Has there ever been a BIG open world RPG that was also QUALITY?

[Fenix]

You can have 50 quality dungeons or 200 mediocre ones, there's a certain amount of human creativity that doesn't run out after just a single unique dungeon (ironically in Morrowind I've only come across five or six truly unique dungeons...).

I would play the game where you can have exactly one dungeon, masterfully crafted.
You start and the bottom and what to get out, or on the contrary.

I ironically find more interesting stuff to see by talking a walk in real life, in my boring ass neighborhood, than seeing yet another low poly tree/rock and low res textures.

100% true.

 

[Fenix]

Procedural terrain generation is standard on the industry right now, nobody actually design by hand every square inch of a open world game nowdays, you have a tool like World Creator to create a basic topology then you draw over it, you can program those tools for logical terrain placement, the next level is to create such tools that can design the levels themselves without them looking copy pasted. Star Citizen is playing with that on the moment, if they are going to succeed, I really dont know, to me is only hype until I see it.

That mean, when ai(lol) will be better, then plebs will be fed with machine "created" content only, just as they going to supply pleb with cloths made by machines too, from some plastic threads lol, and same for everything. The future, very very bright with complete absence of human spirit from every sphere of everydy life. Have you read War and Peace? Don't even read that old shit - we have better, wrote by our newst Chronicler 23.4556 b, with fresh patch fixing grammar!
Or is it already here in some genre?
So much luck I'll die befor ethat shit happen, and so sorry for descendants.

 

[Fenix]

. Pre any wiki or other easily available online compendium. The game was the Wild West there for a little bit. Nobody knew a fucking thing.

Yeah, that's the only - but strong reason to play on release.

I never raided much. Was never part of a guild. I played through the entire game from day one mostly solo or sometimes with one real-life friend. Only joined groups when it was absolutely necessary.

The game got gamified very quickly.

Same, but for Fonline. When it started, people were communicating via in-game means - that radio, you type in channel and then write what you want to speak. We all were talking rabid and mad stories there - as one's imaginations allowed, me too, there were many cases "there is no women in internet", trolling and such, best channle was 0.
I was crafter and trader - some dude hauled to me 10mm SMGs and I made them into HK P90, and trade them, no guilds and such.
Then in exactly same time Mumble got wide ppularity, and nobody communicate with radio anymore, everybody using voice chats.
Free trading is gone, gangs formed, what is effective and what isn't is known so you only and quickly repeat effective things, no crafter outside guild is needed so no such trading like before.
Everything turned to "join a chat and raid a gang" or "join a chat and raid civilian in towns" if you are memeber of gang.
Convenience and progress have another side of the coin - it kills something important.

I have, and all the soul the game got is from the content Toady manually wrote in. The algorithm just mixes that content up to create backgrounds and gameplay. That often leads to fun stories but none of it has soul. It's just a random combination of the same repeating elements, cobbled together by an algorithm. Dwarf Fortress may have some of the best procedural generation ever made, but it still doesn't even remotely come close to what an actual level designer can do. It's more of a "have some fun and fool around with cool systems" game than a "get immersed in an intricately crafted world with intent behind it" game.

What would you say on the atrocity CoQ become?

 

[Drowed]

But for about 6 months there if you were lucky enough to have been playing at release, Azeroth was a beautifully-realized, insanely vast and deep open world, full of more interesting things to do and see than any other game experience I've ever had, before or since. The reasons are many, and you were either there and know what I'm talking about, or I'm just another idiot yelling at clouds on the internet.

No, no, I totally understand you. And I had a very similar experience the first few months I played WOW. It was actually a combination of several factors that together created an experience that is difficult to repeat, but I would say essentially for two main reasons.

The first is that Warcraft, at that particular moment, still had an interesting lore for many people. Yeah, Warcraft has always been somewhat generic, but many of the early WOW players grew up along with the franchise, playing Wacraft 1, 2, and 3. It's true that for many Warcraft 3 already proved to be a "detour" (both in mechanics and theme) from the series, but at the same time, you can find the roots of WOW there. So the first point is that, for many people, WOW was the first moment they could literally experience what it would be like to venture into the... World of Warcraft. It was literally seeing the whole world, the whole fantasy universe that you could only see in stories and tiny maps before, open to be explored. I think that for the overwhelming majority of the fans of the series, that experience was something incomparable. And it's something that hasn't been repeated in other open world games.

The second point is the matter of novelty. The first experience, or at least the first experiences you have with an open world game are quite remarkable. When you have not yet been exposed to the concept, the initial feeling that you can walk "anywhere on the map" is extremely impactful. Especially if you are a person who was used to playing more linear games. I imagine that the impact must have been much less remarkable for those who had the chance to play games like Daggerfall before. But I believe that for many people, WOW was the first open-world game that seemed "real", in a fully 3D environment, with a camera that you could control. You really felt you had a whole continent to explore. I remember the feeling of seeing a cave and going into it without any transition, it made the game seem much more like a "real place" to me.

Other open world games were also fun in their own ways, but most likely, my experience with WOW was so impactful because of the whole context. I was much more willing to forgive the game's various problems/flaws because I was so excited about the world and the exploration it offered me. Grinding for hours is something I find unbearable, but even that became more tolerable in WOW when I knew that by getting more levels I could explore different places. Especially because the way the game was initially created, you felt like an adventurer going on your own adventures into a big world, not someone being carried away by the nose following a predetermined story.

But yeah... You can never experience the same thing for the first time again.

 

[Grotesque]

Has there ever been a BIG open world RPG, similar in size to Morrowind, that was just a quality game all around, and didn't leave you thinking "I've been to this fucking dungeon already, I've done this fucking quest already, I've talked to this fucking NPC already"?

Daggerfall

 

[luj1]

Exploring weird places in games like Gothic and Morrowind is literally the experience itself for fuck sake!

Of course it is, OP is just a burnout who lost all sense of wonder for the world. But it cannot possibly be his retarded playstyle that ruined the game for him, no, after 6000 hours it must have never been good!

Spoiler

 

[Invictus]

As I said your premise is retarded so any idiotic defense you put out is equally stupid.... the fact is that even unmodded Morrowind’s dungeons and caves are perfectly fine; be it for finding good loot, great locations and some downright impressive multi leveled dungeons the like we are probably never to see again let alone from Bethesda but any other game company period
But party on by all means, idiots like you love to argue their stupidity before just saying “my bad” and for the record I don’t recall ANYBODY agreeing with you on this thread so maybe you are so brilliant (and right of course) that we poor mortals cannot match your brilliance... or you are a retarded fuckwit arguing shit which now has become boring
But go ahead, demolish me with your brilliant retort

 

[Sigourn]

As I said your premise is retarded so any idiotic defense you put out is equally stupid.... the fact is that even unmodded Morrowind’s dungeons and caves are perfectly fine

So you are calling my premise retarded just because you have shit taste. Ok retard.

downright impressive multi leveled dungeons

Did we play the same game? There are very few multi leveled dungeons in Morrowind. Even many Dwemer Ruins, FUCKING DWEMER RUINS, consist of very few rooms most of the time.

• Example 1.
• Example 2.
• Example 3.
• Example 4.
• Example 5. My God, TWO levels.

And this is not even me doing what that dumbass luj1 claims I do. These are ruins I visited myself in-game with no one to point me to them but my own desire to explore them myself. It's like the people defending Morrowind's dungeons either 1) Haven't played the game in a decade, or 2) Have terrible opinions on what constitute "great" or "unique" dungeons.

EDIT:

• Example 6.

 

[Molina]

Morrowind's strength is its towns, not its dungeons.
The dungeons are functional. It's cool to make one once in a while, but it's clearly not the heart of the game.
About your question. All the open world is boring. But some of them tickle the imagination better than others.

 

[alyvain]

I would play the game where you can have exactly one dungeon, masterfully crafted.

Legends of Grimrock feels surprisingly "meaningful" because of this, although this is just a short little game. I'd say, it's more meaningful than Skyrim, even or maybe especially narratively.

I feel that games are supposed to be fun and/or provide some kind of personal experience to the player. I mean fun like "pure fun", and experience like, well, appreciation of a game as a fine piece of software that helped you organise a few hours of your life and maybe enrich you in some way. Morrowind probably fits the second criteria, and 8 pages of rumbling "b-but guys it's not always fun, it's not a good game" seems weird.

I'm sorry for my ramblings, for that matter, just willing to idly speak of something silly instead of giving an UESP list of unique Morrowind dungeons, which then would be busted as generic because fuck you that's why.

 

[Sigourn]

8 pages of rumbling "b-but guys it's not always fun, it's not a good game" seems weird.

But I didn't say it wasn't good... if it wasn't good, I wouldn't be playing it as we speak. Being good doesn't mean it is flawless, however.
I'm more than willing to hear about unique dungeons, but I've Google'd possible dungeons to see people's opinions, and it's usualliy the same 5-10 that get mentioned. It's very easy to make a dungeon memorable, it just requires something that separates it from the rest. For instance, I entered a cave where there is an Indiana Jones reference. Not my cup of tea, but at least I can say "there is a dungeon with an Indiana Jones reference". There are countless of dungeons, however, that had nothing that made me separate them from the rest. They were just the same basic dungeon with the same basic enemies with the same basic skill book, no hidden story, no unique NPCs, no unique visuals, nothing.

 

[alyvain]

But I didn't say it wasn't good... if it wasn't good, I wouldn't be playing it as we speak. Being good doesn't mean it is flawless, however.

Sorry, my bad

 

[JarlFrank]

I have, and all the soul the game got is from the content Toady manually wrote in. The algorithm just mixes that content up to create backgrounds and gameplay. That often leads to fun stories but none of it has soul. It's just a random combination of the same repeating elements, cobbled together by an algorithm. Dwarf Fortress may have some of the best procedural generation ever made, but it still doesn't even remotely come close to what an actual level designer can do. It's more of a "have some fun and fool around with cool systems" game than a "get immersed in an intricately crafted world with intent behind it" game.

What would you say on the atrocity CoQ become?

CoQ? Caves of Qud? I haven't played that yet.

 

[Fenix]

They went with autogeneration of everything even further I think.

 

[octavius]

I would play the game where you can have exactly one dungeon, masterfully crafted.
You start and the bottom and what to get out, or on the contrary.

Dungeon Master
Chaos Strikes Back
Ultima Underworld

 

[DeepOcean]

AIs and algorithms cannot think outside the box. Flesh and blood designers can. I'd rather play through dungeons designed by real people, with intent behind the design, than algorithm-based stuff that's optimized for my enjoyment but is ultimately bland and without soul.

I agree with you, some of the better games I played have handplaced content and Im not a fan of the way procedural generation is used on most games but it cant be denied that systematic procedural generation have a potential for emergent gameplay but anyway, no developer outside the Roguelike circles actually tried to advance ways to use procedural generation since Daggerfall days but I wonder how a game like Caves of Qud would play if done by a big studio for example.

 

[JarlFrank]

AIs and algorithms cannot think outside the box. Flesh and blood designers can. I'd rather play through dungeons designed by real people, with intent behind the design, than algorithm-based stuff that's optimized for my enjoyment but is ultimately bland and without soul.

I agree with you, some of the better games I played have handplaced content and Im not a fan of the way procedural generation is used on most games but it cant be denied that systematic procedural generation have a potential for emergent gameplay but anyway, no developer outside the Roguelike circles actually tried to advance ways to use procedural generation since Daggerfall days but I wonder how a game like Caves of Qud would play if done by a big studio for example.

In my opinion, procedural only really works when you have AI factions or characters doing stuff following the same rules as you. Strategy games like Total War or Paradox games are fun because you're competing with AI players who have the same goals as you (expanding their empire) and the world will change dynamically based on their actions.

If you have relatively static gameplay (all you do is explore dungeons populated by monsters), proc gen can't offer engaging content for long enough to make the game gripping.

 

[Damned Registrations]

If you have relatively static gameplay (all you do is explore dungeons populated by monsters), proc gen can't offer engaging content for long enough to make the game gripping.

I look forward to your thrilling roguelike that is the same every single time so you can write a TAS for it.

 

[DeepOcean]

Procedural terrain generation is standard on the industry right now, nobody actually design by hand every square inch of a open world game nowdays, you have a tool like World Creator to create a basic topology then you draw over it, you can program those tools for logical terrain placement, the next level is to create such tools that can design the levels themselves without them looking copy pasted. Star Citizen is playing with that on the moment, if they are going to succeed, I really dont know, to me is only hype until I see it.

That mean, when ai(lol) will be better, then plebs will be fed with machine "created" content only, just as they going to supply pleb with cloths made by machines too, from some plastic threads lol, and same for everything. The future, very very bright with complete absence of human spirit from every sphere of everydy life. Have you read War and Peace? Don't even read that old shit - we have better, wrote by our newst Chronicler 23.4556 b, with fresh patch fixing grammar!
Or is it already here in some genre?
So much luck I'll die befor ethat shit happen, and so sorry for descendants.

To be honest with you, I have so little faith on the human spirit, I dont think even an AI could produce the refuse that passes for entertainment these days. People these days are too goddamn weak, just a bunch of complaining little bitches.

 

[JarlFrank]

If you have relatively static gameplay (all you do is explore dungeons populated by monsters), proc gen can't offer engaging content for long enough to make the game gripping.

I look forward to your thrilling roguelike that is the same every single time so you can write a TAS for it.

Roguelike gameplay is static in the way that the world doesn't act on its own and doesn't react to your actions much, unlike a strategy game where AI nations do their own thing and the world state changes dynamically. Once a dungeon level has been generated, that's what it looks like.

And since procedural dungeons are never as fun as unique hand-made ones, roguelikes don't grab my attention for long.

There's more variety in different playthroughs of a Total War or Paradox game even though those are set on pre-made maps than there is in roguelikes.

 

[Damned Registrations]

If you have relatively static gameplay (all you do is explore dungeons populated by monsters), proc gen can't offer engaging content for long enough to make the game gripping.

I look forward to your thrilling roguelike that is the same every single time so you can write a TAS for it.

Roguelike gameplay is static in the way that the world doesn't act on its own and doesn't react to your actions much, unlike a strategy game where AI nations do their own thing and the world state changes dynamically. Once a dungeon level has been generated, that's what it looks like.

And since procedural dungeons are never as fun as unique hand-made ones, roguelikes don't grab my attention for long.

There's more variety in different playthroughs of a Total War or Paradox game even though those are set on pre-made maps than there is in roguelikes.

Funny, I find the exact opposite. Of course, it varies by game, but the difference between playthroughs, even the the exact same race and class, can be quite radical in a roguelike depending on what gets generated. Dealing with a dragon is quite different than a ghost phasing through walls, or being polymorphed into a dog or a level overflowing with explosively breeding monsters. And even those same threats are wildly different depending on your gear. Do you have access to invisibility? Teleportation? AoE wands? Can you alter terrain by digging tunnels or conjuring walls? Can you tame the dragon and make it your pet? Is there a temple the ghost cannot enter? Roguelikes generate a lot of interesting situations. Brogue also nailed the terrain bit; things like burnable grass, pools of lava, exploding swamp gas, collapsing bridges, various traps... certainly more memorable than most hand crafted dungeons I've seen.

Strategy games otoh, are pretty much paint by numbers. Make a doomstack, roll over cities, curse and make a garbage clearing stack for the gnats trying to retake stuff you conquered 30 turns ago. The map itself never really even matters. I think the only location in Total Wahammer I cared about was that one city that gave a huge discount for dragons, and that only matters for high elves. Anything else is just some arbitrary amount of gold and a chunk of map to paint. You can use the same 3 or so strategies anywhere on the map with any faction. Hell, you can use it in multiple GAMES and it'll still work. Something like "1/3rd melee 2/3rds ranged, wait until it's as big a stack as you can command then move out and attack cities whenever the stack is at full health" describes probably 75% of the Total War franchise. Whether the vampire counts have skeleton spearmen or skeleton swordsmen doesn't really make a difference.

 

[Invictus]

I would play the game where you can have exactly one dungeon, masterfully crafted.
You start and the bottom and what to get out, or on the contrary.

Dungeon Master
Chaos Strikes Back
Ultima Underworld

And Arx Fatalis

 

[Zlaja]

The world of Morrowind could have been cut down to a third of its size, and the quality of the game would have been noticably better

No, I don't agree. Some of Morrowind's best moments is when you have to travel really long to a quest location and considering there's no regular fast travel (from a menu) it becomes part of a challenge actually getting there and the whole trip ends up being an adventure in itself. Finding the exact right place can also be a challenge even after you arrive in the right area of the map. Is it this fucking place I'm supposed to enter or was is that other fucking entrance over there and where the fuck are these rock formations the journal mentions....hurr durr.

 

[Invictus]

After all of Sigourn´s retarded posting (which regrettably got him sent to the Ignore list) I decided to roll a new Dunmer War Mage and replay Morrowind with mostly vanilla resources and a few easy of life mods and god damn is the game still fucking fantastic....while exploring a Dunmer stronghold got a glass dagger (even forgot my usual trip to Suran´s pawnbroker for that one ) and I am enjoying the heck out of it...even the slow pace of the game I am finding it a very nice change of pace

 

[Sigourn]

The world of Morrowind could have been cut down to a third of its size, and the quality of the game would have been noticably better

No, I don't agree. Some of Morrowind's best moments is when you have to travel really long to a quest location and considering there's no regular fast travel (from a menu) it becomes part of a challenge actually getting there and the whole trip ends up being an adventure in itself. Finding the exact right place can also be a challenge even after you arrive in the right area of the map. Is it this fucking place I'm supposed to enter or was is that other fucking entrance over there and where the fuck are these rock formations the journal mentions....hurr durr.

I've done quite a bit of quests already, about 180 actually. Just like I'm in position to say "those who say the directions suck are retards", I'm also in position to say most quests are hardly challenging when it comes to finding your goal. The ones that are the most challenging are those that tell you "an NPC went missing in this area" with little to get you going. And even then they are easily solvable for the most part as the NPC is placed in a convenient spot (over these hundreds of hours I've noticed that Morrowind makes heavy use of roads, very little/next to none use of hills). In other words, as long as you follow the roads, you are bound to find your destination for the most part. Most importantly you are almost always given a quest's location by name, e.g. "Nammu", "Ashirbadon", "Arkngthand", "Milk", etc.

And I have to agree with AW8: you could cut the world down to a third of its size, and the quality of the game would have been noticeably better. Those small detours from trying to complete a quest usually end with yet another generic cave/tomb, as I've mentioned many times before.

BTW I've only come across *one* quest whose directions were absolute bullshit. And it was this one. Just like I said that Morrowind places heavy emphasis on roads, this is just about the only quest I've found which was the exception.

Spoiler

This quest is misleading because the actual location of the staff is the exact opposite of the vision given by the oracle. Your discussions and journal will indicate that you should search in the rising and setting shadows of Mount Kand (i.e., below the peak.) However, Iulus' corpse and the staff are actually found at the peak, west of the Cavern, behind some rocks.