Homeworld Series

[Perkel]

Perkel I have installed the Players Patch. Should I get anything else if I want a vanilla-ish epxerience? What is the mod which removes rubberbanding completely?

Nope you don't need anything else if you want to play vanilla campaigns. They adjusted rubberbanding and it is now fixed mostly for H1. H2 has obscene amount of it but that is how game was released.

As for rubberbanding scaling here is the mod. You can adjust how much of it you want making game harder or easier for both H1 and H2. If you are using GOG version use Workshop Downloader.

Once you are done with both campaigns try Complex (or bilion other overhauls on workshop)

I don't get Cata love.

Imho it has better atmosphere than even H1. H1 presented you with mystery of space, as you go you met various races and weird parts of cosmos but by the end of your journey you arrive at your destination you don't feel dread anymore. Cata takes that concept and further enhances it making space even more unknown place where you really think things are out there that you shouldn't ever meet and space exploration is actually dangerous.

This concept of space that is full of mystery and unknown is what i love the most about Homeworld series and Cata took that concept and used it better than H1.

Aliens movie had in back similar concept. Colonial marines were group that supported effort of humanity to colonize planets and they outright said that space in their view is full of danger.

 

[jebsmoker]

I don't get Cata love.

It's a well-written (by the hysterical madmen that formed Kerberos Studios amazingly enough) side-story with fun missions and tight gameplay. Level design is unarguably better than HW2, the changes in gameplay can be debated but they're often fun and its plot of "bunch of miners fuck up massively for greed and choose to solve the problem with MASSIVE SIEGE CANNON" is great compared to "MUH DESTINY OF RANDOM MUMBOJUMBO MYSTICISM" of HW2.

It's a good expansion, so people will remember it fondly. Energy weapons (like Super Acolytes) come in quite late, and no one cares about moving backgrounds or space crystals in a sci-fi game. A legit complaint is that the Kiith's ships are super weird (everything bar three-four ships has nonstandard uses) but that also reinforces the idea that you are a bunch of amateurs.

But again, it's mostly by comparison. HW1 is "epic" in scale, Cata is smaller, dirtier, shows what happens after the unity of purpose of HW1 ends and people start backstabbing and getting poor again.

it's also the greatest - and only - horror-themed rts ever made. i didn't expect an rts game to occupy the niche of horror well, but cataclysm somehow does it and does so extremely well

 

[Draxylon]

Btw, anyone have the manuals for HW1 &2? Some time ago I found one but has mixed orientation pages. I don't know if there is a better scanned version.

Like this?

http://sierrachest.com/gfx/games/Homeworld/box/manual.pdf

I'm not entirely sure if HW2's manuals are useful, all the setting&background fluff were dumped in some thrice damned guide that no one scanned and I jave never found.

Thank you. Sadly is the same version I have. Anyway, I'll edit the file and if I manage to fix it up I will share it.

 

[DraQ]

I don't get Cata love.

It's a well-written (by the hysterical madmen that formed Kerberos Studios amazingly enough) side-story with fun missions and tight gameplay.

I don't really count it as that well written, TBH.

It's a bit of a Mary-Sue fanfic (bringing vastly outgunned exiles from their exterminatus'd world to their ancestral home while bumping off evil emprah and fracturing his massive interstellar empire? Pfft, hold my beer and watch this previously insignificant kiith save the fucking galaxy!) with evil space jelly Borg.
Workable and even enjoyable but neither terribly good nor original.

It's a good expansion, so people will remember it fondly. Energy weapons (like Super Acolytes) come in quite late

And yet they ruin the gameplay even harder than HW2's fake ballistics.
What's left of it after SUs, in any case. Seriously, it's every gun now shoots homing missiles level of broken (because it's what it does) in a game where a lot of units are only viable because they are hard to hit.

and no one cares about moving backgrounds or space crystals in a sci-fi game.

I do and you should too.
If you don't then it's only because you are incapable of grasping how massively fucking wrong it is.

You know how even on intuitive level you can instinctively judge how massive something is based on how slow and ponderous it seems? For example take the difference between grenade just going *BANG!* and majestic rise of a nuclear mushroom cloud.
Now imagine how utterly insignificant both are to events so mindbogglingly huge that they occupy large swathes of sky where entire solar systems wouldn't even occupy full pixel against their backdrop.
There?
Good.
Now imagine this shit animated on the order of seconds!

How the fuck is it not a pulp-perpetrator's-face-with-a-fucking-warhammer grade of bad?

A legit complaint is that the Kiith's ships are super weird (everything bar three-four ships has nonstandard uses) but that also reinforces the idea that you are a bunch of amateurs.

I like super weird units, what I don't like is the complete absence of normal ones.

But again, it's mostly by comparison. HW1 is "epic" in scale, Cata is smaller, dirtier, shows what happens after the unity of purpose of HW1 ends and people start backstabbing and getting poor again.

And then you save the galaxy from hyperspace borg jelly and are hailed as saviour.

Nope you don't need anything else if you want to play vanilla campaigns. They adjusted rubberbanding and it is now fixed mostly for H1. H2 has obscene amount of it but that is how game was released.

As for rubberbanding scaling here is the mod. You can adjust how much of it you want making game harder or easier for both H1 and H2.

Does it have a HW1 setting? HW1 had pretty rubberbanding - if only because so few people actually noticed it.

Imho it has better atmosphere than even H1. H1 presented you with mystery of space, as you go you met various races and weird parts of cosmos but by the end of your journey you arrive at your destination you don't feel dread anymore. Cata takes that concept and further enhances it making space even more unknown place where you really think things are out there that you shouldn't ever meet and space exploration is actually dangerous.

This concept of space that is full of mystery and unknown is what i love the most about Homeworld series and Cata took that concept and used it better than H1.

I wouldn't say that Cata generally had better atmosphere, but this part is something it actually did quite well.

it's also the greatest - and only - horror-themed rts ever made. i didn't expect an rts game to occupy the niche of horror well, but cataclysm somehow does it and does so extremely well

That's actually an interesting niche to fill.

Does Myth series count with their armies of undead cyclically wiping civilized world? Also, if Cata counts, then it seems that so should StarCraft.

 

[Perkel]

Does it have a HW1 setting? HW1 had pretty rubberbanding - if only because so few people actually noticed it.

It does like i said. And yeah H1 rubberbanding indeed is barely noticeable.

 

[Dayyālu]

Workable and even enjoyable but neither terribly good nor original.

B-moviesh at best, but the baseline writing (what the people say, the development of ze plot - like the Taiidaani remnants following pretender Emperors and routinely attacking Hiigara to prove their claim and helping the Blob to get it back out of despair, the Spesh Pirates fucking you up, the Bentusi going postal) are all better vignettes than the frankly barebones HW1 narration.

HW1 has better ambience without doubt, and some scenes are strikingly emotional, but as HW2 proves they're mostly flukes. Cata has better basic writing, HW1 has better overall arching themes and plot.

What's left of it after SUs, in any case. Seriously, it's every gun now shoots homing missiles level of broken (because it's what it does) in a game where a lot of units are only viable because they are hard to hit.

No one cares. You get energy weapons insanely late, Super Acolytes just to deal with the Blob Mothership and by the time you get to energy weapons you have few battles left and mostly against nonstandard enemies. The supply limit and the abundant Taidaani Beast Cruisers make the point that small craft have little chances of survival in late missions.

NOOO BUT I WANT TO PLAY WITH STRIKE CRAFT IN THE LAST MISSIONS TOO

Hell, I understand, but it ain't how it's going to be.

If you don't then it's only because you are incapable of grasping how massively fucking wrong it is.

You explain this on every Cata thread (it's the fourth-fifth time I've read this). No offense, but we're talking computer vydia artists. No one cares. Seriously. You're probably the only one in the entire planet, and I'm hard pressed to even rememeber Cata's backgrounds.

That's actually an interesting niche to fill.

Does Myth series count with their armies of undead cyclically wiping civilized world? Also, if Cata counts, then it seems that so should StarCraft.

No RTS mission unnerved me so as the Cata refugee mission. It's a mixture of the sound effects, the set-up (if you are taken in by the game, of course). Kid me was seriously spooked by the screams.

Starcraft is too cartoony, Myth has another kind of fear (more like baseline despair, everything is going to shit and it ain't getting better, the fear of silence and emptiness). I'd argue that the horror of Myth and Cata is flat-out opposite: one is the cheap horror of living flesh and screams, the other of hordes of dead flesh and silence.

 

[mikaelis]

Btw, anyone have the manuals for HW1 &2? Some time ago I found one but has mixed orientation pages. I don't know if there is a better scanned version.

Like this?

http://sierrachest.com/gfx/games/Homeworld/box/manual.pdf

I'm not entirely sure if HW2's manuals are useful, all the setting&background fluff were dumped in some thrice damned guide that no one scanned and I jave never found.

Like this one?:

https://archive.org/details/Homeworld_2_Prima_Official_eGuide/mode/2up

There is some background but also not a lot.

 

[circuit breaker]

I don't get Cata love.
I mean story is OK, if a bit stale, some ships are neat (Kuun-Lan and its sister ship are probably the best designed ships in Cata) and you can shoot massive siege cannon, but OTOH ship design is much worse overall, SU mechanics limits you to one small doomstack at the end, energy cannons home in for just as disastrous gameplay effect as HW2's lack of ballistics, you have derpy space crystals out of nowhere, and backdrops don't convey sense of place (due to being randumb, with nearly no sense of logical progression) and THEY FUCKING BLINK!
Jesus, I really wish the person who came up with the idea of shimmering astronomical backdrops to be ran over by a fucking freight train.
Repeatedly.

Cata gets points for trying to innovate instead of being Just Another Sequel.

Story was fun and unexpected.
Cheesy Siege Cannon vs. cheesy BEAST MODE. I don't know if the bug when you are moving the ship in a certain way and try to fire the Siege Cannon, the shot collides with the barrel and detonates is still in?
Ship design tried to go in new directions. Mimic, leech, sentinel, hive frigate...
Yeah, Energy Cannon is weird, they have shorter range than plain projectiles, I think.
Crystals were also innovative, you could detonate them in your enemies' faces.

I enjoyed the backdrops, but not the blinking.
And I hate the slipgates.

But I very much like the improved Sensors Manager with ship selection/ordering, and the time compression.

 

[RhodokMasterRaceOfficial]

Perkel did Beghins pay you personally to shill Complex this hard?

 

[Perkel]

Perkel did Beghins pay you personally to shill Complex this hard?

Worse. I am doing it for free.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

I don't get Cata love.

atmosphere.
"it's coming through the hull! IT'S COMING THROUGH THE HULL!". i too like cataclysm more than vanilla, but mostly because the latter felt insanely difficult.

for years i thought i was missing some precious hidden knowledge which made me fail at homeworld 2, and thought the game sucked because of it. now i read these differences and realize it actually sucked by itself. relieving.


anyway, what about this? https://www.moddb.com/mods/fx-galaxy/news/introducing-homeworld-the-rpg news?

 

[Zibniyat]

People bash H2's story as if H1's was in any way remarkable. H1's story is literally barebones: an exiled nation embarks on a journey across the galaxy, avoiding one of the "bad guys" (which are probably not), to reach their homeworld from which they were exiled. That's literally it. Muh story.

Missions, at least the first 10 ones I completed (the rest I watched on Jewtube), were interesting and it was nice piecing together what happened to some other factions among the once exiled people, but ultimately those were not "story" but worldbuilding elements, an important distinction.

I enjoyed H2 much more in every way, and there are some of us who do like their mysteries, prophesies and symbolism in games and other art/entertainment, which H2 put a much greater emphasis on. Someone uncharitably called the Sajuuk as "space Jesus", as if H1's story is anything other than "space Moses" leading the chosen ones to their promised land.

So yes, overall I liked H2 more, and yet I shall not say it's superior and better than H1, for this is one of those cases where different mentalities of different people simply focus and appreciate different things to a much greater degree than usual, consequence of which is that agreement is impossible.

 

[DraQ]

People bash H2' story as if H1's was in any way remarkable. H1's story is literally barebones: an exiled nation embarks on a journey across the galaxy, avoiding one of the "bad guys" (which are probably not), to reach their homeworld from which they were exiled. That's literally it. Muh story.

It's still a good story. And relatively simple, but cohesive story still beats one that cannot hold its shit together. For example why were Makaan's forces trying to damage and disable the gate to prevent you from reaching Balcora, if Makaan (already at Balcora) needed the hyperspace core you were carrying not just to reactivate Sajuuk, but even to not get stranded there?
It'd be inaccurate to say HW2's story was full of holes, it was just a soup of disjoint coherent fragments floating in a sea of derp.
Oblivion was a pinnacle of storytelling in comparison.
And speaking of hyperspace cores, HW2 was full of idiotic retcons that tried to reforge the backstory into Silmarillion in space, which was also NOT appreciated.

Missions, at least the first 10 ones I completed (the rest I watched on Jewtube), were interesting and it was nice piecing together what happened to some other factions among the once exiled people, but ultimately those were not "story" but worldbuilding elements, an important distinction.

No.
See above for details.

And then while overall ship design was p. cool and HW2 introduced some interesting mechanics, lack of simulated ballistics was pure decline and both ship design and aesthetics did feature some derp (Hiigaran destroyer trying HARD to be a seagoing ship to the detriment of both style and turret coverage - though original destroyers also weren't perfect in that regard; rising smoke damage effects in space were painful to watch).

I enjoyed H2 much more in every way

Have you considered the possibility of you being stupid or at least having shit taste?

and there are some of us who do like their mysteries, prophesies and symbolism in games and other art/entertainment, which H2 put a much greater emphasis on.

And that's fine by me - as long as it's not a pretext to shit on established backstory and lore.

Someone uncharitably called the Sajuuk as "space Jesus", as if H1's story is anything other than "space Moses" leading the chosen ones to their promised land.

Regardless of your religious affiliation you have to admit that OT makes for better stories than NT.

(And non-monotheistic mythologies fare even better - and by a large margin too - in that regard.)

 

[Zibniyat]

For example why were Makaan's forces trying to damage and disable the gate to prevent you from reaching Balcora, if Makaan (already at Balcora) needed the hyperspace core you were carrying not just to reactivate Sajuuk, but even to not get stranded there?

Makaan believed himself to be the "Chosen One", the one who will obtain the 3 cores. He knew Karan would ultimately arrive at Balcora, but by having his forces try and destroy the Gate he forced her (and her fleet) into acting a certain way, it being to rush and try to save the Gate no matter the cost; since he previously amassed a huge army, he knew that the limited time will not allow Karan to devise a proper strategy, consequently hopefully suffering great losses before arriving at Balcora, whereupon he would destroy her. So either Karan arrives at Balcora weak, or does not arrive at all due to her previous defeat, both scenarios being to his advantage. The former scenario, however, is "prophesized", and Makaan's belief in his destiny as the "Chosen One" made him unsurprised at Karen's previous victory.

Have you considered the possibility of you being stupid or at least having shit taste?

Have you considered the possibility of you having no imagination nor appreciation for things beyond mere superficiality? The anwser to this is of course negative. But you are like that. Which is worse than being stupid, it is like being dead.

 

[DraQ]

"Chosen One"

Yeah, muh chosen one, the staple of good storytelling.

Maybe I would have been a bit more forthcoming if they didn't shit all over the prequel with their crappy retcons.
Retcons are like chemotherapy - toxic and fuck you up, so you only consider them when your continuity already has a fucking cancer.

 

[Dayyālu]

That's literally it.

Yes. Less is more. Let the player fill in the blanks. Don't try to ape EPIC NARRATIVE you don't have the resources for. Don't write what you can't write.

I enjoyed H2 much more in every way, and there are some of us who do like their mysteries, prophesies and symbolism in games and other art/entertainment, which H2 put a much greater emphasis on. Someone uncharitably called the Sajuuk as "space Jesus", as if H1's story is anything other than "space Moses" leading the chosen ones to their promised land.

There's no Moses in HW1, because the attempt to get the Mothership as a Moses figure aren't that strong. It's a simple narrative of people/faction. HW2 has the sin of trying to make you care through clumsy, badly written and incoherent pseudo-hippie mysticism. With plot holes as big as a Battlecruiser (Makaan trapping himself is the most triumphant example, the Bentusi becoming Generic Precursors and the Generic Other Precursors).

There was theoretically a way to tell a good story in HW2: the Vaygr are in theory an interesting opponent from the little tidbits of lore other than "CAN YOU BELIEVE ITS SPACE MAGIC". But I'll be merciful and consider that HW2 was the remnant of a game they throw out because their original ideas and planning got destroyed. And it feels like a remnant, like the TENTACLE BOMBARDMENT SHIPS that need SAJIUUK THE BEAR because they had the models there and fuck how the fuck do we do the final mission FUCK

You can rewrite the whole story to make the Vaygr the space nomads they supposedly were, crashing in the post-Exile political situation following their mad quest to rule the galaxy. Throw in Republican Taidaani to help, whatever. Make it the war against the Philistines to HW1's Exodus.

Instead we get Precursors and MacGuffins.

(Didn't I already tell that Cata has better writing despite being the Blob in Space? It needs to be repeated. Also I love the moving backgrounds. Just love 'em.).

 

[Zibniyat]

What are "MacGuffins"? Any example of it in H2?

 

[jebsmoker]

What are "MacGuffins"? Any example of it in H2?

the ancient progenitor artifacts. a macguffin is, quite simply, an object or device in a movie or a book that serves merely as a trigger for the plot

 

[Zibniyat]

HW2 has the sin of trying to make you care through clumsy, badly written and incoherent pseudo-hippie mysticism.

I will let you know a thing: years ago I read a comment by someone, don't know if a journo or someone else, of how Karan's response upon seeing Kharak burning resonated with sorrow and was generally emotionally strong, inducing sympathy in the player.

And the reality?

"Kharak is burning." says Karan in a voice that is nearly devoid of any emotion or care. I could have almost laughed upon hearing her, because in my mind was the expectation that she'll have a weak, trembling voice at the sight of total destruction that has befallen her people. Instead, I got flat, monotonous statements of the obvious, which a machine could do as much. So much about H1's attempt at making me care.

 

[jebsmoker]

HW2 has the sin of trying to make you care through clumsy, badly written and incoherent pseudo-hippie mysticism.

I will let you know a thing: years ago I read a comment by someone, don't know if a journo or someone else, of how Karan's response upon seeing Kharak burning resonated with sorrow and was generally emotionally strong, inducing sympathy in the player.

And the reality?

"Kharak is burning." says Karan in a voice that is nearly devoid of any emotion or care. I could have almost laughed upon hearing her, because in my mind was the expectation that she'll have a weak, trembling voice at the sight of total destruction that has befallen her people. Instead, I got flat, monotonous statements of the obvious, which a machine could do as much. So much about H1's attempt at making me care.

it was one of the intentions of the designers at relic to give the impression that all of the people in the fleet talking are trying their best to maintain their cool in hellish and difficult situations. even still, you can hear her voice breaking slightly from the realization that kharak has been glassed

 

[Dayyālu]

What are "MacGuffins"? Any example of it in H2?

The entire plot is a succession of MacGuffins.

All the Cores, and by extension, the second Mothership and the Bentusi ship (that's now the laaaast shiiip of the Beeentusi because THEY'RE NOW Space Elves and the laaast of a dyiiing breeed - several retcons in a chain with the Cores being relevant while it was specified in HW1 that the Core was newly-built using the one in the Khar-Toba as a template. And by the way what about the Kadeshi? Should not they have a Magical Mistery Hyperspace Core too, being the descendants of the Magical Mistery Hiigaran Ancient Empire of Generic Evil?).

The Dreadnought. TWO MACGUFFINS SO WE CAN RECYCLE THE MODEL FOR A BOSS BATTLE

Sajuuk itself is a MacGuffin. Also dump the Mothership like a used sock, we're running with the Super Magical Mistery Ship nau

We know that HW2 was somewhat of a hack job due to the development collapsing on itself and entire pieces of gameplay being scuttled (superstructures, for example) but the writing was abysmal in both tone, execution an' stuff.

So much about H1's attempt at making me care.

Comrade, I'm sorry. No offense intended.

You may have bad taste.

 

[Zibniyat]

Comrade, I'm sorry. No offense intended.

You may have bad taste.

Perhaps, but it changes nothing about the particular thing I mentioned for which you quote me now.

 

[Zibniyat]

I think you people are being too harsh on H2, sure much of the criticism is valid, but the issue is one of emphasis since this is one of those cases where a game is heavily scrutinised and criticised from all perspectives all the while giving another game a free pass.

H1's Mothership for example, it can't move within missions, because its engines are "offline". However, the very first mission shows engines being functional, if very weak in themselves, and frankly it is absurd to have a giant spaceship unable to move. This is not explained nor justified in any way within the game, and at least one mission (the one with an asteroid heading towards the Mothership) relies purely on this purposefully badly designed "aspect" of the Mothership; some say it was intentional due to problems with scripting that would otherwise arise, but nonetheless it is NOT explained or not explained with sufficient justification. If we are talking about "MacGuffins" then this would be a good example, since like I said at least 1 mission requires the Mothership to be an immobile target.

 

[jebsmoker]

seeing this Kuun-Lan model done by one of the senior artists at Gearbox, Jonahan Fawcett, hurts

 

[Dayyālu]

I think you people are being too harsh on H2, sure much of the criticism is valid, but the issue is one of emphasis since this is one of those cases where a game is heavily scrutinised and criticised from all perspectives all the while giving another game a free pass.

Apples and oranges.

Maybe I was too snarky. Pardon. Bad Codex habit.

Let's try to be less confrontational. See, In My Humble Opinion HW1 is essentially a fluke. They kept the narrative very simple because at the time RTS narratives were simple and they didn't need to build too much of a "character-driven" plot or anything. Many things in HW1 are essentially interesting gameplay challenges, be it the Giant Asteroid or Dog or Ghost Ship or Kadeshi. The entire plot is a very simple Exodus parallel. This works very well in the context of the game, giving it a proper aura. You travel in weird and dangerous lands, hunted down by a cruel Empire, but you know jack shit about the Emperor or whatever. You know the gist of it, and there's the manual for plot and lore dump (as was common back then).

Less is more. You fill in the blanks if the worldbuilding gets you in. Some will love that, some won't.


Cata is the expansion, and it's an expansion. Smaller scale. Dirtier. It has better baseline writing, but the people behind it weren't the same HW1 team. I find it a good B-movie adventure, with fairly endearing "protagonists" (I always think of the Kiith Somtaaw as the equivalent of the crew from The Thing, if the crew of The Thing wanted to solve the problem with a howitzer). Also I love the moving backgrounds in Cataclysm, favourite part of the game. Can't stress enough how much I love 'em.


HW2's development, as far as I remember, was messy. Entire concepts and gameplay ideas were thrown out of the window. It's noticeable, the plot is .... improvised. Plot holes are in there, and the variety of enemies and set-ups is significantly inferior compared to HW1. There's no pirates, no Kadeshi, no Dog.... it's an endless battle against MP Faction 2 and 1-2 models of Precursor ships. Noticeably less stuff. Something clearly went wrong with the development. Furthermore, the forced mysticism feels like .... a badly learned lesson. People didn't think that HW1 was some kind of spiritual mumbo-jumbo or whatever, but suddenly everything is forced and "mystical", it just doesn't belong and directly contradicts the previous game for the sake of.... I'm not entirely sure. A clumsier but more detailed narrative, where you can see the lack of skill coming through.

Don't know if I expressed myself well.