Grimoire Thread

[Danthar]

It's interesting to see how people agree for about 95% and aim their spotlights júst so that the differences get magnified a hundred-fold, giving the appearance of opposition.

Examples:

"No rules": Game has to have rules, since it's code executed by a machine. There's literally nothing happening that isn't following rules written down (even if they were not as intended they were still left in (bugs/exploits are still rules)).

"No balance": Game has to have sóme balance, otherwise you'd better play pachinko, which is what it would end up as. Your starting weapon does 1d4 damage and your Caliburnus does (not the real amount, it's about the general idea) 5d6. That's already balance.
If Grimoire had weapon damage that was distributed purely randomly on weapons so one starting char could start with 10d10 and another with 1d2 that would not be great. It would also not be according to the dev's wishes, as is obvious from how the game is made. With balance in mind.

"Creativity, charm, soul": A game with these feels so much better. There's no way people who can notice these ephemeral qualities don't enjoy it (might even enjoy it subconsciously).


So to sum it up, you all basically agree, except that the balance part is 'mostly fine' for one, and 'definitely needs improvement' for the other. On the axis of balance that's maybe one person's '65% balanced is fine' versus another's '80%-balanced is a minimum'.
It's not a 0% versus 100% opposition. Those two positions don't even exist.


I am all for soul/charm/creativity, and I am loving Grimoire. I really appreciate the lack of hand-holding and possibility to get screwed and having to reload. And all those things. I love learning a whole new world not only in lore/outward appearance but in the core, through monster placement, level design, game mechanic design, rules and freedom of rules.
At the same time, I'm waiting to play since the developer says he'll improve things, and I'd like to experience those improvements when I go through.
And also because I really want to experience as much as I can and the addition of whole maps sounds awesome

(off-topic: how does one get the Developer tag? I would like one (and yes I am a dev))

 

[Brancaleone]

This is fucking cool, imo. Limiting oneself because it "breaks reality" is stupid as fuck.

Maybe I should explain myself better. When I think about what passes for '80 - '90 'creativity', I think 'Tyrannosaurs in F14' from Hobbes' perspective.

 

[DashiDMV]

I was going to weigh in on the situation but I realized the time could be spent playing Grimoire.

Also Goldenbabygiveaways will be back with a special Labor Day giveaway. One winner graciously returned his copy as he had received a backer key and did not want to be greedy which will be added to the haul.

 

[Latro]

We need a "bold" sequel to Wizardry, but it can't be Strangers in Sword City, Elminage: Gothic, Generation Xth or any other JRPG

Grimoire is a spiritual sequel to Wiz 7 though, what the hell does any of that have to do with Grimoire?

 

[Lady_Error]

The best advice to give someone new to the game:

1. Make sure you have two warriors up front with as much HP as you can get.
2. Make sure that when you roll chars, you only select the ones with 25+ bonus points, and put all of those into HP.

That makes it nicely playable.

Berserkers are better than Warriors due to Lethal Blow alone. Extra HP may make sense for the two on the front, but only for the first couple levels. If you can survive that, then putting extra points into attibutes is better in the long run (SPD especially).

Also, what everyone should know is that unarmed attacks in the beginning are often much better than the stick weapons you begin with. 3D4 vs 1D4. And use the special abilities of some classes, eg. Mindflay or Firebreath. Then the beginning is easy.

 

[mondblut]

I dunno there are plenty of 25+ years old games that are genuinely shit.

Too late, should have said that 25 years ago.

Why?

Because judging a 25 years old game by today standarts is retarded, duh. And that's what you'll be ultimately doing, unless you actually were there 25 years ago, and decided to hide in a cave ever since.

A plenty of old games were shit indeed, but they were recognized as such by their contemporaries.

 

[Baff]

2. Endgame boss is way overpowered, I had to cheese the fight. Reason: Your chars should have been level 20, not level 10.

Well, if it was endgame boss it was ok

I don't mean the final boss, just bosses from the last 25% of the game.

 

[Efe]

and why cant we hold them to todays standards? it is a review for people right here right now or maybe the future generation of rpg players, not people that were interested in the game 25 years ago

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

I dunno there are plenty of 25+ years old games that are genuinely shit.

Too late, should have said that 25 years ago.

Why?

Because judging a 25 years old game by today standarts is retarded, duh.

It's actually not. There are plenty of 25+ years old movies that are worth watching today, even thought the technology today is far more advanced. There are 25+ years old games that are worth playing today, and there are games that are not. Trying to find out which are which is by no means pointless.

A plenty of old games were shit indeed, but they were recognized as such by their contemporaries.

Not really. There are plenty of games that were well received in the past, yet there's little reason to play them today. Unlike titles that had stood the test of time.

 

[SymbolicFrank]

The best advice to give someone new to the game:

1. Make sure you have two warriors up front with as much HP as you can get.
2. Make sure that when you roll chars, you only select the ones with 25+ bonus points, and put all of those into HP.

That makes it nicely playable.

Berserkers are better than Warriors due to Lethal Blow alone. Extra HP may make sense for the two on the front, but only for the first couple levels. If you can survive that, then putting extra points into attibutes is better in the long run (SPD especially).

Also, what everyone should know is that unarmed attacks in the beginning are often much better than the stick weapons you begin with. 3D4 vs 1D4. And use the special abilities of some classes, eg. Mindflay or Firebreath. Then the beginning is easy.

That's for power grognards, not beginners. Especially because it has been 20 years since these games were common.

 

[SymbolicFrank]

Btw, does anyone knows what Sawyer thinks of it?

 

[Lady_Error]

The best advice to give someone new to the game:

1. Make sure you have two warriors up front with as much HP as you can get.
2. Make sure that when you roll chars, you only select the ones with 25+ bonus points, and put all of those into HP.

That makes it nicely playable.

Berserkers are better than Warriors due to Lethal Blow alone. Extra HP may make sense for the two on the front, but only for the first couple levels. If you can survive that, then putting extra points into attibutes is better in the long run (SPD especially).

Also, what everyone should know is that unarmed attacks in the beginning are often much better than the stick weapons you begin with. 3D4 vs 1D4. And use the special abilities of some classes, eg. Mindflay or Firebreath. Then the beginning is easy.

That's for power grognards, not beginners. Especially because it has been 20 years since these games were common.

It makes the game easier in the beginning, so yes, it's for beginners. And if a beginner wastes his extra points on HP when he doesn't have to, it will make it more difficult later in the game if he can't keep up with the speed of monsters.

 

[SymbolicFrank]

Well, at least they will get to the later game, instead of giving up out of frustration.

 

[mondblut]

It's actually not. There are plenty of 25+ years old movies that are worth watching today, even thought the technology today is far more advanced. There are 25+ years old games that are worth playing today, and there are games that are not. Trying to find out which are which is by no means pointless.

Hardly anything changed in movies for the past 25 years. Games from 25 years ago are matching Interbellum cinema if you insist on making the comparison. When they just got sound and some even shaken the world with Technicolor.

Regardless, if a 25 years old game is worth playing because "it's as good as games of today", it's probably an awful game. Games of today are shit reference point.

Not really. There are plenty of games that were well received in the past, yet there's little reason to play them today. Unlike titles that had stood the test of time.

Bullshit. There is no such thing as "test of time". Stuff is either good, or it is bad. The only thing that changes is the auditory (and usually for worse).

 

[Moonrise]

Grimoire dares to be itself. That's what separates the legendary from the forgettable. Design-by-committee products, digestible as they are, aren't the stuff of campfire tales. They come and they go. To review the game in a vacuum is a disservice.

 

[mondblut]

Btw, does anyone knows what Sawyer thinks of it?

He was probably hospitalized with a seizure midway through character creation.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Hardly anything changed in movies for the past 25 years. Games from 25 years ago are matching Interbellum cinema if you insist on making the comparison. When they just got sound and some even shaken the world with Technicolor.

The advent of CGI effects changed a lot in terms of movie making, especially when it comes to genres like Fantasy, Horror and Sci-fi. Also, yes there are Interbellum movies still worth watching today.

Regardless, if a 25 years old game is worth playing because "it's as good as games of today", it's probably an awful game.

Yes, game is awful, because it's good. Brilliant argument there.

Bullshit. There is no such thing as "test of time". Stuff is either good, or it is bad. The only thing that changes is the auditory (and usually for worse).

Not true. There are games that relied on shiny graphics and gimmicks, which might've amazed contemporary audience, yet now are seen for the mediocre garbage they were.

 

[SymbolicFrank]

There is only one outstanding producer of horror movies: John Carpenter. Better CGI has not changed that yet, and his movies are still very watchable.

 

[Dorateen]

Wisdom from E. Gary Gygax:

The Game

Approaches to playing Advanced Dungeons & Dragons

A few brief words are necessary to insure that the reader has actually obtained a game form which he or she desires. Of the two approaches to hobby games today, one is best defined as the realism-simulation school and the other as the game school. AD&D is assuredly an adherent of the latter school. It does not stress any realism (in the author’s opinion an absurd effort at best considering the topic!) It does little to attempt to simulate anything either. Advanced Dungeons & Dragons is first and foremost a game for the fun and enjoyment of those who seek to use imagination and creativity. This is not to say that where it does not interfere with the flow of the game that the highest degree of realism hasn’t been attempted, but neither is a serious approach to play discouraged. In all cases, however, the reader should understand that AD&D is designed to be an amusing and diverting pastime, something which can fill a few hours or consume endless days, as the participants desire, but in no case something to be taken too seriously. For fun, excitement, and captivating fantasy, AD&D is unsurpassed. As a realistic simulation of things from the realm of make-believe, or even as a reflection of medieval or ancient warfare or culture or society, it can be deemed only as a dismal failure. Readers who seek the latter must search elsewhere. Those who desire to create and populate imaginary worlds with larger-than-life heroes and villains, who seek relaxation with a fascinating game, and who generally believe games should be fun, not work, will hopefully find this system to their taste.

Grimoire invites us into the world of Hyperborea. As someone who rolled their first Dungeons & Dragons character thirty-four years ago, I can appreciate what Grimoire has accomplished. I have always been enthralled by the game's opening load screen, with the photo of a hard cover reference book declaring: Grimoire Roleplaying System, an Adventure for 1 - 8 players. The accompanying miniatures, the dice, the mapped-out graph paper and pencil.

This is what Grimoire represents, the realization of tabletop roleplaying in a digitalized environment. Like the classic titles of the 1980's and early 90's, it recognizes its heritage. I have no intention to rush through a campaign of this magnitude, whether eighty hours or a hundred, condensed into one or two weeks. I will savor this experience slowly, enjoying future installments, for seemingly endless days.

 

[bataille]

There is only one outstanding producer of horror movies: John Carpenter. Better CGI has not changed that yet, and his movies are still very watchable.

Jeez, man, if you like Carpenter this much, you should find some time and research the state of horror today. Don't deprave yourself of so many good things.

 

[Roguey]

Btw, does anyone knows what Sawyer thinks of it?

Hangs around in the badgame Grimoire thread but hasn't played.

 

[Viata]

badgame

Would be?

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

incoming Sawyer's Mod

 

[DarKPenguiN]

This whole thread is going full retard and now most of the codexains I actually respect are all arguing- Should have known this peace would not last =/

The cake was a lie...A fucking lie!

I think Mondbluts mini-manifest on RPGs was great but I also think felip makes a great point about the last few years bringing us many great RPGs, or at the very least ending the drought we were in. When I first started lurking the codex there was literally nothing decent in gaming that I liked, much less RPGs- Now, the past few years Ive played alot of great games that I personally find fun. I think we're approaching another heyday myself , with self publishing and cheaper dev tools its allowing indies and even single people to get creative again and imho we're starting to see that. We're getting alot of trash too but if you can separate the wheat from the chaff theres really alot of great games to play these last few years.

Cleve is being cleve still (did we expect anything different?) but imho hes picked the wrong battle with someone who didnt deserve it- But cleves gunna cleve. That aside Cleve is also being one of the best devs out there with patches and fixes coming at an amazing rate (one of the reasons Im waiting for v2) and however you want to spin it in your mind its not fair to review everything right now regardless of if its called release or EA.

Balance is off , and not in a "balance should be off" sort of way but in a "I got 5 XP for the dragon I just fought for an hour and 1000 XP for a rat" kind of way.

I'm really, really happy with grimoire as it is- But with Cleve still tweaking and fixing shit I personally want to wait to put anymore time in (already have over 40 hours) - I also would throw some more money cleves way for new tilesets, expansions and continued development...

Oh and youre all fags.

 

[DavidBVal]

I think Mondbluts mini-manifest on RPGs was great but I also think felip makes a great point about the last few years bringing us many great RPGs, or at the very least ending the drought we were in. When I first started lurking the codex there was literally nothing decent in gaming that I liked, much less RPGs- Now, the past few years Ive played alot of great games that I personally find fun. I think we're approaching another heyday myself , with self publishing and cheaper dev tools its allowing indies and even single people to get creative again and imho we're starting to see that. We're getting alot of trash too but if you can separate the wheat from the chaff theres really alot of great games to play these last few years.

Exactly my sentiment. There's great value in the fundational roots of RPGs, but other games are good for different reasons, and there's more than one way to enjoy games.

Also, mom and dad fighting will make me wet my blankets tonight. Please stop.