Hard West - tactical turn based + wild west setting

[Zombra]

Also this game is going to have stuff like ghosts and Satan. Historical realism isn't the priority here, it's about creating a mood. Which I completely support.

 

[sser]

I think it's about combat scenarios in a setting that is ill-fitted to the idea.

X-Com/XCOM gets away with its combat approach because its focus is quite literally on military outfits designed to do combat.

Conflict in the West was sporadic, often senseless, and rarely organized. This is what I mean when a Jagged Alliance-approach should be taken over the battlemap load-in approach that is XCOM. Because, often, what lead up to a violent occasion in the West, the "build up" if you will, was frequently more interesting than the short-lived gunfight it culminated in. But that's just me.

Like I said, I'd accept the 'camp' and 'cheese' like a motherfucker if I were designing a Western game based on XCOM's 2AP-system. You gotta squeeze out as many gameplay as options from a simplistic system like that. So yeah, bring in the ghosts and bizarro shit because if it's too straightlaced it just won't have all that much to do.

 

[Dr Tomo]

I think it's about combat scenarios in a setting that is ill-fitted to the idea.

X-Com/XCOM gets away with its combat approach because its focus is quite literally on military outfits designed to do combat.

Conflict in the West was sporadic, often senseless, and rarely organized. This is what I mean when a Jagged Alliance-approach should be taken over the battlemap load-in approach that is XCOM. Because, often, what lead up to a violent occasion in the West, the "build up" if you will, was frequently more interesting than the short-lived gunfight it culminated in. But that's just me.

Like I said, I'd accept the 'camp' and 'cheese' like a motherfucker if I were designing a Western game based on XCOM's 2AP-system. You gotta squeeze out as many gameplay as options from a simplistic system like that. So yeah, bring in the ghosts and bizarro shit because if it's too straightlaced it just won't have all that much to do.

Can you explain more on this as I don't want to misconstrue.

 

[sser]

A tactical-strategy game about combat tends to work better if it's focused on actual combat units. At least that's my opinion.

e.g., Jagged Alliance, X-Com, Silent Storm, Battle Brothers, etc.

The West is not really a combat scenario, it's just a general setting where people were sometimes violent toward one another, most of it not particularly organized (i.e., "tactical").

I think the "gangster" genre provides a good example since it's had more attempts than the Western genre. The best gangster games either focus on the action (shoot 'em up games, like Mafia) or they focus on the organization (strategy games, like Gangsters). Omerta is the only game I know of that tried to make a "tactical combat" game out of the genre. Sure, it had some 'strategy' shit going on, but it was just a formality to get the player to the combat. But the combat fucking blows in that game. Why? Because what the fuck is there to do with gangsters, exactly? They're people that ambush one another, assassinate, etc. They're not really soldiers. Tactics hardly existed in their realm. So to produce a tactical game just seems extra difficult to me, and apparently it was too difficult for Omerta. I'm not saying it can't be done, but by the evidence I see it's just particularly difficult to wrangle some "thematic genres" into strategy games.

 

[felipepepe]

True. Nu XCOM was already shallow, and it had base building, air combat, the geoscape, managing satelities, panic control, council resources, armor & weapon research, capturing aliens & doing autopsies, army classes and ranks, sniper rifles, grenades and even robots later. A Wild West setting won't have any of that, so how will the game stay interesting?

Personally, I still thing that going for strong characters like JA is the best solution. Might as well enforce Iron Man mode. I remember reading Jake Solomon talking that after seeing how people were playing he felt that the whole game could have been in constant Iron man mode. Take his experience and do it.

 

[Galdred]

I wish, however, to ask you this: knowing what you know, if you would have to stick with 2ap and simplified cover system (assuming they make the game approachable, and that's what we want), how would you add depth to that?

Please help me out here, and we may still make it a project worth your while.

It would be difficult. It's like asking how to add depth to tic-tac-toe, or how to setup a diving board over a two-foot pool. The simplicity of XCOM's binary system is its very foundation -- and that simplicity can only be stretched so far

Adding depth to Tic-Tac-Toe can be done : Gomoku, or ultimate tic-tac-toe are good exemples.
Gomoku is the better exemple, because it only makes the grid limitless, raises the victory condition to 5, adds a small setup phase, and voila.
A complex system does not make a complex game, and a complex game can emerge out of a simple system (go for instance). X-Com had to be complex because it was a firefight simulation. Neu XCom threw the simulation aspects through the window and went with a boardgamey feel, but it could still have been a complex game nevertheless (I never heard people complain about ToEE or Knights of the Chalice having 1 move and 1 action, same for Descent: Journey in the dark). Most wargames have way more tactical depth and use a 1 move 1 attack system). What really cut on the tactical complexity of the game was the small maps, even smaller engagement zones (you don't want to move too much, for fear of activating new groups of aliens), small number of soldiers and aliens involved at the same time(3 aliens vs 4-6 soldiers most of the time).

So the way to make the game more complex is the same as with TicTacToe : larger maps, more opponent acting at the same time, and more player controlled characters. The problem is that, as sser and Felipepepe pointed out, it does not fit the Western theme too much to have parties of 15 fighting it out over a large area.
Another shortcoming of XCom is the lack of incentive to go fast, which makes crawling one move at a time (ie only the first soldier reveals, then all the other ones move behind so that they don't reveal any new alien, and everyone goes on overwatch in case a patrol pops out) the optimal option every time.

 

[Dr Tomo]

A tactical-strategy game about combat tends to work better if it's focused on actual combat units. At least that's my opinion.

e.g., Jagged Alliance, X-Com, Silent Storm, Battle Brothers, etc.

The West is not really a combat scenario, it's just a general setting where people were sometimes violent toward one another, most of it not particularly organized (i.e., "tactical").

I think the "gangster" genre provides a good example since it's had more attempts than the Western genre. The best gangster games either focus on the action (shoot 'em up games, like Mafia) or they focus on the organization (strategy games, like Gangsters). Omerta is the only game I know of that tried to make a "tactical combat" game out of the genre. Sure, it had some 'strategy' shit going on, but it was just a formality to get the player to the combat. But the combat fucking blows in that game. Why? Because what the fuck is there to do with gangsters, exactly? They're people that ambush one another, assassinate, etc. They're not really soldiers. Tactics hardly existed in their realm. So to produce a tactical game just seems extra difficult to me, and apparently it was too difficult for Omerta. I'm not saying it can't be done, but by the evidence I see it's just particularly difficult to wrangle some "thematic genres" into strategy games.

Thank you for the clarification as I highlighted it in bold as the new Xcom was horrid and I never played TB games before other then actual board games with people physically present in the room. Cover system was shit and the a.i was just as much shit.

I wish, however, to ask you this: knowing what you know, if you would have to stick with 2ap and simplified cover system (assuming they make the game approachable, and that's what we want), how would you add depth to that?

Please help me out here, and we may still make it a project worth your while.

It would be difficult. It's like asking how to add depth to tic-tac-toe, or how to setup a diving board over a two-foot pool. The simplicity of XCOM's binary system is its very foundation -- and that simplicity can only be stretched so far

Adding depth to Tic-Tac-Toe can be done : Gomoku, or ultimate tic-tac-toe are good exemples.
Gomoku is the better exemple, because it only makes the grid limitless, raises the victory condition to 5, adds a small setup phase, and voila.
A complex system does not make a complex game, and a complex game can emerge out of a simple system (go for instance). X-Com had to be complex because it was a firefight simulation. Neu XCom threw the simulation aspects through the window and went with a boardgamey feel, but it could still have been a complex game nevertheless (I never heard people complain about ToEE or Knights of the Chalice having 1 move and 1 action, same for Descent: Journey in the dark). Most wargames have way more tactical depth and use a 1 move 1 attack system). What really cut on the tactical complexity of the game was the small maps, even smaller engagement zones (you don't want to move too much, for fear of activating new groups of aliens), small number of soldiers and aliens involved at the same time(3 aliens vs 4-6 soldiers most of the time).

So the way to make the game more complex is the same as with TicTacToe : larger maps, more opponent acting at the same time, and more player controlled characters. The problem is that, as sser and Felipepepe pointed out, it does not fit the Western theme too much to have parties of 15 fighting it out over a large area.
Another shortcoming of XCom is the lack of incentive to go fast, which makes crawling one move at a time (ie only the first soldier reveals, then all the other ones move behind so that they don't reveal any new alien, and everyone goes on overwatch in case a patrol pops out) the optimal option every time.

Yes, a complex game can come from a simple system, but what I noticed a lot of people in this thread seems to get wrong is that a strategy game in a nut shells is all about options not complex rules. MTG, Chess, Shogi, Go is all about options that you have for your turn and that is what determines a games complexity. War games is a bad example as it is just as deep because of the many factors that come into play like morale, situation in time, supplies, unit strength, and etc and it actually ranks just above chess when it comes to game complexity as war games in nature has always been based on attrition. TicTacToe is basically the retard level of depth and you really can't add any more because of the limitation that it has to be nine cells with three in the row to be the determinant of a winner and so a 2 ap system can inhibit the depth of the game.

As for the new xcom the entire game to me was shit as cover system was horrid and weird rng that made no sense like how they implemented morale into the game and other things. If they want to copy the new xcom I would say u.i would be good as I like it, but other then that game is a bit weak when it comes to strategy. What Vaultdweller mentioned of adding more ap actually does add more depth as it gives me more options as this is a tactical level game. Other then that I really won't add much and will just watch everyone else discuss design mechanics.

 

[mikaelis]

Wow

 

[Infinitron]

Why in this thread I don't even

 

[Zombra]

Why in this thread I don't even

Yeah ... that's what a lot of people are saying about the latest Hard West KS update. That trailer was it.

 

[Infinitron]

Why in this thread I don't even

Yeah ... that's what a lot of people are saying about the latest Hard West KS update. That trailer was it.

lol wut https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1752350052/hard-west/posts/960170

Well...

I guess it should have its own thread anyway?

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

I'm confused.

 

[m_s0]

According to the Hard West team it's the game they've already finished. The publisher just didn't feel like announcing it until now.

 

[felipepepe]

If they already have a publisher and managed to produce a game, I wonder why they need a Kickstarter... is not like making a Nu-XCOM clone is the most risky of endeavors... especially asking for only 70k.

Another Kingdom Come: Deliverance, "let's prove that people want this"?

 

[Ulminati]

Was going to pledge, won't now. Nothing to do with the game out of nowhere, but the publisher. Paradox are scum. I will not give them my money.

 

[Tzaero]

I figure i'll do the same as im not sure about the gameplay, and neither are they.
Ill drop my discounted pledge towards the end if nothing changes what i think about it.

 

[Galdred]

If they already have a publisher and managed to produce a game, I wonder why they need a Kickstarter... is not like making a Nu-XCOM clone is the most risky of endeavors... especially asking for only 70k.

Another Kingdom Come: Deliverance, "let's prove that people want this"?

Actually, maybe they don't want to be published by Paradox this time.

 

[mikaelis]

lol wut https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1752350052/hard-west/posts/960170

Well...

I guess it should have its own thread anyway?

Yes, I was thinking about starting new thread, but then thought it is more awkward that way (as in underlining the awkwardness of the whole thing). Plus they posted it there.

I guess it is too early to become butthurt for whatever reason some people in this thread are. It could be their own small project (kick starter) that they don't want Paradox to put their hands on IP-wise and so on. That way they don't have to rely solely on the publisher but have alternative source for paying their bills.
Smart thinking, no? Better this than whining on the codex forums that they are out of jobs because of evil publisher...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Zombra]

Eh, nothing wrong with a little cross-promotion.

 

[Whiran]

If they already have a publisher and managed to produce a game, I wonder why they need a Kickstarter... is not like making a Nu-XCOM clone is the most risky of endeavors... especially asking for only 70k.

Another Kingdom Come: Deliverance, "let's prove that people want this"?

I think it's more of a marketing thing.

The concept of using kickstarter to market a game is happily being abused (in my view at least.)

There's no way that 70k would pay for a new game with a team of 19 people (as per their picture on the kickstarter page.)

They even write that the 70k has nothing to do with funding the game.

Why are you only asking for $70k? Making a full game is obviously much more expensive than that?!

Our main KS goal is NOT the full budget of the game - we only need a little money to set the project on its way.

That makes me wonder why it is even on kickstarter in the first place. At the end of the day I suspect it's about trying to get pre-sales and for generating "buzz."

 

[Dr Tomo]

The concept of using kickstarter to market a game is happily being abused (in my view at least.)

There's no way that 70k would pay for a new game with a team of 19 people (as per their picture on the kickstarter page.)

"The amount of trust here is enormous. So PlayWay allows us to use their KS account (it's very problematic to start KS campaign if you're outside of US, UK, Canada)."

The studio is located in Poland fyi not in Canada, so 70k does pay a good amount.

 

[Whiran]

The concept of using kickstarter to market a game is happily being abused (in my view at least.)

There's no way that 70k would pay for a new game with a team of 19 people (as per their picture on the kickstarter page.)

"The amount of trust here is enormous. So PlayWay allows us to use their KS account (it's very problematic to start KS campaign if you're outside of US, UK, Canada)."

The studio is located in Poland fyi not in Canada, so 70k does pay a good amount.

Even at $1000 / month per person (without benefits) that's still under four months of pay.

70k/19k/month = 3.6 months

The average salary for a programmer type in Poland is more than twice that at around 20k - 24k / year.
(as per http://www.payscale.com/research/PL/Country=Poland/Salary)

Either way, they even admit that the 70k wouldn't cover the cost of development. So why are they asking for it? They don't answer that question on the kickstarter.

 

[buzz]

The D:OS money weren't supposed to cover the cost of the development either, just polishing and maybe adding some extra features.

 

[m_s0]

The concept of using kickstarter to market a game is happily being abused (in my view at least.)

There's no way that 70k would pay for a new game with a team of 19 people (as per their picture on the kickstarter page.)

"The amount of trust here is enormous. So PlayWay allows us to use their KS account (it's very problematic to start KS campaign if you're outside of US, UK, Canada)."

The studio is located in Poland fyi not in Canada, so 70k does pay a good amount.

Even at $1000 / month per person (without benefits) that's still under four months of pay.

70k/19k/month = 3.6 months

The average salary for a programmer type in Poland is more than twice that at around 20k - 24k / year.
(as per http://www.payscale.com/research/PL/Country=Poland/Salary)

Either way, they even admit that the 70k wouldn't cover the cost of development. So why are they asking for it? They don't answer that question on the kickstarter.

They do. In the pitch and, in more detail, in one of the updates. Right here:

$70k?
As mentioned in the Video (soon with subtitles!) (sorry!) we don't expect a full production funding. We need a kickstart. The funds from our last finished project are running late and we need a bridge to get across. Owing to our publisher, it wasn't revealed yet and we have to bootstrap through KS, else we risk going out of the market/miss paying our bills BEFORE you even get to hear the title.

Absolutely worst case scenario - $70k will allow us to survive until we can publish a solid EA containing what you saw in the trailer and the 6-scenario campaign, we go down, PlayWay wraps it up.

Best case scenario, there's a lot of awesome stuff for us just around the corner, if we can only get there:

• We'll get the final batch of funds for finishing our last project - 100% sure, but date remains unknown
• Our RTS project gets released, and starts selling
• Early Access sells
• This campaign draws attention of investment partners to us (this is actually already happening, nothing solid yet though, we just started talking)

 

[Whiran]

They do. In the pitch and, in more detail, in one of the updates. Right here:

Thank you for that! I missed the expanded explanation in the updates.