Historical Revisionism in Video Game and it's consequences have been a disaster for the human race.

[Halfling Rodeo]

if you're using to 1080p for your RTS games.

seeing how the hayday of RTS was before 1080p displays were a thing, it just shows how retarded you are.

in essence what you are saying is that you like console games more than PC games, that's your personal opinion on it, don't generalize.

Some days I think you need to drop the bethes bit of your forum title..

I am saying some games we have fond memories for have limitations that may ruin the experience now. This applies to console and PC games. I played Red Alert on the PS1 and had a pretty good time of it back in the day. I doubt I would enjoy playing it that way today.

 

[Vic]

not only are you retarded but you are also a no-lifer, getting into arguments with you is a waste of time

 

[Viata]

Man, when you have a fuckton of good games released on MSX, C64, Specy (I really love R-Type for this machine, damn), Amiga, DOS and even Apple ][, it's funny when people say old PC(and by this I mean retro computers + PC) games are not fun like old consoles. And that is ignoring how these machines are still getting new games every year. But alas, all but one were not big in Japan so your average youtuber has no interest in them. And the average youtuber doesn't know Japanese, otherwise he would be praising PC-88, PC-98 and Sharp X68k.
In a world where games like Ultima 4 exist, we have youtube videos like this being created:

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

Man, when you have a fuckton of good games released on MSX, C64, Specy (I really love R-Type for this machine, damn), Amiga, DOS and even Apple ][, it's funny when people say old PC(and by this I mean retro computers + PC) games are not fun like old consoles. And that is ignoring how these machines are still getting new games every year. But alas, all but one were not big in Japan so your average youtuber has no interest in them. And the average youtuber doesn't know Japanese, otherwise he would be praising PC-88, PC-98 and Sharp X68k.

Going through old Amiga and C64 platformers is fun. It's a great weekend to load up emulation station and hit random over and over or scroll until you find something weird and interesting.

Do you remember what Amiga game starts with your family being murdered in really graphic detail? I want to say it's a penguin game and a cat or a bear does a home invasion and kills everyone.

 

[Silverfish]

not only are you retarded but you are also a no-lifer

That's very unlikely for a CRPG message board.

 

[Vic]

not only are you retarded but you are also a no-lifer

That's very unlikely for a CRPG message board.

most people just post casually, but some spend all day here, it's like with competitive online gaming, if you wanna be on their level you have to sacrifice too much, not worth it

 

[Viata]

Do you remember what Amiga game starts with your family being murdered in really graphic detail?

No, but I'm very interested in it now.

 

[Nutmeg]

The Mega Drive's early promotion was all about arcade ports and sports games, but the pack in games were Revenge of Shinobi, Streets of rage and Sonic along side Golden axe. Not denying arcade ports sold consoles, but a lot of people were saying I can't wait to play Sonic 2, Streets of rage 2 or Ecco the dolphin. It's all arcade style games, but they're console originals.

Some of the Mega Drive's best games are ports.

I'm a big fan of the ports of Mercs, Ghouls 'n Ghosts, Forgotten Worlds, which are still worth playing for various reasons today. Then there were some excellent Toaplan ports -- Slapfight, Hellfire, Fire Shark and Twin Cobra. Out of Western games, Gauntlet and Rampart got excellent, excellent ports. Speaking of these strategy-lite titles, I'm very fond of Telenet's (I believe) port of Sega's Gain Ground. Finally there's a good port of Namco's Marvel Land.

The PC Engine was also a beast when it came to arcade ports.

 

[Viata]

Loved to play Devil Crash MD on MD. This song is still among my favorites for that console:

 

[Nutmeg]

Ah yes Devil Crash. A Technosoft port to the Mega Drive of a Compile game for the PC Engine, published by Naxat and RED. It's like a who's who of Japanese PC devs who switched over to 16-bit, just missing Ancient or Falcom.

 

[Nutmeg]

Everyone should play Mercs' original mode for the Mega Drive. Stealth arcade format party-based ARPG with gameplay meaningful choices and consequences (rationing the limited upgrade pool between your squad members). No hanging around town in this one. The only respite you'll get is with the shopkeeper girl in the tents scattered on the war trail. Shame they removed the timer and didn't pay attention to the score values. There could have been some juicy and difficult boss milks! Par on course for home gaming of the time though.



Dat BGM. Make sure to pump the difficulty up to *secret* for the extra carnage.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

Do you remember what Amiga game starts with your family being murdered in really graphic detail?

No, but I'm very interested in it now.

Trying to recall what it was. I think it may have been a rabbit game now? Rabbit comes home, hangs up his coat and briefcase and a fox or a bear breaks in with a shotgun and wasted his wife and kids. I think it was a 2d platformer? Going to bug me til I find out.

Everyone should play Mercs' original mode for the Mega Drive. Stealth arcade format party-based ARPG with gameplay meaningful choices and consequences (rationing the limited upgrade pool between your squad members). No hanging around town in this one. The only respite you'll get is with the shopkeeper girl in the tents scattered on the war trail. Shame they removed the timer and didn't pay attention to the score values. There could have been some juicy and difficult boss milks! Par on course for home gaming of the time though.



Dat BGM. Make sure to pump the difficulty up to *secret* for the extra carnage.

Are there any other games that turn shoot 'em ups into RPG lites?

 

[Nutmeg]

Are there any other games that turn shoot 'em ups into RPG lites?

Ah yes, a topic dear to my heart. To answer the question, unfortunately, no. At least either not to the extent that Mercs' original mode does, or not in so obvious a way.

That said, Forgotten Worlds has a shop, as do many other shmups (even the Gradius power up system is essentially a shop), I especially like Mr. Heli's take, where you break stage terrain to reveal purchasable items. Mr. Heli also gives the player a fair amount of freedom of movement in most stages, which, combined with the item hunting gives a feeling of exploration.

Winds of Thunder has a between stage shop and flexible stage order i.e. non linearity in ARPG terms. Any gems you don't spend become score at the end, and the game actually has sound scoring, a rarity in the 16-bit era. Elemental Master has flexible stage order, and you acquire a new weapon and more HP by completing each of the first four stages. Both games do the Dungeons and Dragons aesthetic very well, IMO.

Armed Police Batrider has party management, resource management, flexible stage order, and a bunch of triggers, but you might miss it from a distance -- you will notice how big a role all of these play only once you start taking the game seriously -- actually I think that Armed Police Batrider is mechanically, at least as much of an ARPG than Mercs' original mode, with the notable absence of any permanent power ups.

Twinkle Tale has the Dungeons and Dragons aesthetic and some Zelda 1 like dungeon crawling. Sorcer Striker has just the Dungeons and Dragons aesthetic, but it's so good it deserves a mention on that basis alone.

Deathsmiles has the aesthetic, flexible stage order (and rank!), and arguably levelling up -- the way you get more HP is a bit different from shmup extends, because it's the character's max HP that increases, and there are separate (secret) items for replenishing HP.

Speaking of permanent power ups, there's Batsugun and Radiant Silvergun where you gain XP from killing enemies and level up your shot(s). Radiant Silvergun' Saturn port, in particular, can be played in the (inferior) dungeon crawling format, where weapon level power ups are permanent between runs.

Finally, I need to mention Dimahoo, the second sequel to Sorcer Striker, which has an equipment set collection system for scoring where, of course, the equipment also affects the character's stats and other aspects of the game, IIRC. Out of all the games listed, this is the one I spent the least time with.

Now, coming from the ARPG side of things there are the Napishtim engine Ys games i.e. Ys Oath in Felghana, Ys Origin and of course, but to a lesser extent, Ys 6 itself, which all carry much of the shmup ethos. Outside of Ys there's Nier and especially Nier Automata, which even opens with a shmup section, though unlike the Ys games these are very sloppy w.r.t. their action, still worth mentioning for being an obvious love letter to shmups.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

Slightly off topic here for a moment, but I'm pretty uninformed about SHMUPS, I just dabbled in some Giga Wing/Zero Gunner on the Dreamcast, and the sci-fi art used to attract me to magazine pictures of stuff like Gradius and R-Type - how are this guy's top 30?



Any particular newb reccomendations or tips for beginners?

 

[Nutmeg]

how are this guy's top 30?

It's fine, obviously everyone's tastes are different, so my list would look quite different (actually there's only about 5 games I have in common with him in my top 30), but every game he lists is solid.

Any particular newb reccomendations or tips for beginners?

Look up a difficulty list and find an easy game whose aesthetics you like -- i.e. music and visuals, and check that it has a good reputation. This list is good. Make sure to check the 16-bit section as well. Then aim to 1CC the game (1 Credit Clear i.e. clear the game without continues). Of course, you can use extra credits to practice, or save states, or whatever, but you haven't beaten the game until you've 1CC'd it. A shmup is usually only 10 minutes to 1 hour long, but they're designed to be played for 10+ hours before you get the clear, depending on your skill level. Even for very good players, with many 1CCs under their belt, the very difficult ones can take 100+ hours before they get a clear. But these are 100+ hours of pure tactical action, resource management, learning and challenge. Pure, condensed, distilled gameplay.

For example, I still consider myself a beginner, and I have about a dozen easy and medium 1CCs under my belt. These days it takes me around 5-10 hours to get a 1CC for an easier game, and about 20-30 hours to get a clear on a medium difficulty game, but it took me 40 hours to get my first 1CC for a game considered extremely easy by more experienced players (it was Sylphia, don't laugh it took me that long!).

Finally, don't be afraid to switch games every now and then to explore the genre and settle on something you really like if you're not feeling it with the first game you chose to chase the 1CC with.

If you want an off the top of my head recommendation for a good beginner's arcade 1CC, Batsugun Special with Beltiana, or Raiden Fighters 2 with the Fairy secret character. They are both well designed, almost flawless games (the former, only arguably flawed, and only when playing for score).

Feel free to use autofire. There's only a few games where it's arguably cheating instead of a player health measure.

I myself cut my teeth on Compile 16-bit games, though they are not very well designed in retrospect (basically, for the most part, there's no rhyme or reason with the stage layouts or enemy patterns, it's all just spam, you're also spammed with resources to hide the extremely volatile difficulty). As a beginner, you won't be able to notice, so you can go down this route if you wish, as they're all very appealing aesthetically. Even so, I'd recommend Elemental Master and Soldier Blade first, for something Compile-like, but with a good majority of the bad design removed.

 

[Nutmeg]

I didn't have the luxury when I got into the genre, but these days there are nice video 1CC guides, where you can pick up on the way you need to approach these games. It's definitely worth watching one or two as a beginner to get the mindset, even if it's for a game you won't play any time soon.



I don't know if it's a good idea for a beginner to pick a more difficult shmup, aiming to clear it by following the advice in one of these guides. I wouldn't think so. I think better might be to get a natural 1CC on an easy game first, then maybe try this for a second game you really want to play but might feel is beyond your skill otherwise.

Also worth mentioning is a lot of harder shmups have some affordances for learning. Like Armed Police Batrider has an Easy and Normal course, in addition to Advanced (the actual game), and a Special course for learning the bosses. Deathsmiles has rank select and flexible stage order. Even though these are hard and medium shmups, I feel like a determined beginner who likes them aesthetically could get a lot out of them without having to build up their skill elsewhere.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

how are this guy's top 30?

It's fine, obviously everyone's tastes are different, so my list would look quite different (actually there's only about 5 games I have in common with him in my top 30), but every game he lists is solid.

Any particular newb reccomendations or tips for beginners?

Look up a difficulty list and find an easy game whose aesthetics you like -- i.e. music and visuals, and check that it has a good reputation. This list is good. Make sure to check the 16-bit section as well. Then aim to 1CC the game (1 Credit Clear i.e. clear the game without continues). Of course, you can use extra credits to practice, or save states, or whatever, but you haven't beaten the game until you've 1CC'd it. A shmup is usually only 10 minutes to 1 hour long, but they're designed to be played for 10+ hours before you get the clear, depending on your skill level. Even for very good players, with many 1CCs under their belt, the very difficult ones can take 100+ hours before they get a clear. But these are 100+ hours of pure tactical action, resource management, learning and challenge. Pure, condensed, distilled gameplay.

For example, I still consider myself a beginner, and I have about a dozen easy and medium 1CCs under my belt. These days it takes me around 5-10 hours to get a 1CC for an easier game, and about 20-30 hours to get a clear on a medium difficulty game, but it took me 40 hours to get my first 1CC for a game considered extremely easy by more experienced players (it was Sylphia, don't laugh it took me that long!).

Finally, don't be afraid to switch games every now and then to explore the genre and settle on something you really like if you're not feeling it with the first game you chose to chase the 1CC with.

If you want an off the top of my head recommendation for a good beginner's arcade 1CC, Batsugun Special with Beltiana, or Raiden Fighters 2 with the Fairy secret character. They are both well designed, almost flawless games (the former, only arguably flawed, and only when playing for score).

Feel free to use autofire. There's only a few games where it's arguably cheating instead of a player health measure.

I myself cut my teeth on Compile 16-bit games, though they are not very well designed in retrospect (basically, for the most part, there's no rhyme or reason with the stage layouts or enemy patterns, it's all just spam, you're also spammed with resources to hide the extremely volatile difficulty). As a beginner, you won't be able to notice, so you can go down this route if you wish, as they're all very appealing aesthetically. Even so, I'd recommend Elemental Master and Soldier Blade first, for something Compile-like, but with a good majority of the bad design removed.

Thanks, thats a good writeup, thanks for taking the time. I had a look at early Arcade and Megadrive shmups a few years back, wanting to play ones I had seen as a kid. Putting together a list, it included stuff like Gradius, R-Type, Truxton, Thunder Force III, Thunder Force IV, MUSHA. In terms of aesthetics I like ones that look like military or science fiction equipment. Raiden and Battle Garegga look nice to me. I got along best with Truxton, and found Gradius/R-Type both too hard.

I did play Giga Wing on Dreamcast decades ago, but probably just used tons of credits, as I barely knew what I was doing, and accidentally came across bullet hell not knowing it was a genre. Zero Gunner and Under Defeat were quite interesting too.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

I didn't have the luxury when I got into the genre, but these days there are nice video 1CC guides, where you can pick up on the way you need to approach these games. It's definitely worth watching one or two as a beginner to get the mindset, even if it's for a game you won't play any time soon.

Watching a video guide on how to 1cc totally removes the point of 1ccing a game. They're generally pretty simple games where the key is learning how to avoid things and if you're using a youtube guide to do it you're removing a huge element in 1ccing IMO. I generally don't consider 1ccing an arcade game to be worth it, but the ones I do I would mock any one using a guide like this. It's basically cheating instead of finding your own solutions.

 

[Nutmeg]

Watching a video guide on how to 1cc totally removes the point of 1ccing a game. They're generally pretty simple games where the key is learning how to avoid things and if you're using a youtube guide to do it you're removing a huge element in 1ccing IMO

Ok. Let me know how long it takes you to 1CC Ibara after watching the video.

 

[Nutmeg]

Under Defeat

One of my favorites. Great ground lock reticle shooter, descending from Dragon Spirit, Twinbee and Rayforce as much as from Twin Cobra and Gyrodine. Being a Naomi native, it's from the clean and clear era of middle 3D, and to my eyes looks gorgeous to this day either emulated at 480p with a CRT shader, or at higher resolutions if you're playing one of the later ports. I especially enjoy the excellent pyrotechnics, especially the bomb which harkens back to the seminal Gun Frontier. Game gets very real stage 3 onwards, though already the stage 2 boss is no slouch. Don't be afraid to use your bombs.

In terms of aesthetics I like ones that look like military or science fiction equipment

Ditto. Next to all the Seibu classics belonging to the Raiden series and the "Raiden" Fighters series (which is not actually related to Raiden except by hidden cameo ships -- the series was originally meant to be titled Gun Dogs) as well as the one-off Viper Phase 1, are their Toaplan developed ancestors Flying Shark, Twin Cobra and Fire Shark. If you give them a go, make sure to play the superior Japanese market versions, Hishouzame, Kyukyoku Tiger and Same! Same! Same!. Generally, with a few exceptions of course, the Japanese version of a shmup is always the preferred version. In this case, because the US and European versions don't pan the background. Gone are the screen edge sniper tanks and boats removing a huge portion of the games' tactical play.

I place a few NMK games like Thunder Dragon 2 and Gunnail in the same aesthetic category. Flawed in terms of scoring, and uneven in terms of difficulty, there's NMK's first Macross as well, though in this case a bit of (tasteful) anime creeps up in between stages (much like in Under Defeat), which is to be expected as it is a Macross game after all. The second Macross is an excellent game too, considered by many as NMK's best, but the art is slightly less serious. Speaking of anime characters in otherwise serious games, if your tolerance for that sort of thing is high, and you can put up with far more amateur in-between stage character art than is present in the Macross games, you can add NMK's P-47 Aces to the list. Visually the game boasts gorgeous pixel art backgrounds, large, detailed, stage enemies based on WW2 era aircraft designs, multiple screen spanning mega bosses, and surprisingly advanced effects for the time like turrets being lit by their own fire. P-47 Aces Mark 2 is a recent expanded re-release (literally expanded to a 16:9 aspect ratio) that redoes the character art to something much less amateur. Coincidentally enough the redone art is by one of the actual Macross animators, IIRC. Sadly, the game is currently confined exclusively to the rare Exa Arcadia platform. Either find one near you, or fork up $6000+ and desk or closet space for the privilege.

Some might cite the Strikers 1945 games here, but they miss the mark for me. Aesthetically, maybe (certainly weaker than anything from Seibu, Toaplan or NMK), but in terms of gameplay most definitely. That said, it is highly likely a case of "mad cause bad" on my part -- I found Strikers 1945 2's medalling extremely neurotic. It's the same reason I can't stand many other Psikyo games, or Raiden DX which adopts a similar system, but not its prequel Raiden 2, which is cruel on recovery, but otherwise plays like a dream.

Now, most people would disagree with me, but in addition to Battle Garegga, which you mentioned, I would also include Yagawa's Ibara, Pink Sweets and Muchi Muchi Pork. The first, is not much of a stretch, though obviously there's a bit less grounded stylization creeping in, not to mention cringe panty shots and other fragments of Japanese nerd culture. Pink Sweets on the other hand, fits perfectly if you take its world as real -- a real world dystopia terrorized by saccharine mechanical nightmares made to look like friendly retro children's toy robots, speaking as to the psychology of their maker. Muchi Muchi Pork, likewise, for its militarily repurposed large agricultural machinery designed to process humans turned pig-men into meat. More conservatively you could include Battle Bakraid, but it has an unfinished and inconsistent feel to its art that makes me hesitant.

Circling back to the topic of beginner shmups, the aforementioned Hishouzame is a masterclass in shmup play and design. The arcade original is suitable for an ambitious beginner. Likewise the Mega Drive port of Same! Same! Same! and the PC Engine port of Kyukyoku Tiger, for more friendly remixes of the brutal and tough as nails arcade originals respectively. Explicitly checkpoint centered stage design (as per developer interviews) in each mean you can learn by credit feeding.

 

[Falksi]

Loved to play Devil Crash MD on MD. This song is still among my favorites for that console:

Top taste, funnily enough I'm sat right next to my Jap copy as we speak

Slightly off topic here for a moment, but I'm pretty uninformed about SHMUPS, I just dabbled in some Giga Wing/Zero Gunner on the Dreamcast, and the sci-fi art used to attract me to magazine pictures of stuff like Gradius and R-Type - how are this guy's top 30?



Any particular newb reccomendations or tips for beginners?

Thunderforce 3.

Seriously, whatever you get recommended you simply have to play Thunderforce 3 (the SEGA Megadrive version, not the garbage AC or revamps which cut all the best stages out).

Thunderforce 3 is a strong contender for best game ever with me. It's very easy to get into, it's normal difficulty is very forgiving for noobs, but then Hard difficulty changes things up EXACTLY how difficulties should change up....adjusted enemy patterns instead of HP bloat, and rule changes too (on Normal you only lose the weapon which you're currently using when dying, however on Hard or higher you lose all weapons)....and Mania provides a really nice meaty challenge too. It still remains one of the easier SHMUPs even on Mania, but there's still plenty to get your teeth into on those higher settings, even for vets.

Think of it as the Super Mario World of SHMUPs, but with extra difficulty settings. Super Mario World is awesome for noobs to retro gaming as it's super-playable, hits all the right notes aesthetically, but is also very forgiving. Thunderforce 3 is just that but it has more depth than Super Mario World because of the adjustments on Hard & Mania.

My other faves include Hellfire (SEGA Megadrive version), Forgotten Worlds (SEGA Megadrive version), Battle Garegga (either Saturn or Arcade), MUSHA, Afterburner 2 (SEGA Megadrive version), UN Squadron (SNES version)....but there's loads more.

Troubleshooter 2, also known as Battlemania 2, is another awesome beginner SHMUP which gets overlooked. Be sure to adjust your controls to 8-way.

Honestly, SHMUPs are fucking ace. I love most genres, but it's criminal that SHMUPs get so little love due to the hobby now being polluted with skill-issued casuals who break at anything more than a baby-level platformer. Good on you for taking the dive.

 

[Nutmeg]

Troubleshooter 2, also known as Battlemania 2, is another awesome beginner SHMUP which gets overlooked. Be sure to adjust your controls to 8-way.

One of my first 1CCs (maybe the 2nd?). Bubblegum Crisis in Japanese suburbia turned pixel art. Gorgeous game. Very chunky hitbox. Actually I like playing it in 2 way mode as well.

 

[Great Deceiver]

I didn't have the luxury when I got into the genre, but these days there are nice video 1CC guides, where you can pick up on the way you need to approach these games. It's definitely worth watching one or two as a beginner to get the mindset, even if it's for a game you won't play any time soon.

Watching a video guide on how to 1cc totally removes the point of 1ccing a game. They're generally pretty simple games where the key is learning how to avoid things and if you're using a youtube guide to do it you're removing a huge element in 1ccing IMO. I generally don't consider 1ccing an arcade game to be worth it, but the ones I do I would mock any one using a guide like this. It's basically cheating instead of finding your own solutions.

You're an incredibly retarded twat, it's simply amazing how fucking wrong you are 100% of the time. Every single one of your posts from this thread should be Retardo'ed for posterity. It's uncanny, actually.

 

[Great Deceiver]

Forgotten Worlds (SEGA Megadrive version)

Make sure to check out the PCE-CD version if you haven't yet. It's a considerable upgrade from the MD version (much better backgrounds, less flicker - although parallax scrolling takes a hit), and the redbook soundtrack is cool, although a matter of preference. Playing it on an actual PCE with the original 2-button controller must have been pretty bad, but fortunately they made a 3-button pad available (it was a pack-in with the game originally) and with emulation it's a non issue.

I have very fond memories of Forgotten Worlds as it was one of the first games I bought on the Genesis in '89. Played it to death.

 

[Great Deceiver]

Slightly off topic here for a moment, but I'm pretty uninformed about SHMUPS, I just dabbled in some Giga Wing/Zero Gunner on the Dreamcast, and the sci-fi art used to attract me to magazine pictures of stuff like Gradius and R-Type - how are this guy's top 30?



Any particular newb reccomendations or tips for beginners?

Although I like Mark's channel, he's a little pedantic sometimes and his videos are too long, I don't like the rambling style.

For a beginner, I'd recommend Shmup Junkie's channel. Lots of cool videos there (also long, but filled with content and to the point instead of rambling and meandering) and although a skilled player in his own right, he has a more down to earth approach and his style is much more direct. I like him. He's even producing a Toaplan documentary.