KickStarter Grim Dawn

[Martius]

bow

I guess crossbows are cheating?

 

[Commissar Draco]

bow

I guess crossbows are cheating?

Crossbows have sense of possessing same animation as riffle and not to mention than unlike bow crossbows were widely in use even in Victorian period.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbow

Nobody trained with bow in Europe after muskets went in wide use.

 

[Serus]

I think you guys just like the idea of liking the setting and that's clouding your judgement, because the reality is that there's nothing Lovecraftian about it except on a very superficial level. Two eldritch horror factions and one of them is generic zombies and the other is generic demons. FFS we even see a slice of the Chthonian home planes and it's nothing but an uninspired hell-like area. There's nothing weird or Lovecraftian about these. Then, after stripping away the Aetherials and Chthonians what do we have left: a setting in which we have giant vermin, goblins Groble, orcs Mistborn, ghost and spooky skeletons. We don't even get a feel of the post-apocalypticness because all we visit are rural areas which are, for the most part, untouched. We should've gotten a whole act of romping through the capital city to really get a feel of the damage that has been done, but, no. The setting is generic junk and there's no point in trying to defend it just because it pretends to have a slight Lovecraftian stink to it. If they were serious about making a game with a Lovecraftian setting then they would've gotten something closer to Bloodborne.

Strange that you wrote about clouding judgement because i said the almost the same in my post except one thing. I think the general idea for the setting (post-apo+lovercraft) is good, the execution is poor (especially the monsters). Of curse it could only be superficially lovercraftian even in best case scenario - what do you expect in a diabloclone ? It can only be superficial and shallow, the genre prevents anything deep imo. Any serious attempt at Lovercraftian diablo-clone could only end in a spectacular disaster. The problem with Grim Dawn however is that even on this superficial level it fails miserably. The most glaring reason are imho the supposedly lovercraftian monsters, Chtonians and Aethereals' design is in most part very uninspired (and every other type of monsters is even worse - again as you said it yourself) And the lore we have about those two central races/factions is not much better. There is a note in fort Ikon where a possessed by an aetheral (the captain you have to kill i think ?) laments how humans could build so many weapons against themselves... i can't imagine more banal and more misplaced comment than this.
The idea for the setting itself is not "generic junk" (that would be someting with for exemple vampires...), the end result is. Non completely junk mind you, just mostly. There are a few cool elements like the steampowered warmachines, some cool pieces of lore about the apocalypse itself found in notes, etc... but way too little among too much generic stuff. Crate just failed to make the whole more interesting or lovercraftian even superficially.

TL;DR: As i mentioned half-jokingly before, way too few tentacles to make good (even if shallow) lovercraftian game.

 

[Lacrymas]

Like I said, the interesting part is that the dominant religion is the Cult. At least that's my impression and they've presented a lot of different reasons why people join the Cult, so it's not a moustache-twirling organization. There can't be a "Lovecraftian" setting in an action game because being able to fight against the creatures is already not-Lovecraftian. That's why Bloodborne is also not-Lovecraftian. The aesthetic of tentacles and ancient monsters isn't Lovecraft's invention, what he did is take that concept from previous writers, threw in a Nietzschean "God is Dead" (in a literal sense) philosophy and some already-contemporary science of the vastness of the universe, then BAM! instant horror. Being able to stand against such creatures is counter to that idea. All of Lovecraft's protagonists end up dead or insane and that's the point.

What the GD team need to do is flesh out the Cult and the non-transitory nature of Ch'thon, drawing parallels to the "universal" and "everlasting" anamnesis of the Crucifixion and Sacrificial Death of Christ and go from there.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Like I said, the interesting part is that the dominant religion is the Cult. At least that's my impression and they've presented a lot of different reasons why people join the Cult, so it's not a moustache-twirling organization. There can't be a "Lovecraftian" setting in an action game because being able to fight against the creatures is already not-Lovecraftian. That's why Bloodborne is also not-Lovecraftian. The aesthetic of tentacles and ancient monsters isn't Lovecraft's invention, what he did is take that concept from previous writers, threw in a Nietzschean "God is Dead" (in a literal sense) philosophy and some already-contemporary science of the vastness of the universe, then BAM! instant horror. Being able to stand against such creatures is counter to that idea. All of Lovecraft's protagonists end up dead or insane and that's the point.

What the GD team need to do is flesh out the Cult and the non-transitory nature of Ch'thon, drawing parallels to the "universal" and "everlasting" anamnesis of the Crucifixion and Sacrificial Death of Christ and go from there.

This is where I disagree with you. I never bought into the line of thinking that something is automatically not Lovecraftian if you can fight against monsters. The very essence of it is existential horror and that feeling is never lost in Bloodborne even when you are able to slaughter all manner of horrible monsters. The moment where you realize that the world doesn't work the way you thought it did, and that it is completely indifferent to your cries. That is what it is at its very core. When I brought up Bloodborne I didn't mean the aesthetic, I meant the pacing of the story and theme, going from being a simlpe hunter of werewolves and other halloween spookies to the sudden realization that there was so much more going on behind the curtains. FFS Cthulhu gets his head smashed like a pumpkin in The Call of Cthulhu, but that didn't mean it was the end of the nightmare for Thurston.

Anyhoo, we can sit down and discuss what Crate should do to improve the games setting and story, but the bottom line is that they need to remake it from scratch and just not half ass it the second time. There are just too many problems with it. The Aetherial and Chthonian representation is inequal to the point where both are mostly undeveloped and one of the factions doesn't even get some form of resolution. Chthonian cultists are moustache twirling villains, but they have a lot of normal people joining them because they have nowhere else to go either. That doesn't make them any less evil. As for the Aetherials the only thing I got to say about them is ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Well, that and the fact that I liked the boss fight at the Fort Ikon armory. That guy should've been an Act boss fight and not some pissy shit like Darius Cronley.

 

[Lacrymas]

This is where I disagree with you. I never bought into the line of thinking that something is automatically not Lovecraftian if you can fight against monsters. The very essence of it is existential horror and that feeling is never lost in Bloodborne even when you are able to slaughter all manner of horrible monsters. The moment where you realize that the world doesn't work the way you thought it did, and that it is completely indifferent to your cries. That is what it is at its very core. When I brought up Bloodborne I didn't mean the aesthetic, I meant the pacing of the story and theme, going from being a simlpe hunter of werewolves and other halloween spookies to the sudden realization that there was so much more going on behind the curtains. FFS Cthulhu gets his head smashed like a pumpkin in The Call of Cthulhu, but that didn't mean it was the end of the nightmare for Thurston.

I don't mean fighting them in a physical sense. Both Call of Cthulhu and the Dunwich Horror have the protagonist/s physically fighting against Cthulhu/the Shoggoth (though Cthulhu just began reforming immediately). Their influence and their very existence can't be fought though and that's what drives people insane. This also doesn't mean that mowing down hordes of eldritch abominations doesn't devalue their threat. I suppose Bloodborne is Lovecraftian in a sense of cosmic terror, so I'll give you that.

No plot elements go anywhere in GD and that's a recurring problem that I've been noticing for a while now in games. Just having them is pointless and that's not what a written story is. They have to *lead somewhere* and tie together in a logical completeness. It simply isn't satisfying otherwise.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Agreed. I know many people will argue that "oh it's just an ARPG who cares about the setting and story", except that the setting was a selling point for the game, so I'm going to hold it against Crate if they can't do a better job with it.

 

[Lacrymas]

The story and setting is what gives meaning to a game, no matter the genre. It also shapes us as human beings by virtue of being art and that's what art does. It really isn't surprising that we care so much about stories and settings in games; and we praise games which have exceptional writing. Saying "I don't care about setting and story" is either ignorant or just low standards.

 

[MrJohnson]

fighting against lovecraft monsters = ok
fighting against lovecraft gods/godike beeings = not ok

cthulu, or other beeings like it, should remain something beyond humans. their "little" advocates should be fightable in their physical form though.

So I genreally think fighting against cthonians is ok (such a large demon like the endboss might be turning a blind eye), but "killing" cthon himself should not be possible.

Remember that the whole thing about lovecraft is, that all those godlike beeings are not primarly a threat because they have sharp claws or fangs or teh evil magic destruction lasers, it is because they are not understandable to the human psyche. They think/work/behave in a way not comprehendable to the mind of a human. How can you fight a thing that your mind can't even grasp?

 

[Renevent]

Old Arkovia getting a face lift:

http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32443

Spoiler

Grim Misadventures is here. Last time we previewed some of the changes coming your way with Build 31, very likely to be the last big update before Grim Dawn’s release. Nearly every aspect of the game is being touched upon in some way and the changelog is vying for a new record in “Longest Changelog”. The Build itself has just entered preliminary testing as we work out bugs and continue to implement the necessary changes.

We also mentioned that some areas of the world are going to see significant changes, and we showed you a couple views of the Burrwitch Outskirts and the Four Hills in Old Arkovia. Another area that is seeing major revisions is the Arkovian Ruins. We always felt that we could do more with this dungeon set, bring out more of what defines Arkovian society and really distinguish this area as more than just a set of crumbling walls. To that end, our artists have revisited these assets to create something that truly defines Arkovia before its devastating fall to the necromancer’s curse.

Today we would like to show you a few shots of how the changes are turning out:

 

[gestalt11]

fighting against lovecraft monsters = ok
fighting against lovecraft gods/godike beeings = not ok

cthulu, or other beeings like it, should remain something beyond humans. their "little" advocates should be fightable in their physical form though.

So I genreally think fighting against cthonians is ok (such a large demon like the endboss might be turning a blind eye), but "killing" cthon himself should not be possible.

Remember that the whole thing about lovecraft is, that all those godlike beeings are not primarly a threat because they have sharp claws or fangs or teh evil magic destruction lasers, it is because they are not understandable to the human psyche. They think/work/behave in a way not comprehendable to the mind of a human. How can you fight a thing that your mind can't even grasp?

Its kind of funny that people box it all into lovecraftian or whatever. Its a known fact that Robert E. Howard and Lovecraft shared a cosmology. There are letters of them actively encouraging each other to use various paranormal entities in each others work and to make the two settings appear to as two eras of the (mostly) same world.

The fact is that an ARPG simply doesn't fit that well with lovecraft's stories, other than something like "The Dream Quest for Unkown Kadeth". The idea that you can't beat the monsters is kind of off. A human could certainly fight a Deep One. But lovecraft was writing horror (usually) so the main protagonists are not meant to be empowered. However in Unknown Kadeth the main protagongist actually beats all sorts of various things trying to stop him, but it still worlds away from Nyarlathotep and you are always thinking how is the Crawling Chaos gonna fuck him?

On the other hand Conan certainly fits an ARPG quite well and has a number of themes/entities shared (and planned) with Lovecraft but even still Conan is a human with mortal constraints. He doesn't shoot lightning bolts out of his ass like many characters. Conan is low fantasy, he is hero and even quite exceptional but still just flesh and blood and most magic is not that overt or common. Lovecraft most characters are just flat out normal people.

The main reason there is a problem lining up your sights is that Grim Dawn (and most all ARPGs) are high fantasy bordering on comic book super hero. Sure there is a Barbarian class in Diablo 2, but that shit ain't Conan. Conan didn't leap around like he was the frigging Hulk or play dizzy dizzy dinosaur with an axe.

 

[Ivan]

that new art looks beautiful. particularly the last dungeon

 

[Hobo Elf]

The art is coming along quite well, but I'm more excited that they're redesigning the areas as well since Act 2 was a kind of boring romp. I wonder if they'll have time to re-do Act 3 while they're at it?

 

[Renevent]

Yeah, other than the undercity/sot I felt Act 2 was the weakest and kinda a slog to get through. Maybe not story wise, but thematically I feel like Act I and Act II should be switched around. Makes more sense to have to deal with local bandits and shitty wild life 1st, then move on the the undead and more mythical forces at work. I have no idea what the story in Grim Dawn actually says about it, and probably there's justification in there, but it ruins the buildup/progression aspect in my view...just seems wrong/off.

Then again maybe I should actually read the story/dialogs in the game heh.

 

[HanoverF]

Act 2 The cliffs of dullness, the beehives of boredom, the caverns of comatose

 

[United Nations]

The art is coming along quite well, but I'm more excited that they're redesigning the areas as well since Act 2 was a kind of boring romp. I wonder if they'll have time to re-do Act 3 while they're at it?

Act 2 sucked in Diablo II too, so what?

 

[United Nations]

Build 31 = Final Release, mirite?

 

[Renevent]

Well, it's what will be considered going from early access/beta and "released" but they will continue to patch and add features. For instance, some of the kickstarter features (survival mode) will come after release as a free update.

 

[Haba]

Kinda afraid to load up my old soldier build and see how badly he has been raped with the nerf bat. M-muh force wave!

 

[Hobo Elf]

I haven't seen any force wave builds in more than a year, so, yeah.

 

[Aeschylus]

Soldier is still the most powerful mastery by a good ways though. You probably won't have much trouble with a bit of tweaking.

 

[kangaroodev]

I liked Titan's Quest and Torchlight 2 a lot and this looks similar, how would you compare grim dawn to the previous two? This game looks more complete now since I've last heard about it, might as well give it a try some day.

 

[Ivan]

It's the successor to the former, i.e. it allows you to combine 2 classes to create unique hybrids. It also features loot that grants you abilities that you otherwise wouldn't have access to.

Combat is much more cathartic, esp melee. It's far more complex and interesting than Torchlight 2, considering the small amount of abilities you could have at any point and time.

Most of us here have probably sunk 100+ hours on the "unfinished" game.

 

[da_rays]

Pretty much what Ivan said , and would also point out how many builds the game can offer ( I may be wrong , but LOTS of place to fiddle and make various build even wit the same 2 class ) . After a pets shaman / occultist , demonolist/Occultist , im curretnly working on a 2H shaman , still have Soldier and Nightblade class to go through, All and all , if you liked TL2 , TQ and PoEx , I think you ll love this one. One of the few Diabloesque game that dont feed you boringness too quickly. If I had something to say about the game itself ( not gameplay ) ive founded act II a bit slower than the other, but it pointed me toward a bit more Lore reading. Its not spectacular , but at least its interesting.

 

[kangaroodev]

If it's far more complex/interesting than TL2 then it's just great, because I loved that. I know that it's odd but I generally play these types of games singleplayer, so the more builds to experiment with the better, 100 hours of fun for an unfinished game is quite something.