Immersive Sims

[Melcar]

Immersive simps

 

[RoSoDude]

I gotta question for you: Do you know if Dishonored uses a similar Stimulus/Response-style system to Thief/System Shock 2/Prey? I've tried looking up information on this but the best I could find was that list of Prey's Signals off your own twitter. Also, where did you manage to get that from? Cause I love sifting through this kinda shit. Bioshock as well if you know anything about how that one works.

I got Prey's signals list by decrypting and extracting the game data archive for the purpose of modding the game. There are a bunch of .xml files defining all of the game entities, player properties, loot tables, upgrade trees, and many other things, including the signal system they bolted onto CryEngine. The signals are just IDs that the game uses use to propagate damage and other event tags, which are bundled together in "packages" of signals. Here's an annotated screenshot I happen to have for the Corrosive Gas package, with some signals having quantities that get used for calculating damage and others are just tags. The tags are used by the signal receiver groups, which collect signals that all produce the same effect, like breaking GLOO or damaging electrical junction boxes. They're also used by the signal modifiers, which implement enemy resistances to certain damage types, played damage bonuses and defenses from upgrades and gear, and damage multipliers for the difficulty settings. Many of the game systems employ signals for their basic functionality, for example all status effects/traumas activate on accumulation of signals up to a threshold, such as fire signals for the burn trauma, or crush signals for the bone fracture trauma, or sharp signals for the bleed trauma, or even food signals for the WellFed status effect. And of course the various interactions of GLOO with the environment and other entities are driven by signals, from freezing enemies to plugging flaming gas leaks to blocking electric arcs. It's clearly a replica of Act/React in service of the same ends.

I can't confirm if Dishonored uses a similar system, but I would guess it does. The game isn't as open to modding, really the only tool out there is the Dishonored Field Editor, which is basically just a hex editor for the game binaries. As for Bioshock I wouldn't know, a better person to ask would be ciox who attempted the only real Bioshock mod and knows a lot about the systems that were originally implemented before they streamlined a ton of it.


EDIT: someone should also take a look at Arx Fatalis, whose C++ source code is out there on the internet.

 

[kangaxx]

This is a fucking interesting thread, thanks chaps.

 

[ciox]

I gotta question for you: Do you know if Dishonored uses a similar Stimulus/Response-style system to Thief/System Shock 2/Prey? I've tried looking up information on this but the best I could find was that list of Prey's Signals off your own twitter. Also, where did you manage to get that from? Cause I love sifting through this kinda shit. Bioshock as well if you know anything about how that one works.

I can't confirm if Dishonored uses a similar system, but I would guess it does. The game isn't as open to modding, really the only tool out there is the Dishonored Field Editor, which is basically just a hex editor for the game binaries. As for Bioshock I wouldn't know, a better person to ask would be ciox who attempted the only real Bioshock mod and knows a lot about the systems that were originally implemented before they streamlined a ton of it.

Bioshock was set up with something vaguely resembling stims, they even use the "stimulus" name internally, but the implementation wasn't as flexible as it was in Thief or System Shock 2 with the Dark Engine.

Thief designers can configure quite complex stimulus reactions just by typing in a few dialogue boxes, most of the complexity comes from effects like Set Property or Add Metaproperty, since properties define almost everything about how an object behaves, and you are able to change them with stims.
Bioshock designers could edit ini files and link "stims" to melee weapons, projectiles, explosions and plasmids, but the effects of the stims are mostly about damaging or stunning an NPC, and while more complex effects exist, like "Enrage" to make NPCs go berserk, they are hardcoded and you would need to talk to a programmer to create or modify such effects.
There was an effort to make some effects configurable like specify how long a stun or slowdown effect lasts, but the system isn't flexible enough for you to create new effects from scratch, because object properties just aren't exposed directly like in Dark and complex effects are hardcoded.

Example of what you can do in Bioshock's engine without writing any code: you can make pistol ammo that will stun, burn and berserk enemies on hit, or a plasmid that does the same
Example of what you can do in Dark engine without writing any code: you can make an arrow that creates a special zone that causes enemies entering it to become semi-transparent, unable to speak, unable to see or hear, move at % speed, become not just berserk but allies or enemies with a specific faction or team, etc

Bioshock Weapons.ini https://pastebin.com/raw/8AZxDLjR
Bioshock ModEffects.ini https://pastebin.com/sV6wq6C5

 

[ciox]

What's weird is that vanilla Thief and System Shock 2 actually don't gothat far with using the stimulus system, there are some interesting interactions to be sure, but it's mostly custom content that goes deep into pushing the system to its limits.

It should also be noted that Bioshock's developers did try to implement some of the original promises of Thief's stimulus system, like fire that spreads to flammable objects, and water that can be frozen to create walkable platforms... albeit without a stimulus system. The effects are hardcoded and freezing water is location dependent aka scripted, but attempts were made nonetheless.

 

[ds]

EDIT: someone should also take a look at Arx Fatalis, whose C++ source code is out there on the internet.

Arx Fatalis doesn't have declarative configuration for system interactions or other entity properties. Instead all entity behavior is controlled by scripts written in a custom language - either by setting properties for built in behavior (which is fairly limited as far as interactions go but does e.g. include resistance to specific damage types for NPCs) or by handling events sent by either the engine or other entities. There's a list of events sent by the engine on the Arx Libertatis Wiki but I haven't gotten around to document most of them. The on hit event does include flags for the damage type. None-damage stimuli like collisions have their own events.

However as I mentioned previously, AF really doesn't simulate systems all that much and many interactions are instead explicitly scripted. Another example here is cooking food by placing it near a fireplace. A systems-based approach would be to have the fireplace emit heat or fire damage and then have the food react to that. But that's not how cooking is implemented in AF - instead there is a trigger zone around each fireplace that whose controlling script will (if the fire is active) tell items entering the zone zone to cook themselves. Unfortunately this also means that some expected interactions like speed-frying your chicken drumsticks with a fireball don't work. Meanwhile, killing a chicken with a fireball (or rather while a fireball spell is active) does produce a roasted chicken - but only because that is implemented that way and only for the fireball spell. But only for the fireball spell specifically, not for other fire spells. Evidently they have learned their lesson and changed the approach in their later games.

 

[Silva]

Blood West seems interesting but Hunt Showdown takes the cake on western supernatural immersive sims, even with multiplayer.

Hunt Showdown is amazing. I don't think I ever saw a multiplayer stealth as well executed as it. That one from Chaos Theory (mercs vs spies?) comes a far second IMHO.

 

[Egosphere]

I've tried my hand at drawing up such a chart a little while back. Positioning is susceptible to personal biases ofc, and it's probably best to avoid thinking of the opposite corners as being actual opposites, rather than just vectors going into different directions. I guess my definitions of 'RPG' and 'Stealth' find themselves on opposite ends because RPGs are those that abstract all mechanics and subsume them into numbers, whilst stealth builds around navigating a 3d environment based off cues signalled by the game in audio-visual format.

The 'circles' don't signify much, simply the outer slices that are named, the imm-sim star in the centre, and the intersections of two genres in between.

I've tosses out the new Deus Ex games and put them in Stealth action right beside MGS3, which I think is fair. I don't see how Human revolution is immersive. There are places where you cant jump a railing towards your own death, I don't remember the environment being very responsive, iirc they changed the limb health system to a standard health bar etc. I think MGS3 is more of an immersive sim than Human Revolution, even though it's not part of the genre either.

Some of the positioning is deliberate. HL2 is more of an immersive sim than a few other shooters. I think Witcher 1 is more of an RPG than Witcher 3, TES stays close to the genre throughout but evolves into more of an action-fest away from the stat centric Morrowind. Other games don't reflect that. There are several I have yet to play on that list as well.

 

[Harthwain]

Out of curiosity, why Dark Souls and Bloodborne are in different categories? I thought they are pretty much the same thing, just set in different settings?

 

[LarryTyphoid]

HL2 is more of an immersive sim than a few other shooters.

Wouldn't this apply more to HL1? HL1 has plenty of "immersive sim" elements like weirdly detailed NPC behaviors, as can be seen in MarphitimusBlackimus's YouTube videos.



I can't really think of equivalents for HL2, except for the details in the Combine's radio transmissions (like how the last surviving member of a group yells "outbreak, outbreak!" when all his squadmates are dead). I don't know if this stuff counts as "immersive sim" elements anyway.

 

[Egosphere]

Out of curiosity, why Dark Souls and Bloodborne are in different categories? I thought they are pretty much the same thing, just set in different settings?

Bloodborne had less stats, and its stats fell less impactful than DS's. All of the possible builds in BB were equivalent to dex builds in DS. You will always dodge/parry every attack, you will always have ample endurance to wildly swing at an enemy etc. DS stats gave replays more variety.

 

[ds]

Is Amnesia TDD really considered to be an ImmSim or close to one? It's a mostly on rails horror-themed puzzler with occasional monsters which you can't even damage at all.

 

[LarryTyphoid]

Is Amnesia TDD really considered to be an ImmSim or close to one? It's a mostly on rails horror-themed puzzler with occasional monsters which you can't even damage at all.

You can pick up all the objects and rotate them around, all the doors and drawers are moved directly by the player's mouse input, there's shadow-based stealth mechanics, and the game generally avoids taking away the player's control with context-sensitive animations or strict scripted events. I guess that's enough for some people.

Also you can lean with Q and E which is an imsim must-have.

 

[Zarniwoop]

It's a simulator that is immersive

So Train Simulator and Faming Simulator win.

Or, this is the dumbest category gaming "journalists" have ever tried to make a thing and all the games listed are either ARPG (like Desu Ex), FPS (most of the rest) or First Person Stealth games like Thiaf and Dishonored.

 

[Egosphere]

HL2 is more of an immersive sim than a few other shooters.

Wouldn't this apply more to HL1? HL1 has plenty of "immersive sim" elements like weirdly detailed NPC behaviors, as can be seen in MarphitimusBlackimus's YouTube videos.



I can't really think of equivalents for HL2, except for the details in the Combine's radio transmissions (like how the last surviving member of a group yells "outbreak, outbreak!" when all his squadmates are dead). I don't know if this stuff counts as "immersive sim" elements anyway.

Yes, HL1 and 2 could be interchangeable there. Picked 2 for the reason that they their implementation of physics gave more options.

Is Amnesia TDD really considered to be an ImmSim or close to one? It's a mostly on rails horror-themed puzzler with occasional monsters which you can't even damage at all.

I actually stuck it in the wrong place. It's supposed to be beside Alien Isolation. I moved it and forgot to return it.

 

[LarryTyphoid]

I just realized that this chart is some AI ChatGPT bullshit. I should've known.

 

[Melcar]

I just realized that this chart is some AI ChatGPT bullshit. I should've known.

Everything is AI Bro. Even this thread is AI.

 

[Rocket-Propelled Game]

Deep Rock Galactic is surprisingly imsim-my in some regards.

-Toxic gas of any sort is consistently flammable which can be an asset or a hazard. The sludge from the Driller's poop thrower can also be lit on fire to double-whammy anything walking across it.
-The Driller's flamethrower actually melts away terrain on the Glacier biome, albeit slowly.
-Any explosion on the Magma biome turns the terrain near it into lava/hot rock. This means the Driller's missile launcher and a good chunk of the throwable weapons. Aim carefully!
-Regional variants of the passive/non-hostile fauna that can make things INTERESTING. Nothing like a magma maggot crawling over some minerals you're chipping away at and then the thing explodes in your face.

There's other details I'll try and recall later.

 

[General Disarray]

Wouldn't survival games in general fall in to the immersive sims component of system-driven emergent gameplay if modeled far enough? That's usually their strength and signum compared to other genres. But let say that we require more rpg elements you can still generally spec your character like in 7 days to die where you can spec your character into farming where the plants actually requires light to grow, system depended gameplay. Survival games also naturally focuses on embodiment.

Lets take Outward which is a rpg/survival game which has a lighting system that affect visibility and detection, both in terms of AI detection range and in you cant's fucking see shit without a light in a dark dungeon. It has an alchemy system that can alter properties on your character like stealth and regen. Crafting, day/night & weather ( with a warm cold system affecting health), magic system which allows you to produces light and set camps alight. Not to mention the systemic design of Zelda: Breath of the wild where you can literarily set fields on fire, which in turns create upward winds which you can fly up on. Even Red Dead 2, properly modded, can turn in to system-driven survival world. But it lacks the true interaction with the world as in BoTW or of Thief advanced surface interaction model, but Deus Ex was a bit lacking in surface or none entity interaction as well.

If we only consider Dishonored and the modern likes to be ImSims then we are really only talking about Deus Ex & Thief likes. Or more generously "Break in games" to flip on the more current popular "Extraction shooter" genre as Escape from Tarkov. In that case we can really just drop the discussion sense the Immersive Sim genre doesn't really mean anything different. And the people defending this view point would never be convinced of anything else, ever, anyways.

But if we consider Immersive Sims more of Design Development™ then we must allow newer games that might look difference because they can support bigger games on modern hardware. System design becomes interesting because today games like Zelda: Breath of the wild allows system to mean much more than "smash, hack or shoot rocket at lock entity", literally the whole world can now consist of systems that interacts with each other.

In that case I would consider modern survival games to be ImSims legacies, also survival/rpgs like BoTW and Outward. Even hardcore flight/rally games with character/vehicle sheets could also be included, but I won't defend that position, yet.

If we focus more on the "immersed into the area" than we should look more into games with extensive environment detail than systems, something I remembered feeling especially in the Hong Kong map in Deus Ex. But in that case, I'm not saying it to offend, that put us almost more to LARPing direction, which I think don't need to be bad. Than games with well expanded world settings would start to qualify like San Andreas, Maffia, Red Dead 2, Cyberpunk 2077, modded online rpg servers in GTA even Forza Horizon games. Any game that allows you to lose yourself into the world could than be considered a legacy of ImSims.

 

[GrafvonMoltke]

I've tried my hand at drawing up such a chart a little while back. Positioning is susceptible to personal biases ofc, and it's probably best to avoid thinking of the opposite corners as being actual opposites, rather than just vectors going into different directions. I guess my definitions of 'RPG' and 'Stealth' find themselves on opposite ends because RPGs are those that abstract all mechanics and subsume them into numbers, whilst stealth builds around navigating a 3d environment based off cues signalled by the game in audio-visual format.

The 'circles' don't signify much, simply the outer slices that are named, the imm-sim star in the centre, and the intersections of two genres in between.

I've tosses out the new Deus Ex games and put them in Stealth action right beside MGS3, which I think is fair. I don't see how Human revolution is immersive. There are places where you cant jump a railing towards your own death, I don't remember the environment being very responsive, iirc they changed the limb health system to a standard health bar etc. I think MGS3 is more of an immersive sim than Human Revolution, even though it's not part of the genre either.

Some of the positioning is deliberate. HL2 is more of an immersive sim than a few other shooters. I think Witcher 1 is more of an RPG than Witcher 3, TES stays close to the genre throughout but evolves into more of an action-fest away from the stat centric Morrowind. Other games don't reflect that. There are several I have yet to play on that list as well.

Where's Monopoly?

 

[ciox]

Deep Rock Galactic is surprisingly imsim-my in some regards.

-Toxic gas of any sort is consistently flammable which can be an asset or a hazard. The sludge from the Driller's poop thrower can also be lit on fire to double-whammy anything walking across it.
-The Driller's flamethrower actually melts away terrain on the Glacier biome, albeit slowly.
-Any explosion on the Magma biome turns the terrain near it into lava/hot rock. This means the Driller's missile launcher and a good chunk of the throwable weapons. Aim carefully!
-Regional variants of the passive/non-hostile fauna that can make things INTERESTING. Nothing like a magma maggot crawling over some minerals you're chipping away at and then the thing explodes in your face.

There's other details I'll try and recall later.

Wait til you hear about Noita.

 

[Spacer's Nugget]

What could have been...

 

[Modron]

What could have been....

There were going to be multiple factions… depending on how you played each mission, you could make different groups pleased or disappointed. Later missions would be affected by this. while there wasn’t going to be an overall branching mission structure, each mission in the game could be changed in minor ways that would affect the flow and difficulty.

Alpha Protocol 0 huh?

 

[Dave the Druid]

Monopoly is an immersive sim

So I was looking into some of the writings of Marc 'MAHK' LeBlanc (he's an ex-Looking Glass vet and the guy who designed Thief's/System Shock 2's whole Act/React system that I was banging on about earlier in the thread.) Anyway, I had discovered the old MDA (Mechanics, Dynamics, Aesthetics) framework that he co-wrote along with Robin Hunicke and Robert Zubeck back in the early 2000s and was reading through it when I came across this:

Holy shit, you might be right. Monopoly actually is an immersive sim. What the fuck?

 

[GrafvonMoltke]

Wait a second, I was right about something?