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Hearthstone

Cowboy Moment

Arcane
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,407
Minions are the only permanents, and they're really easy to kill in general

That is reallly depends. Like it is very hard to kill a Piests minions, when he controling the board. You need or spells or very powerfull minions in order to do it. Both of this isn't a problem for someone like a Control Warrior, whose deck is basically just spells or very powerfull minions, but for the most decks it could be almost impossible. Or Druids who have a very powerful minions and the ability to place them way before his enemy would have a mana to counter them.

Also minions like Cairne, Harvest Golems or the ones with Divine Shield, which are very problematic to deal with, are very popular for that reason.

What I mean is that with the way combat works, and with the game so focused on minions, your opponent will probably have a way of killing a minion if he really wants to, unless he's completely out of options. He might not be able to do it efficiently, but there's usually a way. The reason I brought this up, is that this makes it difficult to rely on anything actually staying in play. So it's worthless to have, say, a 1/1 minion costing 3 mana with some interesting global or activated effect (something quite common in MtG), because it'll die instantly. I suppose one way would be to make it 0/7 like Doomsayer, but that's kind of a clunky solution.

The point is, you can actually put a lot of interesting effects on minions (or on weapons, for that matter), but the high lethality of the game makes it difficult to actually build decks around these.

It's kind of funny, really, card games have the advantage of not needing to adhere to any kind of "class balance", and can instead have a fluid metagame of decks. In MtG, nobody will give a shit if White is, on average, weaker in a certain block. But Blizzard, in their infinite genius, decided to voluntarily inflict the joys of class balance upon themselves with this weird system they've dreamt up.
Actually it doesn't look like Blizzard cares about some classes or cards being weaker than other. Only about classes or cards, that almost everybody use. So their balancing is mostly consisted of nerfing overpowered cards rather than buffing something.

Really? So they're allright with, say, Warlocks having lower representation at higher levels than Rogues? That would be a departure from their typical policies.

We've already had that conversation. Read the thread to catch up or go away.

Actually he has some good points. And I wouldn't mind if the game would have a deeper mechanic. Game still fun and have a very good F2P model, so unlike MtG don't require money investmens and don't tie you to itself as a result of making them, so it is very good for a hour and a half of enjoiment once in a few days. But I would like it to develop further.

Well, the game still has room to expand. There are a lot of mechanics you could put in without altering any of the core rules. Currently though, it's just a bit too straightforward. This may just be me, but what I always enjoyed about constructed in TCGs were the weird and unintuitive decks exploiting unusual synergies, making use of cards with severe drawbacks that they manage to play around or even use to their advantage. Hearthstone doesn't have a lot of this.

On the other hand, the streamlined mechanics work very well for limited-style formats, and Arena is indeed much more fun than constructed. It's a real pity that classes make it difficult to have a more involved draft format.
 
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Grinolf

Arcane
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
1,297
What I mean is that with the way combat works, and with the game so focused on minions, your opponent will probably have a way of killing a minion if he really wants to, unless he's completely out of options. He might not be able to do it efficiently, but there's usually a way. The reason I brought this up, is that this makes it difficulty to rely on anything actually staying in play. So it's worthless to have, say, a 1/1 minion costing 3 mana with some interesting global or activated effect (something quite common in MtG), because it'll die instantly. I suppose one way would be to make it like 0/7 like Doomsayer, but that's kind of a clunky solution.

The point is, you can actually put a lot of interesting effects on minions (or on weapons, for that matter), but the high lethality of the game makes it difficult to actually build decks around these.

Yes in the Heartstone you shouldn't build a deck, that would depend on some creature staying on the board more than one turn. That is just asking for a disaster. And that is the reason why minions, which ability you could properly make use of on the same turn as you played them, are popular. But some creature are better at surviving than others. It is as you said high amount of HP for the turn they supposed to be played or stealth ability. And Warlock actually had 1/1 minion with stealth that gave every minion one the board 1 HP. But since the effect was too powerful, especially when Warlock drawn both of them at the start, it was nerfed and now has 0 attack and buff an other minion on 1 HP at the end of the turn. It still used, but Warlocks sometimes prefer neutral minion with the same effect, but with 2 attack and without stealth.

Also by choosing when to play particular minion you could maximize the chances, that it would survive, by playing it when it is unlikely for your enemy to have a way to kill it or forcing him to use his means to kill this minion on your other minions before playing it.

There is one interesting exception of it, which is 0/4 legendary for 2 mana. Having 4 health on turn 1 or 2 helps it to survive longer. But also enemy could decide not to kill it on purpose and make use of this card himself. Still this card is mostly for fun, than for practical purpose.

Really? So they're allright with, say, Warlocks having lower representation at higher levels than Rogues? That would be a departure from their typical policies.

Not if Blizzard decide, that Rogues are way to strong and nerf them or Auctioneer.
Warlocks actually were much more popular than Rogue until very recently, but were replaced by them without any help from Blizzard.
Priests were very strong way back then. If you look at the posts on this thread in October or November, you see people saying that they rather concede right away than would play with this fuckers, but after they were nerfed more than half year ago, they almost dissapeared from the top ranks as very few people plays there with them. And these people do it for fun, since Priest has some interesting combos and Shadow Priest deck is pretty unique, and not because they care to be in the top 5/10/15 players. Still this could change, since new Priest card is quite strong and with new cards some Priest's spells like Silence or Mass Silence could turn out to be useful.
Paladins died out several months ago without any nerfs from Blizzard. And since then Blizzard nerfed them even more by making their secrets completely useless.
Frost Mages were also nerfed half year ago and weren't played for a long time. But now it looks like they regain popularity without any help from Blizzard, since now plenty of people playing as Miracle Rogue and Frost Mage is a best counter to this deck.

The only time on my memory, when they buffed someone, was the buff of HUnters. But they did it after overnerfing the whole class. Also with this buff they managed to make it even more powerfull than before, so they nerfed them again.
It won't be developed further, because it needs to stay as casual as possible, so more people play it. Unlike paid CCGs, which survive on each fan spending (a lot of) money on the game, Hearthstone needs a large playerbase, so the 1% of paying players are able to sustain its existence.

But in the same time Heartstone have nothing for tieing players to itself and force them to play it, when they already lost most of interest to the game. Even the ones, who spent money on it, most likely didn't spent them enough for regreting about stopping playing it. At least I can't imagine on what you could spent more than few hundreds $, since with that money one should already had all the cards that he nee. So it should or constantly adding a new players or offering something new when things would became too static.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,721
Saw something that I consider a bug yesterday. Priest can use their hero power to heal, then cast shadowform and use their new hero power to do 2 damage. Double hero power on the same turn.
 

Grinolf

Arcane
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
1,297
Saw something that I consider a bug yesterday. Priest can use their hero power to heal, then cast shadowform and use their new hero power to do 2 damage. Double hero power on the same turn.

Technically is is two different Hero Powers with different names, icons and effects, and also the fact that it was that way since I started playing and Blizzard didn't even make any attempt to change it, make it likely WAD. Priest could use his Hero Power only once, while playing Soulpries, but this hard didn't change Hero Power itself and only it effect, so it also makes sense.

Could be interesting to test if Warlock also could use his Hero Power two times after playing his legendary, but I lack said legendary for doing so.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,721
Warlock would not be able to do that due to mana costs. You would need a board with 3 summoners to test it.
 

Grinolf

Arcane
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
1,297
Warlock would not be able to do that due to mana costs. You would need a board with 3 summoners to test it.
Why not? Coin should be enoug:
Hero Ability -> Coin -> Jaraxxus. You should still see, if you could use your hero power this turn even without having mana to do it.
Or for checking it completely:
Hero Ability -> Coin ->Jaraxxus -> Innervate -> Hero Ability
Or 2 summoners, as you said, could be cheaper alternative to Innervate, since they don't require having a legendary which isn't a very high priority to craft.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,721
Warlock would not be able to do that due to mana costs. You would need a board with 3 summoners to test it.
Why not? Coin should be enoug:
Hero Ability -> Coin -> Jaraxxus. You should still see, if you could use your hero power this turn even without having mana to do it.
Or for checking it completely:
Hero Ability -> Coin ->Jaraxxus -> Innervate -> Hero Ability
Or 2 summoners, as you said, could be cheaper alternative to Innervate, since they don't require having a legendary which isn't a very high priority to craft.
Which card gives a warlock innervate?
 

Grinolf

Arcane
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
1,297
Which card gives a warlock innervate?

456.png


Also getting 3 summoners is also possible to have 3 summoners by copying it with faceless. So with the right cards there are quite a few ways to accomplish it.
 
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J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,721
Which card gives a warlock innervate?

Also getting 3 summoners is also possible to have 3 summoners by copying it with faceless. So with the right cards there are quite a few ways to accomplish it.
Yes, that's what I was implying above. That it would need to be an artificial situation to test.
 

Cowboy Moment

Arcane
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,407
And regarding balance, it's all well that they don't care about it, but it's really fucking annoying that some classes are much better at arena than others. Past like 5-6 wins, I pretty much exclusively play against Paladins with tons of Truesilver Champions, Consecrations, Hammers of Wrath and Argent Protectors; or Mages with 3+ Flamestrikes, Fireballs, Polys, and Water Elementals. Played against a pally today at like 5-1 who had played 3 Consecrations, 2 Truesilver Champions and an Avenging Wrath by turn 9. I won in the end, but come the fuck on.

Only time you meet a Priest or Warlock that high is if they have some kind of lucky deck with a super optimized mana curve or crazy synergies.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,721
And regarding balance, it's all well that they don't care about it, but it's really fucking annoying that some classes are much better at arena than others. Past like 5-6 wins, I pretty much exclusively play against Paladins with tons of Truesilver Champions, Consecrations, Hammers of Wrath and Argent Protectors; or Mages with 3+ Flamestrikes, Fireballs, Polys, and Water Elementals. Played against a pally today at like 5-1 who had played 3 Consecrations, 2 Truesilver Champions and an Avenging Wrath by turn 9. I won in the end, but come the fuck on.

Only time you meet a Priest or Warlock that high is if they have some kind of lucky deck with a super optimized mana curve or crazy synergies.
Both of those are unlikely drafts. The reason you see more paladins and mages with lucky drafts is because people pick them more often.
 

Grinolf

Arcane
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
1,297
And regarding balance, it's all well that they don't care about it, but it's really fucking annoying that some classes are much better at arena than others. Past like 5-6 wins, I pretty much exclusively play against Paladins with tons of Truesilver Champions, Consecrations, Hammers of Wrath and Argent Protectors; or Mages with 3+ Flamestrikes, Fireballs, Polys, and Water Elementals. Played against a pally today at like 5-1 who had played 3 Consecrations, 2 Truesilver Champions and an Avenging Wrath by turn 9. I won in the end, but come the fuck on.

Only time you meet a Priest or Warlock that high is if they have some kind of lucky deck with a super optimized mana curve or crazy synergies.
Yes, mages are overpowered in the arena, but there was posted a statistic which showed that Rogues are equal with them. In fact even slightly better, but I think it's because everyone chooe mage as an easy and straightforward option, but it mostly experienced players who would pick Rogue.
But I don't think Paladin is better at arena, than Priest or Druid or Shaman. Yes, it is suck when Paladin managed to draw bunch of his uber cards like Truesilver or equality combos, but that is true for all these classes. And Shaman who drop a third Fire Elemental in a row against you isn't any more pleasant than Pal with third Truesilver.
Warriors and Warlocks are the ones who suck at the arena. But they very scary when you see them at 10+ wins, which would mean that they managed to draw some constructed like madness.
 

Cowboy Moment

Arcane
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,407
And regarding balance, it's all well that they don't care about it, but it's really fucking annoying that some classes are much better at arena than others. Past like 5-6 wins, I pretty much exclusively play against Paladins with tons of Truesilver Champions, Consecrations, Hammers of Wrath and Argent Protectors; or Mages with 3+ Flamestrikes, Fireballs, Polys, and Water Elementals. Played against a pally today at like 5-1 who had played 3 Consecrations, 2 Truesilver Champions and an Avenging Wrath by turn 9. I won in the end, but come the fuck on.

Only time you meet a Priest or Warlock that high is if they have some kind of lucky deck with a super optimized mana curve or crazy synergies.
Both of those are unlikely drafts. The reason you see more paladins and mages with lucky drafts is because people pick them more often.

People pick them more often because they're better (or easier to play, but Hearthstone in general is pretty easy so that's likely not a major factor). And these aren't so unlikely, as all of those cards are commons, and you pretty much pick them every time you have an opportunity, as they're almost never bad.
 

Grinolf

Arcane
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
1,297
Well there are an idea to make Flamestrike rare, which should put mages on average closer to the other classes. And this idea is reasonable. But going further would be more harmfull. Each class, and not only Mages and Pals, has some very strong basic and common cards, which makes F2P part of the game quite good, because you could beat with epics and legendaried. Making them all rare would make constructed impossible for any new players. And regardless how annoying Water Elemental could be, Yeti is as strong, also basic card and everyone could draw him.
 
Joined
Nov 28, 2011
Messages
6,068
Location
Digger Nick
What do you guys think about Zoo Warlock? I made that deck and now that my Win ratio is 90%, I feel like everybody hates my guts. I also feel kind of lame for doing that, but fuck this shit, I'm winning.

Wish I knew that before I crafted Ragnaros. Raaargh. Any idea where I can throw him/build a deck around him? Shaman, maybe?
 

Anthony Davis

Blizzard Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
2,100
Location
California
We have a Heartstone tourney going on at Obsidian. Well, this is the first one and it's just like 10 of us so far. Best of 3 at each level, double elimination (aka - losers bracket). If you win a match, you cannot change your deck, but the loser can.

I won my first level, which was SHOCKING against an amazing player with super string priest and pally decks.

Next I'm up against an equally strong player - but I have no idea what he is going to play and I have no idea how to prepare for it. My best decks are hunter, rogue and shaman.

I don't know what I'm going to play...


Anyway, didn't mean to just but into the conversations at hand. Just like the game, and other than Culdcept Saga, I am new to CCGs in general.
 

Grinolf

Arcane
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
1,297
Zoo is OK. It is good to see a deck that both very strong and consistent, regulary being on top of the ladder and tournaments, and don't need any epics/legendaries. I saw some Zoo decks with Leeroy, but he isn't that good with cards like Soulfire and Doomguard. And it isn't as brainless as other aggro decks. But I don't see many people playing as them now. And if more people would play as Frost Mage, Zoo would became even rarer.
Personally I don't have much problem with this deck even when it was rampant. But I played as Priest and Shaman and this classes have a very strong AoE at the begining of the game, and also the cards like Earth Shock, Spirit Wolves or 4/7 blademaster on turn 2.

Ragnaros isn't that good for Shamans. In fact the only legendary Shaman need is 2 mana one with a card draw and spell damage. Some are use their class legendary, but it isn't very vital for the deck and cards like Bloodlust or Doomhammer serve mostly the same function.
Ragnaros is used by Druids (But not token ones, since Cenarius is much better for them), Priests, Control Paladins, Control Warriors or Control Mages. But these decks or isn't very popular or require much more aside from Ragnaros. It fact I thought to even stop using him, because it was already a some time when he survived at least one turn. But he turned out to be a very good against Frost Mages. It was hilarious to see how helpless they are against him: he don't care about Freeze effect, and he don't activate their secrets like vaporize and frost armor, and they need to waste at least 2 spells to deal with him because they don't use Polymorph. So he is worth having in case there would be tons of them.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,721
Build a shockadin deck. Easy to play and when you use double divine favor to draw 12 cards your opponent will be frustrated into mistakes.
 
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Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,721
Location
Copenhagen
Why are you still playing Cowboy Moment? I thought the game was too boring to play?

What do you guys think about Zoo Warlock? I made that deck and now that my Win ratio is 90%, I feel like everybody hates my guts. I also feel kind of lame for doing that, but fuck this shit, I'm winning.

Wish I knew that before I crafted Ragnaros. Raaargh. Any idea where I can throw him/build a deck around him? Shaman, maybe?

My picks for best decks right now are Warlock Zoo, Warrior Control and Miracle Rogue. People are doing all sorts of weird shit now and calling it awesome, but those three still work as well as they ever did.

I play Warlock Zoo mostly since Warrior Control is so expensive, but I only need 4 cards now (2 of them legendaries) before I can start doing bullshit with that deck. I think it's somewhat healthy that Zoo is a good deck, since just about everybody can make it.
 
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Cowboy Moment

Arcane
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,407
Why are you still playing Cowboy Moment? I thought the game was too boring to play?

It's boring to play if I treat it as a proper TCG with a focus on constructed. On the other hand, it works perfectly when played on a second monitor while browsing the web or doing some other boring crap that requires distractions. I can only imagine it's good on a tablet while lying in bed as well, although I don't have an iPad to test. Also, it works very well in Wine, so I'm playing it right now at work while waiting for some other people to get their shit together.

It's way too shallow as a serious hobby, but very good as a time waster or distraction, which I imagine is what they were going for. I expect to get bored of arena eventually as well, but that time has not arrived yet.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,721
Location
Copenhagen
Why are you still playing Cowboy Moment? I thought the game was too boring to play?

It's boring to play if I treat it as a proper TCG with a focus on constructed. On the other hand, it works perfectly when played on a second monitor while browsing the web or doing some other boring crap that requires distractions. I can only imagine it's good on a tablet while lying in bed as well, although I don't have an iPad to test.

Both of those are the exact ways I'm playing it. Many Vintage Masters breaks between rounds are spiced up by Hearthstone during this summer break.
 

Jozoz

Prophet
Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
452
Location
69
I am really excited for Naxx. I'm basically an arena only player. I really hope the new cards will make Mage less prevalent in Arena. It's by far the most brainless class and it's a big chore to play against.

Fuck mages. Preferably with a burning stick.

I am a big fan of Shaman in arena, but I can't get to 12 wins. I have gotten 11 wins five times or so, but I always lose the last one. Shit sucks yo
 
Joined
Nov 28, 2011
Messages
6,068
Location
Digger Nick
I play mostly as a Warlock and D/E everything else, except for Shaman and Hunter. So today I got, out of booster pack, my second legendary, Al'Akir the Windlord for Shaman - pretty cool. The first one was Velen for Priest but I hated it, and I needed dust to craft a Ragnaros.

So I want to check him out.

One of the battles happens to be a druid. My deck has super late-game bombs, which in Shaman's case means it's shitty for now, so I was playing defensively for the whole time.

My turn (8 mana): I play Ragnaros the Firelord. If someone doesn't know, he's 8 mana, 8/8 stats. Can't attack, but at the end of he turn, he blasts random enemy with 8 damage fireball. Don't remember what it hits.

Druid turn (8 mana): Druid has Ragnaros as well, plays him. It hits me.

My turn (9 mana): I play Ironbeak Owl and silence my Ragnaros - he loses his ability but can attack manually now. Then I buff Ragnaros with Windfury and troll the druid with this fun 16 damage to his face :smug: With spare mana, I summon a totem. Happens to be the Air Totem that boosts spell damage.

Druid turn (9 mana): He Faceless Manipulators my Ragnaros, but without its silence etc. There are 3x Ragnaros on the board now.

At the end of the turn, one Ragnaros randomly kills my Ragnaros and the other hits me, leaving me with 4 HP.

My turn (10 mana): I play Al'Akir the Windlord. Druid has 9 HP and 1 Armor. I hit him for 6 damage with Al'Akir, and cast Lightning Bolt for *4*.

I win :smug:

Why didn't I make a screen :negative:
 

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