Preview IGN previews Dragon Age

[Volourn]

VD: 1. No. Troika did not develop Fallout. Period. Stick to praising them for the great Arcanum.

2. i didn't forget anything. I ASSumed that it would be obvious to the geniuses I'm surrounded with here. Perhaps, i ASSumed wrong.

 

[Vault Dweller]

if a larger part of the team worked on it, yeah... technicality. last i heard there were only a few...

Quality vs Quantity. By the same token MCA deserves a major chunk of the PST credit and is the only reason why I'm interested in KOTOR II

no matter how you slice it, everything is going to be referred back to the original concepts of fantasy, namely elves and dwarves and such. so what makes something original? different names for the same thing?

I agree that it's almost impossible to make something truly original, but there are plenty of things that haven't been done to death, like any oriental setting, for example. Even having an all human setting with different personalities would have been less boring then playing yet another games with dwarves and elves, who are basically the same humans but with different stats and builds.

 

[Volourn]

Interesting...

1. Bio is already doing the Oriental stuff so they'd be accused of stealing their own thing.

2. They use avriant humans and they'd be accused of coipying MW...

See, no win situation.

 

[Vault Dweller]

First, I said "for example". There are other settings. Second, lesser evil.

 

[Volourn]

There are no lesser or greater evils. Only the vil that humankind creates in their minds.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Dark: Let me see now. You give credit to Troika for Fallout (which is utterly wrong and a LIE)

I didn't mean to credit Troika for creating Fallout. Troika Games was founded in April 1998 by the creators of Fallout. You disagree?

Tim Cain: Best known as the producer, lead programmer and designer of Fallout (the 1997 RPG of the Year)

Leonard Boyarsky: At the time Stonekeep ended, Leonard was given the opportunity to become lead artist/art director on the nebulous project that was to become Fallout. In addition to guiding the art on the project, he joined with Jason Anderson and Cain Tim to oversee the complete direction and feel of the game, and helped come up with the original design.

Jason Anderson: Working closely with Tim Cain, he helped design the isometric engine, game world and interface used in Fallout.

Oh lookee, seemingly all responsible for key aspects of Fallout's design. These guys aren't Bob the Janitor who swept the floors while someone else did the hard work on Fallout. These guys are the reason Fallout is what Fallout is. They designed the bitch from the ground up.

yet you claim BIo has been around much longer presumably as a game developer; if not RPG dveloper)?

Volourn, BioWare HAVE been around longer.

All games by Bioware:
* Baldur's Gate
* Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
* Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn (Collector's E...
* Baldur's Gate II: The Collection
* Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal
* Baldur's Gate: Tales of the Sword Coast
* Baldur's Gate: The Original Saga
* MDK 2
* MDK 2: Armageddon
* Neverwinter Nights
* Neverwinter Nights Collector's Edition
* Neverwinter Nights Gold
* Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark
* Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide
* Shattered Steel
* Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic

Now take a look at the Games by Troika:
* Arcanum: Of Steamworks & Magick Obscura
* Temple of Elemental Evil

In any case, my point still stands that Troika, founded by the creators of Fallout, have a chance at making something better than Fallout because they're still finding their feet as a relatively new developer. BioWare, on the other hand, have been developing the same crap for years. Ipso facto, we can make a general assumption on what they're next game will be like. Especially when they say "our next game will be like X part of our previous games".

Keep in mind that Troika are also trying to make in-depth RPGs (they say so) compared to BioWare who have consistently gone for light-weight "good vs I'll-make-you-pay-therefore-I-am-evil" touted as something deeper. At least Troika know the difference and are willing to admit their mistakes.

2. Sure. BG2. MW. NWN. FF7. A good numbe rof other D&D crpgs as well. Oh, you meant with Vampire in ther name?

You fail to understand his point. You'll need to point out how Bloodlines is similar to any of the other Vampire games you think it is.

 

[Transcendent One]

Plus so far the two games Troika has have been very different from each other, and Bloodlines looks very different from the two of them as well, showing Troika isn't afraid to experiment with various styles. They might actually strike gold with one of them. But there's no hope for Bio, they are set in their style. But then you like their style, so for you it'd be different.

 

[Volourn]

1.Troika did not make Fallout. period. Theya re also not THE creators of Fallout; they are 8some* of the creators of Fallout. 3 (or 6) ouf the number who created Fallout is not enough to credit Fallout.

BI know Troika came after Bio. duh. However, the people you claim 'created" FO didn't exist ina volume before hand. Last i check, Tim Cain, the Head Honcho, has been making games fro a decade +. I mean, BIo came over from medical software of all things.

Huh, GH? According to DUL's list, BIo's games vary a great deal. Or are you gonna say SS is like BG2? LOL

 

[Transcendent One]

SS is one game, and not one of their most popular ones either. Their most popular games, BG, BG2, NWN, and KotOR all follow a very similar formula in their single player (I say single player because NWN was very different in it's multiplayer).

 

[Volourn]

Ahh.. How quick they forget MDK2.

 

[Dgaider]

Okay, if the Bloodlines favor is not as prevalent as I figured, my mistake. I certainly do not read every thread that pops up regarding it here. My impression simply was that it (and Troika in general) seems to be given the benefit of the doubt whereas Bioware is not. Whether you believe that is how that is for good reasons or not is certainly debateable... I'm not saying it isn't.

As for my having a sense of humor over the "we created elves" thing... I did laugh when I read that, actually. And I don't doubt that at some point PR will come out from Bioware that will state as much (or will be easily interpreted as such). PR is just like that in general, from Bio or Troika or anyone else, and all deservedly laughable. Hell, I read this morning that Fable's innovation is being able to make choices in an RPG!

And I don't take it to heart. The proof will be in the pudding, as they say, and no matter how yummy I say it is some folks will still spit it out.

 

[Spazmo]

Saying that Obsidian made Fallout is pretty much wrong, but feel free to throw them a Fallout 2 shaped bone.

As for Troika and Fallout, I went to the trouble of comparing the Mobygames credits for Fallout and Fallout 2 versus Arcanum. Here's all the people who worked on Fallout 1 and/or 2 before going to Troika.

Jason Anderson
Leonard Boyarsky
Tim Cain
Mark Harrison
Chris Jones
Michael McCarthy
Chad Moore
Jesse Reynolds
Sharon Shellman
Michael Dean
Thomas R. Decker

Eleven names. Given that the Arcanum team wasn't all that huge (despite a disturbing number of animators given how mediocre the animations in Arcanum were), that's a pretty significant sample. Few of these names showed up on ToEE, but that probably means they're working on Bloodlines. So yeah, there definitely is some truth to the idea that Troika made Fallout, probably a much more solid claim than Black Isle could lay in its later days.

 

[Volourn]

Still wrong. Troika didn't make Fallout. Employees (and owners0 of Troika HELPED make Fallout. HUGE difference.

 

[Shevek]

Still wrong. Troika didn't make Fallout. Employees (and owners0 of Troika HELPED make Fallout. HUGE difference.

I would say they led in it's design and that design's implementation.

 

[Dgaider]

Now you are just splitting hairs, Volourn. Even I understood what he means.

If the majority of Bioware's creative team up and moves to another company and those people work on a game, could it not be said a game they created is "by the makers of Baldur's Gate"? Of course they said, as it's largely true even if the actual company name wasn't behind the original.

Troika has some brilliant folks who have worked on some brilliant games. No reason to deny that... nor to deny the fact that they take more risks than Bioware does. I, for one, hope it pays off for them. Sadly, it didn't for Looking Glass.

 

[Sol Invictus]

There is no doubt that I'll be buying this game. With the exception of Neverwinter Nights (and its expansions), I can't say I didn't enjoy any of their other games. I did.

 

[Volourn]

Woah there.

I've never denied Troika's talent. In fact, Arcanum is one of my favorite games ever. I like it more than either KOTOR, or NWN for that matter. Their talent is not the issue here.

If, like in your example, you and 10 other BIO employees left to start another company, no, I wouldn't not say it was acceptable to state 'by the creators of x game'. It be acceptable to say 'by those who helped create x game'. Big difference. If you read their posts, they seem to want to give all 9or at least 90%) of the credit for Fallout to just a handful of people - all of which happen to be at troika and the main one being Mr. Cain. This just ins't so. It took tens of peopel to turn Fallout into the game it was; not just a small handful whoa re now at Troika.

As for splitting hairs, I just think it's a big jump from having some people who worked on x game to them creating x game basically giving them redit for x game.

P.S. I hope that can be followed, mish mash as it is of xs.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Sigh. I just hope you all know that Spazmo and Vault Dweller do NOT speak for all of the Codex staff. Heck, both Saint and I enjoyed KOTOR, for what it's worth. It might have not been the best game ever, or even the best RPG ever but I'll damn well say that it was a much more polish game than TOEE turned out to be.

Granted, I didn't much like the combat scheme of KOTOR, preferring simply the turn based combat of TOEE which was flawless, with the exception of some of the AI - bugs and performance issues notwithstanding this discussion but the content of KOTOR in terms of plot (unarguably a somewhat hackneyed amnesia plot), good characterizations and interesting 'situations' (e.g. the Romeo and Juliet situation) were certainly an nth time more interesting than the likewise aforementioned content of TOEE.

I won't even bring Arcanum into this. It had a good story (according to some), but I wouldn't know that - I couldn't bear the combat or the horrible character system to play it for more than a day. Anyone here who makes claims that the character system in Arcanum was either 'intuitive' or 'pleasingly complex' is no doubt a bigger, estrogenated fanboy than anyone could ever be. Baldur's Gate had its own shortcomings, but I wouldn't put the combat system anywhere close to Arcanum's (in terms of 'badness').

 

[Sol Invictus]

I think it's a little too early to tell whether Dragon Age is going to 'rock' or 'suck', so I'm going to stop myself from making any hard, permanent presumptions into the matter. It's one thing to presume that Carsten Strahse's Silver Style's The Fall is going to suck, based on their previous efforts, but seriously folks, how can you doubt Bioware's ability to produce at least a good game (with my personal exception of NWN)?

I guess dumping on Bioware is all the rage these days.

For me, I think the problem with NWN was its engine. The tiles and the constant running around for ridiculously similar quests made it feel very, very bland. Baldur's Gate might not have had the best combat (not by any standard, hah) but the game didn't give me that 'bland feeling' due to its variety of creative, individual locations. As a comparison, I can tell you that there's a huge difference between watching a big budget movie with a large variety of locations and a TV show with a series of a few poorly designed sets.

Playing NWN made me feel like I was watching a low budget TV show compared to Baldur's Gate and KOTOR's big silver screen effect.

 

[Shevek]

I would argue that Arcanum may not have had the best combat system but it was a great game in spite of this. Similar sentiments could be expressed for KoTOR. I would further state Arcanum's character system was very good and, with come better balance and polish, could have been great. I dont think of myself as an estrogenated fanboy but, hell, one label is as good as anyother.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Don't be silly. Nobody here is excited that Bloodlines is a) vampire game b) FPS c) real time d) has moron indicators. When it was announced it had a reaction very similar to that of DA :wink: The only thing that we do like about Bloodlines is multiple solutions. If DA has that too, we'd very happy to hear that. Your turn.

You might not be, but I kind of am - at least lately. I wasn't too interested at first initially, because it seemed rather bland, and, as you mention - has moron indicators which are now understood to be a high level perception-based ability for a certain vampire clan.

The recent E3 interviews have given us a lot more insight into the game, and with that insight, interest was generated.

Did I mention I liked First Person Shooters? There's really no point in having a top of the line rig with a Radeon 9800 XT without a good action game to play on it.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I am going to argue that Arcanum's character system was way, way too convoluted. Calling it a 'complicated' system would imply a positive connotation to what was, in fact, a character generation system burdened by pointless skills and a training system that served as more of a chore than as an actual innovation into game immersion by forcing you to find trainers.

Even MMORPGs don't force you to find specific trainers each time you need to learn a new skill.

 

[Shevek]

I don't quite see how it was convoluted. It seemed to be a pretty straightforward point based, GURPs inspired system to me. Other than a few spells being overpowered and the schematics system not sufficiently developed, I found nothing wrong with the system. What skills do you feel were extranious and why? What facet of the system exactly lost you?

Edit:
Why are you confounded by having to find trainers? And why exactly does it matter what MMOs do and don't do?

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Volourn, are you truly surprised that some folks here are not about to give Bioware the benefit of the doubt? They look on every piece of info coming out from Bioware and cast it in the worst light possible. Whoo, shocker.

Announce a sci-fi CRPG built on the concept of freeform planetary exploration with multiple story arcs, skills based/classless character system that's not d20, turn based tactical ship to ship combat as well as squad level turn based combat for both boarding and planetside combat, with an interstellar trade model - I'll have your love child.

But really, another generic fantasy game isn't going to be that interesting to a lot of us. It's just flogging a dead horse, been done way too much. I'd rather have fantasy with a twist, something like Arcanum or Deadlands. Something that's been done, but not completely done to death.

Many of us here don't like the automated real-time with pause combat system, especially not the one from KotOR.

As for Bloodlines, I don't typically enjoy first person CRPGs. I don't like the Vampire: the Masquerade setting much either. So, it's definitely the first Troika game I haven't been very interested in compared to the rest. I'll admit that the character system shots have made me a little more interested, though.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I don't quite see how it was convoluted. It seemed to be a pretty straightforward point based, GURPs inspired system to me. Other than a few spells being overpowered and the schematics system not sufficiently developed, I found nothing wrong with the system. What skills do you feel were extranious and why? What facet of the system exactly lost you?

Edit:
Why are you confounded by having to find trainers? And why exactly does it matter what MMOs do and don't do?

It was boring and pointless as shit.

Is that simple enough for you?