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Company News How to make friends and influence previews

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robur said:
Beg your pardon? I didn't say that to prove an argument. I said it to this one:

But we can't say that the group of degenerates who ran away from school and are now writing for game sites are journalists can we?

In other words: duh, I didn't run away from school, I even finished it. If the "degenerate" sentence wasn't meant seriously, I wonder what is actually.

Oh. Well....power to you.

Did I say that? Anywhere?

Assumption of mine. Sorry. All too often people bust out the credentials as a proving point on the glorious internet. My mistake.

Good question. Maybe passion? Loving to write? Combing one passion (video games) with another one (writing)?

Ok...here's what I don't get then. You have the qualifications to do something better paying and those qualifications are not easy to obtain. You've said you don't favor a lot of the perks of the job too much. It just doesn't make much sense.

It's like if Joe American just graduated from law school and was looking for a hands-on job with a lot of structure, maybe some physical activity, and decent pay and then went into his own law practice or such. He wouldn't be enjoying the perks of the job since he wants hands-on or physical activity and a he doesn't have a sense of structure, as his own practice doesn't provide it. It all looks especially silly when he could apply for a job with the FBI and get all the perks he likes.

Not really. Being called a degenerate who is ran away from school is an insult. The least the poster could do is to show that he can call those names because he did not run away from school.

Hate to say it, but I'd have to agree that you are probably

People who were optimistic that change could be done often made an impact in history. Bitter people, well, do bitter things.

Well....VD is making his own game and so are a few others here. They're still "bitter" about the way the industry is going, but they are trying to make an impact.

Well, my learning is: Retreat from the spotlight. Because there's no way that meaningful conversations can be done.

Not exactly. Just be a little more careful with what you say and be ready to be called out on anything you say. Sometimes it might be better to just admit you screwed up than to try and defend everything.

And honesty, e.g. sharing personal info, never pays. Guess I've been too naive here.

No matter what you say you are on the internet, someone willl always call you on it or have an argument for it.

Well, working seven days a week and missing another BBQ/beach thingie with friends on 4th of July is a great perk. I agree. ;)

Beats working seven days a week of backbreaking labor just to pay the bills or thousands of other jobs with no perks such as travel and parties and no passions to fuel it.

Thank you. Then calling people "degenerates who ran away from school" is brillant argueing and facts backing?

Well....the Codex can be pretty harsh sometimes. I don't think he called you specifically a degenerate who ran away from school, and even still it's not a remark I'd use in a clear mind. Sure, calling an industry unprofessional is one thing, but the people degenerates? Little harsh. But then again calling someone directly a bitter basement dweller isn't a great way to respond if you want to take the moral high-ground. Just saying.
 

robur

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Amasius said:
robur said:
Then calling people "degenerates who ran away from school" is brillant argueing and facts backing?
Hey robur, I can understand why you feel insulted and while I don't have a high opinion of gaming journalists in general your old Planescape review you linked to in the other thread was pretty good. One can't lump all gaming journos together but do you (or deadairis for the matter) wonder why some people here also feel insulted by Allen Rauschs Fallout fans are "loathsome human beings, who I hope really get a horrible disease and die." ?
Hi Amasius, of course I can understand that. But neither Patrick or I are Allen Rausch. And neither you or Ed Murrow are the kind of people Allen Rausch tried to make fun of - which I don't approve of, the same way I don't approve the usage of "funny" insults as arguments. Cause that gets old after a while and does only play into the hands of the Allen Rauschs of this world.
 

Selenti

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Joined
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Messages
223
What the fuck did he expect? Call someone a shitface, they'll come back with something nastier, it's the nature of the comeback.

I'm sorry if he expected fans to lavish his cock with sweet kisses for insulting them, and then felt a need to lash out when they didn't.

I don't identify with the Fallout fanbase at all (some of the harping here is silly) but what he said still ticks me off, if only for the depressing things it says about this "industry".
 

Koby

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robur said:
Movies. Media get carried to Beverly Hills hotels, have interviews with the stars by the pools. Get carried to movie sets. Get carried to exclusive screenings, The Rock @ Alcatraz comes to mind.

Cars. Media get carried to car shows, car premieres. Lexus flew US journalists to Germany so they could put the pedal to the metal on the Autobahn.

Travel. Media gets invited to new resorts, cruise ships, yadda yadda.

Come on. Your question was rhetoric, wasn't it? Leave that basement every now and then.
That’s cute but I'm talking about PREviews sunshine, unfinished products.

In you experience, have journalists been "carried", all expenses paid, to see an unfinished product? To see what, exactly? Is it common?

It doesn't make a difference? Why? Share your reasoning?

p.s. with the exception of Microsoft and Sony in their consoles wars, I already know about that.
 
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deadairis said:
No, but his opinion of the job would be "significantly altered." So, why aren't your opinions "significantly altered?"

Ok....I made a bad comparison. Sorry.

But let me try to explain things and put them in perspective. The travelling correspondant who goes to all the big events and gets nice treatment from the developers isn't going to be as wowed after quite a few of them. Hence, he might not really think it's great, or he might take it for granted. hence, opinion altered significantly by being jaded.

As for our community, we are jaded because we want something that is really new and exciting for RPGs. Just like the correspondant, we get bored after seeing the same thing over and over. We want the industry to innovate and deliver role-playing in newer and deeper ways. It's just that the industry doesn't. Instead of making worlds truly reactive and "alive", you pretty much hack up monsters, get experience, and be people's errand boys. It's nothing new. Games like Oblivion do nothing new, exciting, or different to us. It's all the same shit.

See the difference?
 

robur

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Edward_R_Murrow said:
Ok...here's what I don't get then. You have the qualifications to do something better paying and those qualifications are not easy to obtain. You've said you don't favor a lot of the perks of the job too much. It just doesn't make much sense.

It's like if Joe American just graduated from law school and was looking for a hands-on job with a lot of structure, maybe some physical activity, and decent pay and then went into his own law practice or such. He wouldn't be enjoying the perks of the job since he wants hands-on or physical activity and a he doesn't have a sense of structure, as his own practice doesn't provide it. It all looks especially silly when he could apply for a job with the FBI and get all the perks he likes.
I might reveal too much of myself again here, but I did freelance for a mag during college and found that pretty cool - so I didn't want to say, ten years into engineering: wish I'd tried that magazine making thing. Also, with reunification happening in Germany at the time, engineering jobs weren't as plentiful as they are again today, both in the US and in Germany. You see, life is work in progress. Am I still going to do the thing I'm doing today in five years? I don't know. Maybe I even change sides, into game design and try to be a mole for all of us that favor story above flashy graphics. Maybe I'll run a bar. Many options. ;)

Well....VD is making his own game and so are a few others here. They're still "bitter" about the way the industry is going, but they are trying to make an impact.
And I salute him and others for that and have already made a mental note to propose a feature about those projects to give them more mainstream visibility.

Not exactly. Just be a little more careful with what you say and be ready to be called out on anything you say. Sometimes it might be better to just admit you screwed up than to try and defend everything.
If I screwed up, I'd be glad to admit that I did. Keep calling me out on that. But give me the grace of reading my posts in context - like you did this time re: the degenerate school runaway and my reasons to post what I actually did in school.

Beats working seven days a week of backbreaking labor just to pay the bills or thousands of other jobs with no perks such as travel and parties and no passions to fuel it.
I guess it's the old grass - green - fence thing. I have friends working as a cop, doctor, even garbage collector - and they are passionate about their jobs and the people they meet on the way. Not so different from myself. People without passion or vision really need to soul search to find theirs. I'm convinced that everybody has one. If they're not following it in their current job, they might do something on the side, as a hobby or part time thing. A friend of mine always wanted to run a cafe but was in heating installation and plumbing. But when he heard about an open position as a cafe manager, he applied anyways. He got the job. Paid not too well. Lots of stress. But now, three years later, he is ready to open and manage his own cafe with two partners he met during those three years.

But then again calling someone directly a bitter basement dweller isn't a great way to respond if you want to take the moral high-ground. Just saying.
Acknoweledged. And apologies if those statements actually hurt someone.
 

Selenti

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Frankly, it goes deeper than that for me. I wouldn't mind, basically, clone after clone of Baldur's Gate at this point if it was the same quality. We're not even getting that.

It's like if the film industry was constantly pumping out only straight-to-DVD 2 star films. And no matter what you think of film, the fact is good movies still come out. Games? Not so much.
 

robur

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Edward_R_Murrow said:
But let me try to explain things and put them in perspective. The travelling correspondant who goes to all the big events and gets nice treatment from the developers isn't going to be as wowed after quite a few of them. Hence, he might not really think it's great, or he might take it for granted. hence, opinion altered significantly by being jaded.
P.S.: Up to a point, that can be a good thing. Get someone to a game show, a press event etc. who hasn't been - and he might be much more prone to hype than someone who's been doing it since 1993. And I take pleasure out of the fact to point out things that aren't as smooth as they are during those events and get PR persons grumpy. And yes, I call things in my articles, too.
 

robur

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Selenti said:
Frankly, it goes deeper than that for me. I wouldn't mind, basically, clone after clone of Baldur's Gate at this point if it was the same quality. We're not even getting that.

It's like if the film industry was constantly pumping out only straight-to-DVD 2 star films. And no matter what you think of film, the fact is good movies still come out. Games? Not so much.
Selenti, I think the percentages might be similar, just seperated by a factor. Also, movie goers don't have to invest in a cinema, they pay $10 and watch the show. If you want to experience innovation in games, you gotta have all consoles and a PC. Like, Okami, Guitar Hero, Trauma Center, Final Fantasy 12 - those are on three different consoles already. Of course, if one only likes RPGs, it's even harder as they take longer to make and if spread out over different systems it can feel that there are even fewer of those out.
 

Selenti

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223
robur said:
Selenti said:
Frankly, it goes deeper than that for me. I wouldn't mind, basically, clone after clone of Baldur's Gate at this point if it was the same quality. We're not even getting that.

It's like if the film industry was constantly pumping out only straight-to-DVD 2 star films. And no matter what you think of film, the fact is good movies still come out. Games? Not so much.
Selenti, I think the percentages might be similar, just seperated by a factor. Also, movie goers don't have to invest in a cinema, they pay $10 and watch the show. If you want to experience innovation in games, you gotta have all consoles and a PC. Like, Okami, Guitar Hero, Trauma Center, Final Fantasy 12 - those are on three different consoles already. Of course, if one only likes RPGs, it's even harder as they take longer to make and if spread out over different systems it can feel that there are even fewer of those out.

I understand the narrower expectations. But really, it's not that hard. What a lot of us would settle for is little more than the gamer-equivelant of an average Shrek flick. It takes a minimum level of competency. It's not that people can't make these games anymore; it's that they choose to shit on the consumers instead, simply because they can.

Ironically, it's like Uwe Boll is developing our RPGs, now.

"I TOTALLY get it. Roleplaying. Hey, needs more car chases."
 

robur

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Koby said:
robur said:
Movies. Media get carried to Beverly Hills hotels, have interviews with the stars by the pools. Get carried to movie sets. Get carried to exclusive screenings, The Rock @ Alcatraz comes to mind.

Cars. Media get carried to car shows, car premieres. Lexus flew US journalists to Germany so they could put the pedal to the metal on the Autobahn.

Travel. Media gets invited to new resorts, cruise ships, yadda yadda.

Come on. Your question was rhetoric, wasn't it? Leave that basement every now and then.
That’s cute but I'm talking about PREviews sunshine, unfinished products.
Visiting a movie set is seeing quite an unfinished product in my eyes - you have no idea what the cutting and editing process will do to a scene you have just witnessed. Same goes for car shows and the finished product. Travel, of course they bring media in on opening day when all is nice, glitzy and the staff has been instructed to give a royal command performance. Some exceptions to the rule, like Disneyland where customer happiness and cleanliness is almost a religion.

In you experience, have journalists been "carried", all expenses paid, to see an unfinished product? To see what, exactly? Is it common?
Well, I can only speak for the gaming industry that I've covered. Sometimes companies pay the flight, sometimes the publisher does. Sometimes the companies pay dinner, sometimes we do so ourselves. Sometimes more time is spent aside from seeing the product than seeing the product. I remember one trip a colleague of mine went to. Disney Interactive had some new games a few years ago and invited media from all walks of life to a one week cruise on a Disney cruise ship (didn't even know those existed). So they saw games in conference rooms on the ship in the afternoons and enjoyed their trip the other time. I had my news editor there and we agreed upon his return that that was over the edge - not only was the relation gaming-spare time wildly out of proportion, he also couldn't help putting the book together for a week. Since those days five, six years ago, press trips have been downsized. Nowadays it's usually one day, with arrival on the day before and departure on the morning after. Though I'm happy if I can catch a flight straight away after the presentation. Missed the Blue Man group in Las Vegas due to that earlier this year, but you know, I'd rather get back home, enjoy the weekend with friends than hanging out in Vegas. Don't know if that can be called jaded or is just a function of getting older.

It doesn't make a difference? Why? Share your reasoning?
Ideally, we'd have game companies visit the editorial offices and show us their stuff in our play room. No time wasted, they can't spin doctor our systems. ;) But I can see where visiting 60 editorial offices around the world can take some toll on a development team - you don't want to have producers, programmers, designers etc. away for a month and beyond. On the other hand, if I'd be a PR person with a budget to spend, I would want to spend it. Because, let's be honest, the mags would review and write about my game whether I did an event or not.

Did that share some light in your questions?
 

robur

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Vault Dweller said:
robur said:
I'd love to see a thread where you guys all state your age and profession. That would be very enlightening, I guess.
Vice President, Sales & Marketing in a 500-employee company. Will be 37 in September. Was it enlightening enough for you?
I already knew about you. And you didn't call me a degenerate that ran away from school. And that's good cause we might actually meet to see your game at one point. :)
 

robur

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Selenti said:
I understand the narrower expectations. But really, it's not that hard. What a lot of us would settle for is little more than the gamer-equivelant of an average Shrek flick. It takes a minimum level of competency. It's not that people can't make these games anymore; it's that they choose to shit on the consumers instead, simply because they can.

Ironically, it's like Uwe Boll is developing our RPGs, now.

"I TOTALLY get it. Roleplaying. Hey, needs more car chases."
Hehe. I think that there are still tons of people out there in the developer community who'd start at creating a game catering to our old school tastes in a heartbeat. But they won't get funding. Or marketing. Or any support at all, cause they wouldn't cater to the mass market with their games. Not every developer has the liberties based on their track record, such as Blizzard.

That, I believe is the sad truth. Warren Spector (I believe) said it well two years ago at the Game Developer's Conference: it's WalMart and Target who determines what games are getting made and which don't. Very true. Also, how serious does gaming take itself? You can still get old movies, but old games? Try to install them. My graphics card gives me the worst problems with Fallout (GTS8800), screen goes black, stays lit only around the character, etc. etc. - it's hard to raise game savvy new gamers that demand those experiences if all there is is the next new thing that supports nVidia's 6 month cycle.
 

Amasius

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robur said:
And neither you or Ed Murrow are the kind of people Allen Rausch tried to make fun of
I guess that was meant as some strange kind of compliment. :lol:

But then I'd like to know what kind of people he tried to make fun of? (Rhetorical question)
 

Selenti

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robur said:
Selenti said:
I understand the narrower expectations. But really, it's not that hard. What a lot of us would settle for is little more than the gamer-equivelant of an average Shrek flick. It takes a minimum level of competency. It's not that people can't make these games anymore; it's that they choose to shit on the consumers instead, simply because they can.

Ironically, it's like Uwe Boll is developing our RPGs, now.

"I TOTALLY get it. Roleplaying. Hey, needs more car chases."
Hehe. I think that there are still tons of people out there in the developer community who'd start at creating a game catering to our old school tastes in a heartbeat. But they won't get funding. Or marketing. Or any support at all, cause they wouldn't cater to the mass market with their games. Not every developer has the liberties based on their track record, such as Blizzard.

That, I believe is the sad truth. Warren Spector (I believe) said it well two years ago at the Game Developer's Conference: it's WalMart and Target who determines what games are getting made and which don't. Very true. Also, how serious does gaming take itself? You can still get old movies, but old games? Try to install them. My graphics card gives me the worst problems with Fallout (GTS8800), screen goes black, stays lit only around the character, etc. etc. - it's hard to raise game savvy new gamers that demand those experiences if all there is is the next new thing that supports nVidia's 6 month cycle.

It's definitely always been an obstacle. PC Gaming has always been harder to get to work (though Windows 98+ took away some of that, anyone remember when you had to edit autoexec.bat to get games to even run?) and as a result, always tended to push the envelope more. I think something we're now seeing, actually, is a trend towards the simplicity and compatibility of console gaming, with a coinciding melding of genres and niches into mainstream products.

Titles that get the classification "RPG" these days would have been laughed out onto the street 5 years ago.

I think ultimately they're shooting themselves in the foot, though. There are film studios that spend a little money to make cheaper, more artsy films. This works well, tends to satisfy the niche market, and if they become a mainstream hit, then the profit to production cost ratio is skyhigh. Basically, the suits in the gaming industry are borderline retarded (or, in some cases, dropouts).

If I had to say what my biggest complaint with the industry is, I'd say (I know, groan) the whole reporting side. With movies, people are generally honest, if a movie blows, you'll see that in reviews. Not so much with gaming. It's why I don't game as much as I used to, I basically have to play a game myself to see if it's any good (and for all my bitching, there are still some enjoyable if not mindblowing games out there). The trouble is finding them, through the noise of "oh yeah, ALL THESE GAMES are totally awesome!"

One last parting thought, regarding backwards compatibility... I wonder if there's any money in designing a line of PCs that are really, really old in spec (like, 486/DX), but brand new, designed to play older games naturally. The real problem, as I see it, is the legal issues. With, say, consoles, at least half the games out there belong to one company, so they can go "hey, you can play all these old games now that we added some backwards compatibility to this console", whereas with PCs you really can't, there's too many different companies unwilling to give up their copyrights. Would be neat to see some industry-wide cooperation on this, but I never expect it to happen.

It occurs to me that once DosBox hits a few more release milestones, you could probably reasonably run any old DOS game on it, so I guess the only real obstacle to this is the copyright issues as above. I can't help but think that a box in a store that had most every DOS game ever released for 60$ with an emulator like DosBox, legally sold, might sell like hotcakes. Maybe I'm just naive, though.
 

Koby

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...Though I'm happy if I can catch a flight straight away after the presentation. Missed the Blue Man group in Las Vegas due to that earlier this year, but you know, I'd rather get back home, enjoy the weekend with friends than hanging out in Vegas. Don't know if that can be called jaded or is just a function of getting older.
I think it's safe to assume that if someone is in the opinion that traveling for work, alone, on a constant basis, sometimes half-way across the world, spending hours for a connection, is fun or like some kind of a holiday or a treat, he probably doesn't have the first idea on how that feels like.
Don’t worries about these complaints too much.

...On the other hand, if I'd be a PR person with a budget to spend, I would want to spend it. Because, let's be honest, the mags would review and write about my game whether I did an event or not.

Did that share some light in your questions?
Almost, I'm more interested in the grayer areas.

For example, in a hypothetical scenario where you as an editor of a game mag already decided not to sent a reporter to a game preview event and not only that, you already decided not to cover that game in the this month issue, for whatever reason, and a PR "with a budget to spend" sends an all expenses paid invitation, is it likely or possible that you will, as the editor, reconsider?

For a somewhat less gray example, if you found out that one of the reporters in a preview event you are attending is under some kind obligation in his writing, like in the link posted earlier, and furthermore, you found out that that reporter would have not attended this event if the PR person would have not paid for his ticket, duo to the fact that he comes from a relatively small publisher that doesn't have a budget to send someone to every tripleA preview, what would you have done/thought?

And btw, to the extend of MY knowledge, PR departments paying for travel expenses for a preview is almost the sole domain of the gaming industry. (quick edit) Especially for products that are a year away from launch.
 

elander_

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robur said:
I already knew about you. And you didn't call me a degenerate that ran away from school. And that's good cause we might actually meet to see your game at one point. :)

I didn't call you a degenerate robur i was speaking in general so no need for you to bite the hook. About my credentials, in the internet everyone has a Master Thesis at everything with A+++.
 

robur

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Koby said:
For example, in a hypothetical scenario where you as an editor of a game mag already decided not to sent a reporter to a game preview event and not only that, you already decided not to cover that game in the this month issue, for whatever reason, and a PR "with a budget to spend" sends an all expenses paid invitation, is it likely or possible that you will, as the editor, reconsider?
If I didn't have the manpower, we wouldn't send anybody. If I did have the manpower, I'd send someone and say to the publisher: hey listen, we're not going to do anything about this event. Our man is just there to get a good look at it for future reference and ultimately the review. If you don't like that, we're not coming - don't expect us to do anything. On the other hand, I had to argue a long time to go on a trip to the Oddworld guys eleven years ago when they did their very first showing of Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee to me and two other European journalists. Because I knew that that game would be something special: a 2D side scroller with an in-game dialogue system, the main hero without any weapons - and that of the dawn of the 3D age.

For a somewhat less gray example, if you found out that one of the reporters in a preview event you are attending is under some kind obligation in his writing, like in the link posted earlier, and furthermore, you found out that that reporter would have not attended this event if the PR person would have not paid for his ticket, duo to the fact that he comes from a relatively small publisher that doesn't have a budget to send someone to every tripleA preview, what would you have done/thought?
I would have thought: I hope that he stays clear to his mission and doesn't get any weird ideas or influences or obligations. Because even smaller sites should make it clear that despite the fact that their man is flown somewhere, that doesn't have to say anything about the coverage yet.

And btw, to the extend of MY knowledge, PR departments paying for travel expenses for a preview is almost the sole domain of the gaming industry. (quick edit) Especially for products that are a year away from launch.
We all found the year away thing a bit wild, hard to give estimates about a game that early. It's more a first look than a preview really. I would extend the whole grey area to other fields, though. Like the example I mentioned when Lexus hauled US journos to Germany to let them drive their cars on the Autobahn. A $40.000 (estimate) car is something else than a $50 game.
 

Tinkies

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Vault Dweller said:
and a private party at a nightclub
I wonder if Todd went to the party?
epictodddancekv2.png
 

ricolikesrice

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....

hmm robur and deadairis, i just been bored and wrote a review of my own about oblivion the way i see it - its quite different from the usual codex bashing since it doesnt put oblivion vs planescape or some other "nerd game" (as some call them) but a gaming gigant that beats even oblivion in terms of hype.

i wonder what you guys think of that review, since i tried really hard to not go to my usual bethesda hate but remain somewhat "objetive" while still showing why i dont get the hype about oblivion. please show me what parts of my review you disagree with because i seriously have trouble understanding how these things i wrote are not the "truth" and not just "opinions of a disgruntled cRPG nerd".

the review is based on the gamespy review of oblivion btw, feel free to read that again at http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/the-elder-scrolls-iv-oblivion/698423p1.html
but seriously, thats NOT journalism, thats a shitload of plain lies right there ("the player can grow and change and truly have an impact on the world" for instance)

anyway, here goes:

Bethesda knows what it wants. Ever since 1996, the company has seems to have pursued a singular vision of what it feels an RPG should be:
an enormous, immersive world with open-ended gameplay and a content-rich alternate universe that could pull in a player for months at a time.
Its first significant attempt at achieving this was 1996's Daggerfall (a.k.a. The Elder Scrolls: Chapter II), a brilliant game that was weighed
down with bugs and technical issues that mildly annoyed some, infuriated others, and kept many people from running it at all.
The next attempt, 2002's Morrowind: It was streamlined and easier to get into, but the game lived by a very unique and immersive world that "screamed" exploring
unknown lands - the graphics were much improved, and the gameplay was more accessible to all kinds of players not just the typical RPG fan.
It was, however, also weighed down with bugs and technical issues that mildly annoyed some, infuriated others, and kept many people from running it at all.
Some changes in the gameplay also werent welcomed with open arms from the fans of the previous game Daggerfall.

Fast forward to 2006 and Bethesda's latest release in The Elder Scrolls series, Oblivion. If this doesn't prove that history repeats itself, I don't know
what does. Oblivion is even more streamlined and easier to get into but at the cost of depth compared to Morrowind.

Oblivion takes place in Tamriel, a fantasy universe occupied by a mixture of the standard humans, Elves and Orcs, along with a few non-standard ones
like half-lion people and even a race of lizard men. Though it's not a direct sequel, Oblivion, like the earlier games, starts with the player in prison
for some unspecified crime. You won't spend long there, however, because you're quickly rescued by none other than the Emperor of Tamriel
(voiced by Patrick Stewart), who's on the run from mysterious assassins. It seems the Emperor's sons have been murdered and once he's dead,
there's nothing stopping the denizens of Oblivion (Tamriel's version of Hell) from opening dimensional gates and wiping out all life on the planet.
Naturally, after the Emperor's death, it's up to the player to take his amulet and find some way of stopping the Oblivion invasion.

Or perhaps not. One of the hallmarks of the Elder Scrolls series has always been the absolute freedom to do whatever the player wishes.
That freedom remains in Oblivion. If the player wants to walk away from the main quest and never return, they're perfectly free to do so.
Indeed, one of the core elements of the game is walking around the world of tamriel and doing lots of sidequests or clearing the many dungeons the world
provides. The price of this freedom is however that the world doesnt really react to your actions: the mentioned invasion never happens if you dont trigger the
quests associated with it - you can do anything you want - but it matters little. Not only in that aspect Oblivion reminds me a lot of MMORPGs: huge world, plenty
of dungeons and quests to do, but the feeling that you are really part of a living world doesnt come up unless you use your imagination a lot.
Best example are the factions you can join in the game: there s 4 different guilds with their own quest chains and the end of each you can even become the
leader of said guild. Or leader of all 4 guilds: its very well possible for a character that never used magic to become archmage of the mage s guild.
The most hilarious quest i ever encountered in a computer game is only possible because of that: you can become archmage of the mages guild and at the same time
another quest is to steal an item from the archmage of said mage s guild...... if you accept that quest after having become archmage yourself you can figure out
the rest out yourself ;) I havent laughed that much because of something in a computer game in a long time, but then again its a pretty sad example of how
nothing you do really matters in tamriel.

Lets look at another part of the freedom Oblivion gives you: character development, alchemy, and spell-making systems. Character development is relatively
unchanged from previous Elder Scrolls titles. Unlike other RPG systems, player characteristics aren't leveled up via an arbitrary experience point system.
Instead, player abilities improve through practice. The more the player swings a sword in combat, the better his or her sword fighting skills become,
and casting spells increases the power and complexity of spells they can cast. While there are plenty of pre-made spells, magic items, and potions in
the game, the powerful and easy-to-use crafting system means that players can create custom made items and spells. This means that character development
is largely based on how the player actually plays the game, not on arbitrary decisions made without enough information when the player levels.
It isn't always easy to do this -- you're forced to pick a specialty at the beginning of the game -- but it is possible to turn a pure warrior into
a mage just by practicing. Whether you like or dislike that "learning-by-doing" system is up to your individual taste but i felt the main problem with
the character development is that its incredibly dull and lacking variety. Your gameplay at Level 1 will not differ much from your gameplay at Level 20 except
that your equipment looks more shiny.
Lets take a look on World of Warcraft for example: Granted i dont have the freedom of chosing the skills i want but i am forced to chose a class instead....
however if i decide to play a warrior in WoW every few level ups i get new abilites. And those new abilities arent
just "Hit the enemy for X more damage" but abilities like "Charge", "Intercept", "Battleshout", "Overpower" etc.... lots of special attacks i can use to make
combat more interesting. Oblivion seriously pales in comparision. As a melee fighter combat will always be about hitting the enemy, blocking their attacks and
repeat till either the enemies or your hitpoints are reduced to zero. For mages its not much better, Oblivion has your standard fare of fantasy spells like fireballs,
lighting and various buffs but lacking any "special" spells. Because of the lack of unique abilities and spells to look forward to i personally really felt
very little motivation to level up (combined with the level-scaling, more on that later)


In comparision to Morrowind Oblivion also lost freedom in terms of equipment, spell-making etc. You can no longer select individual pauldrons, cant
wear clothing under your armor nor wear a skirt for example. Sure, its not that important but i really dont understand why Bethesda took that away.
Now its just about Chest, Helm, Legs, Boots and Gloves - quite a loss in deciding your characters looks.


Owners of the PC version of Oblivion can download a free copy of the Elder Scrolls Construction Kit, released shortly after the game's official launch.
This is a powerful editor that gamers can use to alter aspects of the game, add content to the world, or even create their own new adventures.
Skilled modders have already made hundreds if not thousands of mods for Oblivion and if you dont enjoy the game the way it is - you may be get some fun
out of what the community has and will produce with the toolset.


Lets talk graphics. There's an extraordinary rush that comes from walking out of the prison sewers at the beginning of the game, taking in the beautiful
vista, and realizing that everything the player can see is "real."
The graphics engine of Oblivion is simply enormous and the first few hours in Tamriel are definitly eyecandy at its finest.
But after those first hours in Tamriel unfortunately that great experience fades very fast since you cant help but notice how the world is very "generic".
Sure, all those trees, grass, water and buildings look wonderfull.... but when you have seen a hundred of them that effect goes away pretty quick.
Tamriel lacks the love of detail morrowind and many other games have, it feels like a mere collections of cities, forests, ruins and dungeons instead of
a fantasy world that would exist even without the player. There is little in terms of variation in landscape and while the first few dungeons you enter look
absolutely stunning - it takes only a few more and you seen them basically all. Compare that with WoW s huge world where every zone has its own distinct looks
and every dungeon is carefully designed even on the pure optical side.
I can only hope skilled modders will use the engine to the best and create diverse, atmospheric worlds to explore - else Oblivion s wonderful graphics engine
sadly pretty much goes to waste by what is provided in terms of art direction in the original game.
The world is huge however, so if you dont mind things getting repeative as long as there is quests to do and monsters to slay you can spend months in oblivion
without ever touching the main quest. (or after doing so)


And there is LOTs of quests to do and one has to give Bethesda credit that unlike the typical MMORPG most of them arent just "kill 100 orcs and come back"
but rather interesting, especially the Dark Brotherhood quest line. The problem with the quests however, no matter how fun they sound: they feel "unnatural"
- a quest is doing things the NPCs or your questlog tell you. Unlike some other cRPGs you dont have choices to make and means to solve quests in different ways.
If someone wants you to steal an item - you have to go steal it. You cant talk to the owner and maybe buy it instead. You cant hire a thief to steal it for you (and
in exchange maybe do him another favour your character is better suited for).
So while they "read" alot better than your typical MMORPG/Diablo-Clone quest, they end up in actually beeing no different since a quest is merely doing a job
the way your are told to do it, instead of doing a job a way you want to do it.
One of the first quests i got was about getting information about another NPC where my quest-giver told me to "not tell the other guy". I was never given
the ability to "tell the other" guy. You may have freedom to do 300 quests when and where you want to - but you never have the freedom to do a quest HOW you want to.
(or at least very very rarely - i admit i havent played every quest )
Thief-characters will enjoy that unlike other games basically all houses in Oblivion can be entered and thus you will have lots of stuff to steal - if you get
caught however you have to pay a fine or go into jail. Its fun for a while but also gets boring pretty fast as the quantity (lots of houses to break into)
doesnt make up for the lack of quality (no real consequences to your actions, nor objects really worth stealing)


One of the main problems of Oblivion is the new feature of "Level-Scaling". It means that all enemies and all loot will be balanced against your current level.
The noble goal of that feature is that Oblivion always remains challenging and the player doesnt get bored by one-hitting every enemy in sight at later levels
- or gets frusttraded by BEEING one-hit by every enemy in sight should he go to the wrong place at the wrong time...
The problem is that level-scaling has lots of very bad side-effects:
1. combined with the dull character development it takes all the joy out of leveling all-together. Whats the point of doing x-more damage when every level up
also means your enemies getting x-more hitpoints ?
2. items are scaled to your level as well. as a low level you ll never come across daedric armor (now THAT would be something worth stealing for a thief character)
and as a high level character daedric armor will be so common even bandits use it - a real immersion breaker right there.
3. the game is "beatable" at level 1. yes thats right - you can become arena grandchampion, leader of all guilds etc all at level 1 in your trusty leather armor.
4. monsters are scaled to your level. at high level every random dungeon is full of high level enemies. some monster types simply stop appearing alltogether.

Well at least for those who dont like managing stats Oblivion can be played like your average shooter without problems.

If you read that far you are probably wondering "thats alot of negativity, so oblivion is not worth getting ?". I d say that depends alot on what you
expect from the game.

The best comparision with oblivion is imho World of Warcraft , despite that beeing a MMORPG. Sure, WoW features playing online with thousands of players
and unlike Oblivion thus offers PvP, raid encounters etc..... but when it comes to general gameplay for a single player they are pretty similar:

you are thrown in a huge world and level your character by killing, exploring and doing quests. now that sounds like mosts cRPG but well just like MMORPGs
oblivion puts the focus on freedom instead of following a strict storyline with just a few sidequests. (oblivions mainquest is very well comparable with
some questchains in mmorpgs).

and unless you really dont want one or all of these 3 things:

1) paying 10 bucks per month
2) beeing required to be online to play
3) "sharing" a world with 1000s of others (which may include plenty l337 kidz)

i d say WoW wins the comparision in almost every regard. (unless some really good custom content is beeing made or you wanna use the construction set yourself)

But if the above 3 things are keeping you from playing MMORPG yet you want to dive into an open, non-linear world to do quests and combat in .. you probably should
give oblivion a try - especially seeing there is more than enough mods already out now that change some of the flaws of the game for the better.

My biggest beef with oblivion is that as a sequel to morrowind it really disappointet me. Morrowind had many flaws i thought, but they all were made up by
the unique world the game played in - you really felt exploring that time. And since exploring is what TES-games are about, i can only wonder why Bethesda chose
to create a world as cliche, as generic and repeative as Tamriel. When morrowind is like exploring a foreign country 5000 km away with its own culture, architecture etc...
Oblivion is like watching Lord of the Rings for the 30st time, good looking landscapes dont look so great anymore if you seen them over and over.

isnt that a lot more "honest" than the original gamespy review which flatout lies at some points ? and all that without "Todd iz the gay" jokes or citing 10y old games ?

my point is not going into a battle of old cRPGs vs new cRPGs, my point is that oblivion is a single player spin off of your typical MMORPG these days, yet still hailed as the cRPG revolution by people who are obviously lying or never played a MMORPG.

i think single player cRPGs should build on things that MMORPGs cant offer: a world that changes with your actions, the overused term: choices and consequences. good story, good dialogue. oblivion has nothing of that and that hundred thousands enjoy it simply shows that hundred thousands are interested in MMORPG gameplay without the MMO part and monthly costs. an offline spinoff of WoW would trash oblivion even without the blizzard hype.

but all that doesnt mean that there s not maybe also hundred thousands desperatly looking for "real" single player cRPGs beeing made..... what tells you its a niche market ?
if i m not totally wrong NWN2 sold quite well and while the opinions on NWN2 vary greatly as well, especially here on the codex, it certainly goes alot more into the fallout/PS:T/arcanum direction then oblivion.

i find it a shame that game development is soo dependant on hype these days.

Bethesda decides to make Fallout 3 FP and RT and the media goes "fuck the fallout fans, TB/ISO is soooo dated".
yet i m 100% sure if blizzard were to announce a TB/ISO game the same people would go "yay, finally a developer remembering the good old days, enough with the boring RTS/shooter clones".
names sell games... sad, really.

(btw i could care less about fallout 3 beeing TB/iso, since fallout 1&2 didnt involve managing a squad but just a single person - TB/Iso isnt really needed in that case imho... my main beef with fallout 3 is the "rape" of the setting:
Subways full of mutants that look like orcs, mushroom clouds everywhere, etc etc, sounds like Serious Sam, Duke Nukem or Radioactive Man, but not Fallout )

oh yeah, tldr
 

DarkUnderlord

Professional Throne Sitter
Staff Member
Joined
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Messages
28,563
robur said:
Nothing new here. Happens in all entertainment media, not only in games. Wake up, people.
Does the fact that everyone else does it, make it better?

As far as I see it, there are three issues here:

1. Very few of the previews / reviews every actually mention the event or who paid for it. It's similar to a newspaper article, when a reporter is writing about a business. If they own shares in that company or have some sort of relationship with them, it's good practice (and in fact, a requirement in many cases) to mention that relationship. EG: "I own shares in XYZ" or "I am an employee of XYZ". It's about being open and accountable and mentioning anything which might have even some impact on the way that reporter presents their information. It's about informing the reader in an unbiased way, which really, is what your job is. More specifically, if they're shown a slideshow, it' be nice to hear that "all we saw was a slideshow". The way some journalists write, you'd think they had real hands-on game-time. You should be disclosing this information in your articles, just like real journalists do.

2. Now sure, some events suck. You fly economy class, you stay at a cheap hotel, you're shown a movie of game-play, you ask a bunch of questions the developers don't answer, you get some food and you go home tired. Fine. But what about those others where you're taken out for the day and go "shooting AK47's", go to DisneyLand, get given some free rides and other "fun" stuff? Sure, you can dismiss it all as "well, it's not that interesting" but then if it didn't work, why would developers waste money on doing those things? Because it does make a difference. Maybe not to you but maybe the guy writing for that other mag really liked the AK47 stuff.

3. What else aren't we being told? I've still got no reason to disbelieve this article, despite deadairis wanting to dismiss him as a nobody and especially given we've heard simiar stories about game companies trying to persuade opinion for other games with similar tactics (Driv3r forum plants and so on). Also, "every other industry" does this, so why not gaming as well?

robur said:
Then calling people "degenerates who ran away from school" is brillant argueing and facts backing?
Wait, why are you offended instead of dismissing it as "hyperbole" like we were supposedly meant to do with the "catch a disease and die" comment which was directed at us?
 

robur

Scholar
Joined
Jun 19, 2007
Messages
108
DarkUnderlord said:
Does the fact make it worse automatically?

1. Very few of the previews / reviews every actually mention the event or who paid for it. It's similar to a newspaper article, when a reporter is writing about a business. If they own shares in that company or have some sort of relationship with them, it's good practice (and in fact, a requirement in many cases) to mention that relationship. EG: "I own shares in XYZ" or "I am an employee of XYZ". It's about being open and accountable and mentioning anything which might have even some impact on the way that reporter presents their information. It's about informing the reader in an unbiased way, which really, is what your job is. More specifically, if they're shown a slideshow, it' be nice to hear that "all we saw was a slideshow". The way some journalists write, you'd think they had real hands-on game-time. You should be disclosing this information in your articles, just like real journalists do.
The magazines I work for have a policy of disclosing whether it's been hands-on or not. If it hasn't been hands-on, some don't even give the "first impression" rating of 1-5 (Germans like everything to be quantified more than any other nation, I believe). I just finished a pre-E3 special and the editor called for first impression ratings. Well, I noted one game was really awful, despite it's big name, and it received a 2/5 first impression. Another one got a 3/5. No 5/5 were given this time.

We usually mention events and have pictures of it in the mag. Especially with interviews, I like to take pictures to show that we actually spoke to the person that gives us the answers. I believe that disclosing who paid the flight or the hotel or the food doesn't really matter. If I owned stocks in a game company, I would disclose that. But I don't. Should have bought Nintendo last year, though. I have yet to sign a "don't write bad things about this game NDA". I would not do it either, sorry. Apparently, that doesn't blacklist me or something, been doing this gig since 1993.

2. Now sure, some events suck. You fly economy class, you stay at a cheap hotel, you're shown a movie of game-play, you ask a bunch of questions the developers don't answer, you get some food and you go home tired. Fine. But what about those others where you're taken out for the day and go "shooting AK47's", go to DisneyLand, get given some free rides and other "fun" stuff? Sure, you can dismiss it all as "well, it's not that interesting" but then if it didn't work, why would developers waste money on doing those things? Because it does make a difference. Maybe not to you but maybe the guy writing for that other mag really liked the AK47 stuff.
Oh yeah, completely agreed. But I'm responsible for myself, right? Not for others. If you're a dentist, you wash your hands and wear gloves. If you're a blacksmith, you heat up the fire hot enough. If you're a journalist, you stay clear of distractions. Call that naive, but that has been my mantra since 1993. And before that.

3. What else aren't we being told? I've still got no reason to disbelieve this article, despite deadairis wanting to dismiss him as a nobody and especially given we've heard simiar stories about game companies trying to persuade opinion for other games with similar tactics (Driv3r forum plants and so on). Also, "every other industry" does this, so why not gaming as well?
Interesting article. I wouldn't mind just writing one, two previews before a game comes out. That's how it used to be in Japan. First preview/revealing of the game in summer, release in fall. However, at that point, the game was pretty much complete and no room for any changes. If, as mentioned in the article, games are on display without anyone explaining them, resulting in "bad" press and trouble, duh - next time have someone standing next to the game explaining it or don't show it at all.

robur said:
Then calling people "degenerates who ran away from school" is brillant argueing and facts backing?
Wait, why are you offended instead of dismissing it as "hyperbole" like we were supposedly meant to do with the "catch a disease and die" comment which was directed at us?
Easy. Because I didn't say those things, but I'm a journalist. And I refuse kin liability. Same as if I'd say "all posters on the codex use vulgar language instead of reasoning intelligently" - that would offend 99 percent of the readers here as well. And at the end of the day they are neither facts nor brillant arguing, something I have to do in each and every post as required by you guys, while at the same time that's not mandatory for you. Double standard, y'know? But I have hope that some things I'm writing aren't in vain, so I oblige. Most of the time. I'm only human.
 

DarkUnderlord

Professional Throne Sitter
Staff Member
Joined
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Messages
28,563
robur said:
DarkUnderlord said:
Does the fact make it worse automatically?
Yes. Using someone elses bad behaviour as an excuse for your own isn't "a good thing". Downward spiral of humanity and all that. It's an admittance that you have no good reason to do it yourself. "Everyone else is corrupt / doing it, so why shouldn't I too?". Its avoiding the issue rather than making that moral / ethical decision for yourself.

robur said:
The magazines I work for have a policy of disclosing whether it's been hands-on or not.
I agree with what you've said. What magazine do you work for by the way (not sure if you've already mentioned it)?

robur said:
Oh yeah, completely agreed. But I'm responsible for myself, right? Not for others.
Absolutely. But disclosure is about being open about any possible influences. The fact you weren't influenced doesn't negate the fact that they potentially tried to influence you. By disclosing those things, it lets the reader make a judgement call. "Do I trust this guy or has his overly high (or negative) opinion been persuaded by the awesome (or sub-par) event?". By saying "they took us out and we shot AK47's in an all expenses paid trip to Florida", you're being honest and making me more likely to trust that you are giving a truthful opinion about the game you've seen / watched someone else play / got to see photoshopped screenshots of.

As an example, the very fact that most of the previewers didn't disclose this event has lead directly to this thread. If more of them had said "Last week I got flown out to..." and so on, this wouldn't have been an issue. Instead, it goes back to a matter of trust. "So that's how it works, is it? Well what else are you hiding?". Sure, to the industry this is normal but very few people talk about it. Being what we are, we're interested in how the industry works. And really, we'd just like to know why it is that most of the mainstream press see "AWSUM" and salivate where we see "WTF?" and cringe.

robur said:
DarkUnderlord said:
robur said:
Then calling people "degenerates who ran away from school" is brillant argueing and facts backing?
Wait, why are you offended instead of dismissing it as "hyperbole" like we were supposedly meant to do with the "catch a disease and die" comment which was directed at us?
Easy. Because I didn't say those things, but I'm a journalist. And I refuse kin liability. Same as if I'd say "all posters on the codex use vulgar language instead of reasoning intelligently" - that would offend 99 percent of the readers here as well.
I don't know if that'd offend us or whether we'd wear it as a badge of pride. The vulgar language bit that is.

I'll side-step in a rant here but the reason we started the Codex was because for the few RPGs we get, no-one had our voice. We are an "elitest" bunch of nerds and most of the gaming press, as deadairis has so lovingly pointed out, cares more about what the average 12 year old thinks. "It has awesome graphics", so it's immediately an A+ title. "OMG cool explosions" so no-one cares about the story. That attitude is reflected in our perception of Oblivion. The mainstream media saw "AWSUM graffiks", "Radiant AI" and all the other shiney, where-as we saw a bunch of handholding (no really, how many pop-ups telling you what to do does a quest need?), poor writing, mundane plot, crappy repetitive AI and a bunch of other stuff which lacked quality, particularly in the areas we care about (writing, story etc... or more broadly "immersion"). And really, no horse-back combat? WTF is up with that? Is that really so hard to do when an independent 2-man developer can implement it so perfectly?

Take a look at the Fallout 3 previews (which are seemingly, only written based on a movie they saw) and everyone's going "OMG awsum graphics. Look at that, it jumped out and I felt immersed!". We look at things a little deeper / more pedanticly than that. "Everything is voiced?" sure, sounds awesome. Until you realise it's the same 5 voices saying the same 5 things over and over again. We don't care about superficial voice-overs, we want real quality. More to the point, "Who wouldn't want Liam Neeson as your father?" I mean, what the hell kind of design decision is that? Why should I crap my pants in awe just because, you know, LIAM NEESON! It's Patrick Stewart!! all over again. Been there, done that.

I suppose what I'm really asking now is: How come we get that and the mainstream don't?

robur said:
And at the end of the day they are neither facts nor brillant arguing, something I have to do in each and every post as required by you guys, while at the same time that's not mandatory for you. Double standard, y'know?
No, we expect everyone to back up what they say. Even our own users. It becomes an issue when you appear to be avoiding what's being said though. Shit gets misunderstood, fine. So explain it better or ask the other guy to explain it better. But when you twist it into another issue and fail to respond to the actual point that was being made, even when that point is asked of you again and again, and everyone else seems to quite clearly understand what's being asked while you feign ignorance and outright ignore the question, you'll get labelled sooner or later.

The rules here are simple. Make a statement, back it up. We're not just going to take your word for it because, you know, you think you're someone important (that's not necessarily directed at you).

robur said:
But I have hope that some things I'm writing aren't in vain, so I oblige. Most of the time. I'm only human.
As are we.
 

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