Grimoire Thread

[Lady_Error]

That is very odd. I recently did the map on V2 and it worked as intended for me.

Hmm... Have you done

Spoiler

something with the clock

Already?

I'll check it again once I'm done 100%:ing remaining maps.

Spoiler

You mean the Metronome Mysterium? Not sure why it would have an effect on the console - and the other console still works. I think I activated the alarm mode and fought the bots around the clock first before going back to the barracks to check for the firearms console. But I haven't done anything to the clock yet.

whocares Did you get the Firearms skill in V2? Is there supposed to be a second console across from the two ACME machines?

 

[Lady_Error]

whocares Did you get the Firearms skill in V2? Is there supposed to be a second console across from the two ACME machines?

Yeah, worked like a charm for me. Mind you, my guys were still blasting through 99 batteries in a single shot after that, but the skill console worked.

So let me get this straight: There are two consoles across from the ACME machines or only one? In my game there is just one that says to return the Havoc Seed, etc. Or do you need to do something else at that console to learn the skill?

 

[Lady_Error]

So let me get this straight: There are two consoles across from the ACME machines or only one? In my game there is just one that says to return the Havoc Seed, etc. Or do you need to do something else at that console to learn the skill?

There are two consoles on the opposite sides of the entrance to the room with the ACME machines. One gives you some flavor text, and the other one teaches you several skills if you have the alien visor equipped. One of those skills is Firearms.

Just checked - the flavor text console is across from the gun machine, and the skill console is across from the ammo one.

Okay, I found an older save game where it works. However, in the later save game where I walk back from the Metronome room the second console is bugged - the surface of the wall is clickable (a hand appears), but nothing happens. This is a weird bug.

 

[Lady_Error]

Natural Resistances of the different races, sorted by the total number of points:

http://grimoire.wiki/index.php/Races#Natural_Resistances

Plus, what the three-letter-abbrevations of the resistances actually mean.

 

[Gunnar]

Which are the most important resistances to have? I'm thinking System, Death, Mental, Mesmer and Paralyzing?

 

[Lady_Error]

I think System, Death and Sorcery (against all kinds of magic) are the most important ones. They are also listed as the first three.

Mental and Paralyzing are probably the next ones in importance.

One thing I learned today is that the racial resistances are ALSO permanently increased with the multiplier bonus when you create a character. That makes it even more important to pick a high multiplier bonus race/class combination in the beginning.

It can also make sense to start out with a Prestige Class like Assassin and then continue with the normal classes: This gives you the special skills from the beginning and enough level ups to bring them up quickly AND the XP requirements for most normal classes are much lower - meaning you can level up more often.

 

[mondblut]

Which are the most important resistances to have? I'm thinking System, Death, Mental, Mesmer and Paralyzing?

Multiple lethal blow attacks from each party member is the best resistance.

 

[Lady_Error]

It actually looks like the Drake are the super-race for Melee multiclassing.

Drake: Highest Natural Armor Class, second highest total Resistances (esp. the important ones), third highest number of Attribute points (multiclassing), Unarmed Attacks & Breath Attack (for the beginning). So starting with a Drake Metalsmith (+55% permanent resistances, +55% skill points on each levelup and +55% bonus points in creation AND Lethal Blow from the start) seems like one of the best choices for a melee character. Even their mana regen is relatively quick.

 

[mondblut]

It actually looks like the Drake are the super-race for Melee multiclassing.

They can't equip most body armors. Eventually I gave up on any races which have item restrictions (or less than maximum mana regen), so, only barrowers and wolfin exist.

 

[Gunnar]

It actually looks like the Drake are the super-race for Melee multiclassing.

Drake: Highest Natural Armor Class, second highest total Resistances (esp. the important ones), third highest number of Attribute points (multiclassing), Unarmed Attacks & Breath Attack (for the beginning). So starting with a Drake Metalsmith (+55% permanent resistances, +55% skill points on each levelup and +55% bonus points in creation AND Lethal Blow from the start) seems like one of the best choices for a melee character. Even their mana regen is relatively quick.

The Wolfin seems to have the best attribute spread for melee multiclassing but it sounds like the multipliers matter more than anything. Not sure I like that too much, feels like railroading.

It actually looks like the Drake are the super-race for Melee multiclassing.

They can't equip most body armors. Eventually I gave up on any races which have item restrictions (or less than maximum mana regen), so, only barrowers and wolfin exist.

eh, I had one and he can equip high level armors, so it's mostly an issue in the beginning. Naga seem much worse since they can't use pants or shoes at all.

 

[Lady_Error]

The Wolfin seems to have the best attribute spread for melee multiclassing

Yeah, starting with a Wolfin Ranger (+60%) is also a good idea. His multiclassing is a bit tricky though. He needs to go through WARRIOR, BERSERK and THIEF - and by that time he needs to have collected enough extra attribute points for an ASSASSIN (60 points) or PIRATE (60 points), but that's just 4 class changes. So the HP increase won't be very large.

Or the Wolfin Ranger can instead end up as magic user with RANGER-THIEF(0p)-BARD(35p)-CLERIC(0p)-SAGE(25p)-WIZARD(0p)-THAUM(15p)-NECRO(50p). His fast mana regen is good for that.

If you start with a Wofin Cleric (+20%) you get stuck in Magic classes, since the Cleric is the exit point from the Magic classes. So either 4 class changes in Magic classes are enough for you and the Wolfin doesn't reach the Prestige Classes (except Necro which is sort of one) or you need to start without the 20% bonus for a Cleric and instead pick another magic class to go the whole route to a Prestige class:

Wolfin Wizard (0%) and then multiclass to THAUM(15p)-NECRO(50p)-SAGE(25p)-CLERIC(0p)-BARD(35p)-TEMPLAR(75p)-WARRIOR(0p)-BERSERK(15p)-RANGER(0p)-THIEF(0p)-ASSASSIN(60p) or PIRATE(60p)

Considering that each level up will increase Mana, you may go through the Melee classes, but still continue using the Wolfin as a Magic class. After those 11 class changes he will be great at magic and at breaking skulls, so sort of a superman.

Though you may get stuck in a class, because of the high requirements for some of them (50 points for Necro and 75 poins for Templar). If you go through 8 Levels before changing class, you will get 8-48 extra attribute points per class which you can save. So this either means save scumming for more extra attribute points on level ups or you may not have enough for a class change to Necro or Templar.

However, the Necro can be skipped to go from Thaumaturge to Sage and then continue the whole multiclassing.

but it sounds like the multipliers matter more than anything. Not sure I like that too much, feels like railroading.

Not really. The multiplier only increases the number of skill points you get, the resistances (only somewhat) and the bonus points at creation (eg. somewhat more HP). So the multiplier is helpful, but not that important.

 

[Lady_Error]

It actually looks like the Drake are the super-race for Melee multiclassing.

They can't equip most body armors. Eventually I gave up on any races which have item restrictions (or less than maximum mana regen), so, only barrowers and wolfin exist.

eh, I had one and he can equip high level armors, so it's mostly an issue in the beginning. Naga seem much worse since they can't use pants or shoes at all.

Yeah, the Drake can equip all high level armor: the Elite Corps stuff, all the helmets, arms and legs gear, boots, even the Golden Armor. So it's simply not true that they are limited in gear. That's the Durendil, Feyfolk and Aeorb. And to some degree, the Naga (no pants or boots).

 

[Gunnar]

but it sounds like the multipliers matter more than anything. Not sure I like that too much, feels like railroading.

Not really. The multiplier only increases the number of skill points you get, the resistances (only somewhat) and the bonus points at creation (eg. somewhat more HP). So the multiplier is helpful, but not that important.

Why not start as Wolfin Metalsmith then? If you look at the minimum attributes needed for all the martial classes, the Wolfin has higher scores in those attributes than Drake does.

 

[Lady_Error]

Why not start as Wolfin Metalsmith then? If you look at the minimum attributes needed for all the martial classes, the Wolfin has higher scores in those attributes than Drake does.

If you ignore the Drake Metalsmith 55% multiplier bonus, then yeah, the Drake and Wolfin are about equal for melee classes. So instead of starting with a Wolfin Wizard and doing 11 class changes, you can start with Wolfin Metalsmith and do 10 class changes:

Wolfin Metalsmith (+0%) multiclassing to WARRIOR(0p)-BERSERK(15p)-RANGER(0p)-ASSASSIN(60p) or PIRATE(60p)-THIEF(0p)-BARD(35p)-CLERIC(0p)-SAGE(25p)-THAUM(15p)-NECRO(50p)

By the way, no one can change class to a Metalsmith. Considering that starting with one gives you Lethal Blow and an extra class to collect HP, Mana and Skill points for multiclassing, Metalsmith is a pretty good initial choice, not just for the Drakes (+55%), but also Barrower (+40%), Giant (+50%) or even without the multiplier bonus for Wolfin and others.

 

[Gunnar]

Why not start as Wolfin Metalsmith then? If you look at the minimum attributes needed for all the martial classes, the Wolfin has higher scores in those attributes than Drake does.

If you ignore the Drake Metalsmith 55% multiplier bonus, then yeah, the Drake and Wolfin are about equal for melee classes. So instead of starting with a Wolfin Wizard and doing 11 class changes, you can start with Wolfin Metalsmith and do 10 class changes:

Wolfin Metalsmith (+0%) multiclassing to WARRIOR(0p)-BERSERK(15p)-RANGER(0p)-ASSASSIN(60p) or PIRATE(60p)-THIEF(0p)-BARD(35p)-CLERIC(0p)-SAGE(25p)-THAUM(15p)-NECRO(50p)

By the way, no one can change class to a Metalsmith. Considering that starting with one gives you Lethal Blow and an extra class to collect HP, Mana and Skill points for multiclassing, Metalsmith is a pretty good initial choice, not just for the Drakes (+55%), but also Barrower (+40%), Giant (+50%) or even without the multiplier bonus for Wolfin and others.

You said the multipliers werent that important, not sure I agree there but if that's true then Wolfin is better multiclass race than Drake. Seems like the resistance bonus from multipliers is pretty great though, since you can always get more of everything else by leveling up.

 

[mondblut]

Yeah, the Drake can equip all high level armor: the Elite Corps stuff, all the helmets, arms and legs gear, boots, even the Golden Armor. So it's simply not true that they are limited in gear.

Early on, when it matters the most, they very much are.

That's the Durendil, Feyfolk and Aeorb. And to some degree, the Naga (no pants or boots).

Giants, too. A plenty of stuff they can't use, seemingly without a method to their restrictions.

 

[Gunnar]

That's the Durendil, Feyfolk and Aeorb. And to some degree, the Naga (no pants or boots).

Giants, too. A plenty of stuff they can't use, seemingly without a method to their restrictions.

I never missed the equipment for my backline party members but it matters for the front liners.

 

[Lady_Error]

You said the multipliers werent that important, not sure I agree there but if that's true then Wolfin is better multiclass race than Drake.

Without the multipliers, the Drake and Wolfin are about equal. With the multipliers it may be a different story. You also need to consider how many times that race/class combo can multiclass:

A Wolfin Ranger (60% multiplier) can do only 4 class changes. A Drake Metalsmith (55% multiplier) can do 10 class changes.

A Wolfin Cleric (20% multiplier) can also do only 4 class changes. So the two Wolfin classes with multipliers cannot do a lot of multiclassing, while the multiplier class of the Drake can.

 

[The_Mask]

This is the first thing that I figured out as well: Drakes are the best tanks, especially early on. Pos 1 and 2 are always drakes for me.

 

[Lady_Error]

Seems like the resistance bonus from multipliers is pretty great though, since you can always get more of everything else by leveling up.

I think it depends. If you get 50% more on 10 resistance, you still end up with only 15 resistance.

In this area, the Drake is also better: SYSTEM resistance goes from 30 to 45, SORCERY resistance goes from 20 to 30, FIRE goes from 50 to 75 (walk on lava), CAUSTIC (ACID) goes from 20 to 30.

For the Wolfin, you only get: 25 COLD resistance goes to 40. Everything else is 10-15 or less.

 

[Gunnar]

You said the multipliers werent that important, not sure I agree there but if that's true then Wolfin is better multiclass race than Drake.

Without the multipliers, the Drake and Wolfin are about equal. With the multipliers it may be a different story. You also need to consider how many times that race/class combo can multiclass:

A Wolfin Ranger (60% multiplier) can do only 4 class changes. A Drake Metalsmith (55% multiplier) can do 10 class changes.

A Wolfin Cleric (20% multiplier) can also do only 4 class changes. So the two Wolfin classes with multipliers cannot do a lot of multiclassing, while the multiplier class of the Drake can.

A Wolfin needs 35 attribute points to run through the melee classes, while a Drake needs 60, (Leonar needs 55).

I think if you're going to be going through all the spellcasting classes as well as the melee classes, then mana regen becomes an issue.

 

[Lady_Error]

A Wolfin needs 35 attribute points to run through the melee classes, while a Drake needs 60, (Leonar needs 55).

If you want to start as a Metalsmith and do 10 class changes (ending in Necro or another magic class), then the Wolfin does indeed need less points (15) to go through the Melee classes than the Drake (39). But since you will go through four classes in which you go up 7-8 levels each, that 25 points difference doesn't really matter at all.

And the Drake still has the advantage of much higher resistances and 50% more skill points on each levelup if you compare Drake Metalsmith and Wolfin Metalsmith (no bonus multiplier).

I've started putting this "Multiclassing Careers by Race" info here: http://grimoire.wiki/index.php/Professions#Multiclassing_Careers_by_Race

I think if you're going to be going through all the spellcasting classes as well as the melee classes, then mana regen becomes an issue.

Mana regen is only an issue or nuisance with Drows and Humans. Everyone else is quite fast or super-fast: http://grimoire.wiki/index.php/Races#Mana_Regeneration

 

[Gunnar]

A Wolfin needs 35 attribute points to run through the melee classes, while a Drake needs 60, (Leonar needs 55).

If you want to start as a Metalsmith and do 10 class changes (ending in Necro or another magic class), then the Wolfin does indeed need less points (15) to go through the Melee classes than the Drake (39). But since you will go through four classes in which you go up 7-8 levels each, that 25 points difference doesn't really matter at all.

And the Drake still has the advantage of much higher resistances and 50% more skill points on each levelup if you compare Drake Metalsmith and Wolfin Metalsmith (no bonus multiplier).

I've started putting this "Multiclassing Careers by Race" info here: http://grimoire.wiki/index.php/Professions#Multiclassing_Careers_by_Race

If you're doing 10 class changes and leveling to 7-8 with each one, attributes and skill points differences would be meaningless since you would have so many, but if you're making a reasonably good fighter like most people would, say:

MET-BER-RAN-WAR
MET-WAR-BER-RAN

And class changing at something like level 5, the attribute differences would matter more. Skill points not as important for fighters, and you would cover all equipment choices. You can't argue with the much better resistances of the Drake though.

Cool write up, I'll take a look.

 

[Lady_Error]

If you're doing 10 class changes and leveling to 7-8 with each one, attributes and skill points differences would be meaningless

Not really, there are some races that will have a much easier time with the 10-11 class changes routes. There are really only a few routes for 10-11 class changes:

1) Start with the Spellcasters, go through the Bard to the Melee Classes and end up as Assassin or Pirate.

2) Start with the Melee classes, become Assassin or Pirate (optional) and go through the Bard to the Spellcasters.

3) You can change the Jester to an Assassin or Thief and go through the Melee classes that way (after starting with the Spellcasters), so that works too actually.

4) Another option is to use the Cleric and Templar to go from Spellcasters to the Melee Classes and end up with either an Assassin or Pirate - or go through a Bard to the Jester. Need to look more into that one. I think it may actually cover even more classes.

 

[Lady_Error]

So the maximum number of classes you can go through seems to be 13 out of all 15 classes. That's a maximum of 12 class changes, though this one doesn't make much sense since you need to go from a Jester to Assassin in the end:

Barrower Thaumaturge (30% bonus multiplier) to Assassin (maximum class changes):

• 12 class changes, the Assassin-Jester career:
• THAUMATURGE(start)-WIZARD(0p)-NECRO(40p)-SAGE(25p)-CLERIC(10p)-TEMPLAR(65p)-WARRIOR(10p)-RANGER(0p)-BERSERK(10p)-THIEF(20p)-BARD(35p)-JESTER(175p)-ASSASSIN(70p)
• You go through all but two classes (except Metalsmith and Pirate)
• Easy to do, though requires more luck with getting enough extra attribute points for the Necro, Templar and of course Jester. The Necro can be skipped.
  
• Going from the Jester to Assassin is really optional and requires no extra points since the Jester has higher attributes.

The same as above, but you stay with the Jester in the end:

Barrower Thaumaturge (30% bonus multiplier) to Jester:

• 11 class changes, the Jester non-plus-ultra career:
• THAUMATURGE(start)-WIZARD(0p)-NECRO(40p)-SAGE(25p)-CLERIC(10p)-TEMPLAR(65p)-WARRIOR(10p)-BERSERK(10p)-RANGER(0p)-THIEF(20p)-BARD(35p)-JESTER(175p)
• You go through all but three classes (except Metalsmith, Pirate and Assassin)
• Easy to do, though requires more luck with getting enough extra attribute points for the Necro, Templar and of course Jester. The Necro can be skipped.
• 290 points required or 290/11 = 26 extra points on average per class.

http://grimoire.wiki/index.php/Professions#Multiclassing_Careers_by_Race