to me at the moment. I'd rather read a book or find a brainier game.
The question is, should have I bought the game and thrown away my money or am I a resourceful buyer who outwitted cheating publisher?

Personally I think that as a customer I have undoubtful right to try most goods before buying them. Or am I wrong?

You, as a customer, do have a right to try some goods before you buy them. Also realize that, just because you're labeled a customer, you don't have some kind of a holy status.

There is enough information out there on Mass Effect for you to determine if you would enjoy it or not. Screenshots, videos, detailed gameplay information, it's all available, from both people who hate it and people who like it. You'd rather read a book or find a brainier game? Where did you get the idea in the first place that Mass Effect challenged your mind?
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2004
Messages
5,673
Ander Vinz said:
Wrong comparison. Even here, in "backwater commie shithole" we have bars where you can samle any drink. But I'm glad you didn't menion underwear, that would be a hard one to dodge.

Bars a) don't sell by the bottle (selling bottles of strong liquor at bars is actually illegal in many countries) and b) sell a package of service and good, with you paying at least as much for the service (including the location, atmosphere, etc.) as for the good.

So...wrong counterpoint? Say VD isn't talking about bars, but liquor stores, then the comparison would work.
 

Ander Vinz

Scholar
Joined
May 25, 2007
Messages
645
Brother None said:
So...wrong counterpoint?
I just wanted to say that a willing person can find many creative ways to get information on something.
Ninja-edit: sneak-preview, for example

@Angler: do not aggregate me with pirates. I can always take my friend's copy to try the game if no hacked version available.
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2004
Messages
5,673
MaskedMan said:
How does Cleve feel about piracy?

He doesn't have to worry about it, remember? He has the fool-proof anti-piracy system: anyone who desires to play the non-existent Grimoire has to show an IQ certificate certifying an IQ of at least 125.
 

WalterKinde

Scholar
Joined
Dec 27, 2006
Messages
524
Ander Vinz said:
Brother None said:
So...wrong counterpoint?
I just wanted to say that a willing person can find many creative ways to get information on something.
Ninja-edit: sneak-preview, for example

@Angler: do not aggregate me with pirates. I can always take my friend's copy to try the game if no hacked version available.
Not if its Mass Effect or Bioshock , the limited installs via the drm will probably prevent your friend from lending it to you, of course this is only for the PC version if he has the 360 version he can lend it to you without worrying that you will use up one of his two remaining installs.
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
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Messages
5,673
WalterKinde said:
Not if its Mass Effect or Bioshock , the limited installs via the drm will probably prevent your friend from lending it to you, of course this is only for the PC version if he has the 360 version he can lend it to you without worrying that you will use up one of his two remaining installs.

Eh? Maybe I misunderstood their install policies, but isn't the idea that they limit simultaneous installs, as in the game can not be installed on more than 3 computers simultaneously. Pretty sure one of the grumblings about BioShock's DRM was that it sometimes failed to give back on "install point" when uninstalled.
 

pkt-zer0

Scholar
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
Messages
594
Ander Vinz said:
@Angler: do not aggregate me with pirates. I can always take my friend's copy to try the game if no hacked version available.
Actually, "taking your friend's copy" is piracy, the sort of which Mass Effect's DRM is aiming to prevent.
 

WalterKinde

Scholar
Joined
Dec 27, 2006
Messages
524
Eh? Maybe I misunderstood their install policies, but isn't the idea that they limit simultaneous installs, as in the game can not be installed on more than 3 computers simultaneously. Pretty sure one of the grumblings about BioShock's DRM was that it sometimes failed to give back on "install point" when uninstalled.
As far as i know , its like bioshock's drm, each install on a "new computer" counts as an install, meaning if you dualboot between vista and xp even if its the same pc hardware just different partitions installing on xp and vista will use up 2 installs.
Now i don't yet know if the install procedure is as draconian as bioshock's where if you installed the game in the admin acct, trying to launch it on a different profile (example your brother logs in to his profile and then tries to run the game) in the same OS would result in the use of an install.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
sqeecoo said:
All you do is boldly claim...
It's a university article/outline of a course written by a philosophy professor. *I* boldly claim nothing at this point.

That does not even approach being an argument or criticism, but amounts to saying "but that is OBVIOUSLY stupid!". I hate such "arguments". Nothing is "obviously" or "evidently" true, and if you are going to claim why something is "hardly the best", please explain why you think so.
Send your complaints to D. Keefer
http://faculty.risd.edu/faculty/dkeefer ... /index.htm

Is this guy really saying that being sincere is immoral...
There is a difference between being sincere and being, well, a dick.

If you disagree, please note that the codex (and your reviews, for instance), is full of such immorality.
The Codex and my reviews in particular reviewed games, which isn't the same as telling a person all you think of him, which is subjective by definition. Criticizing Oblivion is one thing. Running into Todd Howard and taking this opportunity to tell him that he's a fucking moron who should be brutally raped is quite another.

You are a nice guy VD, but if you are going to present criticism of great philosophers, please make sure it's not laughable.
Is it though?
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,288
Vault Dweller said:
Ander Vinz said:
I don't want to argue about the whole "pirates vs. greedy publishers" theme but let me cite a specific example:

I've already torrented Mass Effect and after running through the first mission realized that in fact, this game is not for me. Not that I dislike ARPGs that much but it just doesn't appeal to me at the moment. I'd rather read a book or find a brainier game.
Did you not know that before? This is the Codex (well, used to be), not GameSpot.

The question is, should have I bought the game and thrown away my money or am I a resourceful buyer who outwitted cheating publisher?
You shouldn't have bought the game and shouldn't have torrented it.

Personally I think that as a customer I have undoubtful right to try most goods before buying them. Or am I wrong?
Will you open a bottle and try whiskey to see if the blend is up to your standards before buying it? Will you try new yogurt before buying it? There are plenty of products that you can sample before and plenty that you can't. If you are a cautious consumer don't buy the latter or wait for reviews/informed opinions.

2 problems with this.

1. One cannot COPY a bottle of whiskey at neglible expense to offer for sampling. If it were possible, such samples likely WOULD be available. Likewise, one would certainly manufacture their own Audi if they could do so without cost. That the game industry finds the fact that their product can be endlessly copied at no cost to be a problem rather than a boon is laughable.

2. Video games are drowning in hype, and even if they weren't, finding someone with similiar taste in them is quite difficult. The fact that this is the fault of publishers and developers gives me warm fuzzies when I piss them off, but irrelevant to the problem.

Between these two facts, I can discern the quality of the game illegally, but not legally, without paying. Yes, the company makes less money this way. They also make less money if I don't send them every 3rd paycheck I get. How much money they get from me is something left in my hands. Your assertion is that it should not be. Maybe so. However, it is not reality, and I refuse to abide by a fantasy for the sake of nothing at all, which is exactly what would benefit from me buying everything before trying it.

Xi mentioned the outcome of being 9 crap games and 1 good game vs 90 and 10 with and without people paying for crap games. However, the likely outcome would probably be closer to 7 and 3 vs 95 and 5. Given that I can't pay for 5 games per company, let alone the 30 I would need to buy to find those 5, That circumstance only benefits a pirate. I'd much rather pirate 10 and buy 3.

Edit: If you're going to bitch about me just not being dilligent enough in reading reiveiws, keep this in mind: Reading a review of a game =! happy fun time. If I'm to be expected to sift through reviews on a game for 3 hours it should cost 3 hours worth of pay less. No more likely to happen than free whiskey or omnipotent control of one's IP, but perfectly justifiable.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
Ander Vinz said:
Vault Dweller said:
Did you not know that before? This is the Codex (well, used to be), not GameSpot.
I appreciate a good taste and informed opinions of people here but if I've learned something from codex it's that I shouldn't trust anyone and must decide for myself.
By stealing it? You've learned quite a lot, young padawan.

Will you open a bottle and try whiskey to see if the blend is up to your standards before buying it?
Wrong comparison. Even here, in "backwater commie shithole" we have bars where you can samle any drink. But I'm glad you didn't menion underwear, that would be a hard one to dodge.
You pay for sampling, do you not? You pay a highly disproportionate amount, btw. In gaming context that would be an equivalent of paying 10 bucks for a demo. For the record, I've never described Russia as a "backwater commie shithole", I quoted skyway.

Also, any drink? I doubt it. Most popular/affordable? Definitely. Anyway, you can also sample games here by renting them for a weekend, but I don't think that that apply to you guys yet.

In fact, only major publishers can get away with "too many expenses, so no demo, guys" shit. Small or independent companies all provide free sample of their games.
Nobody is arguing that the current system is good and perfect. The current argument is "pirating games is my right and a sacred duty!" vs "piracy is theft, so shut the fuck up already".
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
Angler said:
I still can't believe this. Is there really a group here supporting piracy as the moral high ground? Good fucking god.
Mind-fucking-blowing.
 

Binary

Liturgist
Joined
Jun 30, 2003
Messages
901
Location
Trinsic
Brother None said:
Binary said:
Look VD, you too have fallen prey of those who turned this topic into a piracy discussion when the topic was about DRM and copy protections. With the exception of a few, people here are ready to support your efforts as a game developer, just not big corporations' efforts at trying to hamper the rights and enjoyment of legally purchased products.

Why are you trying to change the topic? You stated VD said something, but near as I can see he didn't, so either produce a quote or say "ok, you didn't".

*Sigh* I doubt VD needs you to speak on his behalf. Anyway VD used indirect remarks that really gave away that he was joining the discussion to "protect the developers":

Vault Dweller said:
He's a developer. An imbecile would understand that Dave is no more responsible for the DRM decision than you or me.

Vault Dweller said:
You want to talk about developers? Let's talk about Troika, Origin, Looking Glass, Sir-Tech. Let's look at pictures of their houses.

Later made even more clear with:

Vault Dweller said:
I would be offended if someone downloaded my game and then started justifying his internet given right to get my game for free because it's, like, must be shared with the masses,

VD is obviously entitled to his opinion and I even agree with him in some extent (in particular in regards to piracy) - and if he hadn't been so... "codexish" I would have explained where I disagree with him.

In particular, and regarding the topic at hand, I do not know nor care if David Gaider had anything to do with the DRM on Mass Effect. The fact is, David came into the topic "trolling" about piracy, then refusing to answer legitimate questions about DRM, and this suddenly turned into a piracy war.

Brother None said:
Binary said:
I wonder for example what excuse will Richard Garriot give for "his" MMORPGs (Auto Assault, TR...) to be a failure?

Auto Assault is not a Garriott product.

Notice the inverted commas around "his". It was another failed NCSoft product
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
DamnedRegistrations said:
Between these two facts, I can discern the quality of the game illegally, but not legally, without paying.

Angler said:
There is enough information out there on Mass Effect for you to determine if you would enjoy it or not. Screenshots, videos, detailed gameplay information, it's all available, from both people who hate it and people who like it. You'd rather read a book or find a brainier game? Where did you get the idea in the first place that Mass Effect challenged your mind?
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
Binary said:
*Sigh* I doubt VD needs you to speak on his behalf. Anyway VD used indirect remarks that really gave away that he was joining the discussion to "protect the developers"
I did. But you've assumed that I did it to protect my own interests as a developer not because I have an opinion as a gamer on the subject.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,288
Hey, VD, I got a bridge to sell you. I can give you all the detailed information you need to make a sound purchase, I promise.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
The analogy doesn't work as the focus here is not the quality of the bridge but the proof of ownership.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,288
Suppose I owned a model of a bridge and advertised it as a full sized thing? Like, say, a game advertised as being MASSive in depth while actually only being an immitation?
 

Xi

Arcane
Joined
Jan 28, 2006
Messages
6,101
Location
Twilight Zone
DamnedRegistrations said:
Suppose I owned a model of a bridge and advertised it as a full sized thing? Like, say, a game advertised as being MASSive in depth while actually only being an immitation?

I'm pretty sure VD could ask other sources to find out if you were full of shit or not? Also, I'm pretty sure this was Dgaider's point back on page 2 or 3. Watch a video, read a couple of reviews, browse some forums and get user impressions, etc.

Just because hype works on you does not mean it would work on VD.
 

Fez

Erudite
Joined
May 18, 2004
Messages
7,954
That reminds me of the guy who sold cardboard model PS2s on eBay years back. Hilarious (if you didn't buy one).
 

WhiskeyWolf

RPG Codex Polish Car Thief
Staff Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
14,845
Xi said:
Just because hype works on you does not mean it would work on VD.
He's only human.
 

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