Is it possible to create a 'true successor' to Baldur's gate?

[SwiftCrack]

Anomen is indeed trying to become a Knight of the order, he already was part of the order for a long time but then <plot devices and backstory>. The order is for (lawful good human?) paladins and clerics only.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I liked the magic system in D&D. I liked the way magic was treated as a science as opposed to pew pew superhero shit. I also don't know what type of "Tolkien" you guys are reading, but in the books magic works exactly like it does in D&D. Gandalf only uses his spells at critical moments. The reason why he does so has nothing to do with the system Gygax came up with but in practical terms the end result is the same, in so far as the role wizards play in the narrative and adventuring goes. And the only reason the system doesn't work so well in computer games is because they removed all strategic elements from sleeping. Obviously, if you can sleep at any time and everywhere, the whole concept behind the system is invalidated. This is why IE games are best played by limiting sleep as much as possible.

 

[nomask7]

I liked the magic system in D&D. I liked the way magic was treated as a science as opposed to pew pew superhero shit. I also don't know what type of "Tolkien" you guys are reading, but in the books magic works exactly like it does in D&D. Gandalf only uses his spells at critical moments. The reason why he does so has nothing to do with the system Gygax came up with but in practical terms the end result is the same, in so far as the role wizards play in the narrative and adventuring goes. And the only reason the system doesn't work so well in computer games is because they removed all strategic elements from sleeping. Obviously, if you can sleep at any time and everywhere, the whole concept behind the system is invalidated. This is why IE games are best played by limiting sleep as much as possible.

BG character skill & progression system is so simple, and your companion choices and party creation so restricted, you wouldn't be able to turn BG into an interesting 'strategy' game like Wizardry 6 anyway.

 

[SkeleTony]

Are you for real mate? you dont like the system because it limits the usage of spells and because you need magical gear not to die against creatures that robin hood couldnt have possibly slayed anyway?

Not at all (please read what I write before responding). The problem is that fucking CONAN needs all that silly magic gear just to avoid dying at the hands of a small group of low level creatures and to make him at all comparable to his status in the books A Conan without rings of protection and magic armor in AD&D could not do a fraction of what the character does regularly in books. And the main point that you are missing is that they HAD TO give these characters these magic items to even try representing them in AD&D terms because the system did not really allow for skills and experience and natural attributes to be the way of character development.

So now "fun" is a bizarre rationalization? You are the stupid close minded cuck here, not i.

Then why must you attack straw men rather than deal with my actual arguments? No one said "fun is a bizarre rationalization" you Bronie.

Sure, theres no perfect system, i was expecting at the very least a valid point.

You mean you were expecting valid points that were dumbed down enough so you could grasp them. Fine.

1) the "Fire and forget" magic system does not make any sense and does not simulate the magic that is generally seen in most heroic fantasy books and movies and such. It cannot be rationalized away as "mystic energy leaving once you cast a spell" becuase even after casting "Mirror image" and "blur", you still have plenty of "mystic energy" to cast 3 magic missiles, a fireball etc. The 'energy' is not disappearing. The actual MEMORY of the spell is vanishing and the system quantifies memories in such a bizarre way that magic users have to memorize specific quantities of spells and then lose one exact quantity for each specific casting. If you would care to try and make sense of this I am all ears.

2) The "saving throw" system makes no sense. Like it or not at least Runequest explained in detail WHY they did things the way they did for each rule in which any might wonder. But (A)D&D does not even try to explain why one class can avoid (only half of) dragon breath damage and this other class is better at resisting wands and yet another class avoids the effects of paralyzing (even if part of a "breath" attack?!) etc. and while newer editions of D&D do at least give some small modifiers for specific attributes, OD&D did not.

3) Hit points in D&D make no sense. The designers tried to rationalize that HP were a mish-mash of several things like physique, experience, stamina, 'dodgy-ness' and so forth but this just added even more confusion and cluster-fuckery. A high level fighter gets better save throws to avoid dragon's breath damage (again, only half) and he gets massive amounts of hit points which I guess comes back to that rationalization that HP represent combat experience, luck/fate, etc. but A) Why does "Cure Light wounds" work as it does? If HP are not necessarily physical damage but cure light wounds IS the repairing of physical damage (i.e. it is not a "cure lost luck" or "cure stamina"). Why does a massive dragon breath attack do more damage to luck/fate, combat experience than a dozen sword stabbings? And B) Why are there saving trows at all? HtH Combat does not use save throws so why can't simple success/failure rolls and tests against skills be used to determine how well or poorly one avoided damage from dragon's breath or to resist a sleep spell?

4) This mostly applies to OD&D and AD&D but why do thieves use a percentile system to climb walls, hide in shadows, listen at doors etc. but dwarves use a 'roll a d6 and notice secret doors on a 1-4' system, (half-)elves use a percentage system to resist sleep but the save throw system uses a d20 roll? Why can't a magic user even pick up a sword or learn to use it? Why can't a cleric of a 'God of Murder' use edged weapons?

I could go on and on and on but I will let you chew on those for a bit.

Uh? As i said, i found it perfectly entertaining as it was. there is no "nostalgia" involved in this, its a fair assesment of the system inner workings and how they impact the gameplay. Narratively speaking it isnt bad either, we never see inexperienced characters spamming magic in literature. Plus it made possible a dynamic in which you can have both variety and power in magic, without getting too out of hand until the later levels.

Uh...even if that is to whatever extent true, you do realize that games like RQ did this MUCH better back in 1978 without the convoluted tables of specific spells that could be memorized and cast. Ever noticed how no RPG designs since RQ have opted for Vancian magic and instead 90% of them use a Power/spell point system like RQ's? Even AD&D's designers wanted desperately to change the system to use a spell point system as far back as 2nd edition (where it was announced in Dragon magazine that they would be doing so...until they got the nostalgic "You better not change anything I am familiar with or I will quit RPGS!" mail. If Vancian magic made anywhere near as much sense then you should expect most fantasy RPGs trying to emulate such.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Nothing makes any sense. Everything is stupid. Look how totally smart i am.

 

[octavius]

Not at all (please read what I write before responding). The problem is that fucking CONAN needs all that silly magic gear just to avoid dying at the hands of a small group of low level creatures and to make him at all comparable to his status in the books A Conan without rings of protection and magic armor in AD&D could not do a fraction of what the character does regularly in books. And the main point that you are missing is that they HAD TO give these characters these magic items to even try representing them in AD&D terms because the system did not really allow for skills and experience and natural attributes to be the way of character development.

Conan wouldn't fit in any system where you have competent archers and mages.
Conan's world is low magic. Not as low magic as Middle Earth, but very low compared to Forgotten Realms.
Shoehorning a melee character into a setting ruled by powerful wizards, and think he would come out on top, would probably fail even if it didn't use Vancian magic.

 

[octavius]

Nothing makes any sense. Everything is stupid. Look how totally smart i am.

S*M*R*T*

 

[Excidium II]

Is anybody even reading all that shit

 

[Mortmal]

Is anybody even reading all that shit

Course not , the same guys will still say POE was the successor and everything is perfect, especially when you get it for free. The others who knows poe was far to achieve that , will discuss about some dream game that will never happen as no professionnal team will undertake it .True rpg dont bring enough money.

 

[Excidium II]

Yeah. CRPGs with millionaire budgets are guaranteed meh

 

[Lhynn]

Sigh, here we go.

Not at all (please read what I write before responding). The problem is that fucking CONAN needs all that silly magic gear just to avoid dying at the hands of a small group of low level creatures and to make him at all comparable to his status in the books A Conan without rings of protection and magic armor in AD&D could not do a fraction of what the character does regularly in books. And the main point that you are missing is that they HAD TO give these characters these magic items to even try representing them in AD&D terms because the system did not really allow for skills and experience and natural attributes to be the way of character development.

Does he? just give him a higher level, if 10 isnt enough make him 20, if 20 isnt enough make him 30, give him special abilities, make him a custom kit, use optional weapon specialization rules, etc. Plus fighters in AD&D were fucking powerhouses, so i dont see what your problem is with him "not being as powerful". He can probably murder a wizard with a single hit easily.

Then why must you attack straw men rather than deal with my actual arguments? No one said "fun is a bizarre rationalization" you Bronie.

Bronie? at least my insults make sense you shithead.

You mean you were expecting valid points that were dumbed down enough so you could grasp them. Fine.

I was expecting valid points in an argument, yes you stupid cuck.

1) the "Fire and forget" magic system does not make any sense and does not simulate the magic that is generally seen in most heroic fantasy books and movies and such. It cannot be rationalized away as "mystic energy leaving once you cast a spell" becuase even after casting "Mirror image" and "blur", you still have plenty of "mystic energy" to cast 3 magic missiles, a fireball etc. The 'energy' is not disappearing. The actual MEMORY of the spell is vanishing and the system quantifies memories in such a bizarre way that magic users have to memorize specific quantities of spells and then lose one exact quantity for each specific casting. If you would care to try and make sense of this I am all ears.

Its not fire and forget, it has both easily interruptible casting time and components. its not about mere mystical energy, its mystical energy engraved on a formula in your mind, both leave when used, why? magic.

2) The "saving throw" system makes no sense. Like it or not at least Runequest explained in detail WHY they did things the way they did for each rule in which any might wonder. But (A)D&D does not even try to explain why one class can avoid (only half of) dragon breath damage and this other class is better at resisting wands and yet another class avoids the effects of paralyzing (even if part of a "breath" attack?!) etc. and while newer editions of D&D do at least give some small modifiers for specific attributes, OD&D did not.

Abstraction you shithead. look it up. Also AD&D does give attribute modifiers to saving throws.

3) Hit points in D&D make no sense. The designers tried to rationalize that HP were a mish-mash of several things like physique, experience, stamina, 'dodgy-ness' and so forth but this just added even more confusion and cluster-fuckery. A high level fighter gets better save throws to avoid dragon's breath damage (again, only half) and he gets massive amounts of hit points which I guess comes back to that rationalization that HP represent combat experience, luck/fate, etc. but A) Why does "Cure Light wounds" work as it does? If HP are not necessarily physical damage but cure light wounds IS the repairing of physical damage (i.e. it is not a "cure lost luck" or "cure stamina"). Why does a massive dragon breath attack do more damage to luck/fate, combat experience than a dozen sword stabbings? And B) Why are there saving trows at all? HtH Combat does not use save throws so why can't simple success/failure rolls and tests against skills be used to determine how well or poorly one avoided damage from dragon's breath or to resist a sleep spell?

Abstraction, look it up. Basically hp means for how long you can sustain punishment without it being lethal, healing both recovers the tissue and replenishes some of the vitaly and energy one has. as for the breath weapon doing so much damage, it is said its so strong it can melt stone and desintegrate flesh in a matter of seconds, that is a lot more than some puny stabs. Saving throws represent how the experience of the character allows him to act in the best possible way to diminish the effect of whatever the fuck happens to him if applicable. I shouldnt have to explain this to you, its not mental gymnastics, its fucking basic abstraction.

4) This mostly applies to OD&D and AD&D but why do thieves use a percentile system to climb walls, hide in shadows, listen at doors etc. but dwarves use a 'roll a d6 and notice secret doors on a 1-4' system, (half-)elves use a percentage system to resist sleep but the save throw system uses a d20 roll? Why can't a magic user even pick up a sword or learn to use it? Why can't a cleric of a 'God of Murder' use edged weapons?

Abstraction, look it up.
Mages can pick up any weapon, they only have a -5 to it, or they can devote their time studying them and getting a level in fighter if they are talented enough, of course for that they need to abandon their studies. Clerics have their own kits, they have special powers and limitations.

I could go on and on and on but I will let you chew on those for a bit.

Yeah, you are better off using the dictionary to look up the word "abstraction". Any decent DM can give context to the actions after the rolls were made, while keeping it coherent. "He happened to find cover" "his will is too strong to be affected by your magic" "Your way of doing things is different from their way of doing things, it stands to reason that the check is different".

Uh...even if that is to whatever extent true, you do realize that games like RQ did this MUCH better back in 1978 without the convoluted tables of specific spells that could be memorized and cast. Ever noticed how no RPG designs since RQ have opted for Vancian magic and instead 90% of them use a Power/spell point system like RQ's? Even AD&D's designers wanted desperately to change the system to use a spell point system as far back as 2nd edition (where it was announced in Dragon magazine that they would be doing so...until they got the nostalgic "You better not change anything I am familiar with or I will quit RPGS!" mail. If Vancian magic made anywhere near as much sense then you should expect most fantasy RPGs trying to emulate such.

I dont even understand your complain here "this system sucks because its not exactly like other system"? "This system sucks because its convoluted and thats bad because its not to my personal preference"? are you fucking stupid mate?

 

[Excidium II]

Good magic systems fuck the mage up.

 

[SkeleTony]

Conan wouldn't fit in any system where you have competent archers and mages.
Conan's world is low magic. Not as low magic as Middle Earth, but very low compared to Forgotten Realms.
Shoehorning a melee character into a setting ruled by powerful wizards, and think he would come out on top, would probably fail even if it didn't use Vancian magic.

Objection! Relevance...? I am not aware of Conan making appearances in other settings.

Also you are very wrong here. the BRP system has zero trouble with Conan, Elric, Middle earth or any other characters from any other settings (even Larry Niven's Ringworld and Lovecraft's Cthulhu, Elfquest, Superheroes etc.). The same is argued for HERO and GURPS. Making the bald assertion that no system can accurately represent fictional characters will not work here.

 

[Excidium II]

So this is all about RQ > D&D?

Everyone knows that ffs

 

[DeepOcean]

Is it possible to create a 'true successor' to Baldur's gate?

No, Obsidian doesn't give a flying fuck and just want some quick buck as fast as possible and Bioware is just too occupied providing waifus for pervert losers. There are only three RPG companies with potential to make decent "big budget" RPGs right now, HBS, Larian and InXile but I prefer them to continue making TB games anyway.

 

[octavius]

Objection! Relevance...? I am not aware of Conan making appearances in other settings.

Also you are very wrong here. the BRP system has zero trouble with Conan, Elric, Middle earth or any other characters from any other settings (even Larry Niven's Ringworld and Lovecraft's Cthulhu, Elfquest, Superheroes etc.). The same is argued for HERO and GURPS. Making the bald assertion that no system can accurately represent fictional characters will not work here.

My point was that Conan doesn't fit in AD&D due to the settings (Forgotten Realms, at least) is ruled by Wizards and divinities, not due to the rules and game mechanics. Any lvl 40 Fighter using only melee weapons would have no chance whatsover against a high level Wizard, unless said Wizard was unprepared and/or has just spent all his spells. But now that you mention it, that is actually a weakness of (A)D&D, at least in the computer versions; you never meet anything but fully prepared mages.

 

[SkeleTony]

Sigh, here we go.

Does he? just give him a higher level, if 10 isnt enough make him 20, if 20 isnt enough make him 30, give him special abilities, make him a custom kit, use optional weapon specialization rules, etc. Plus fighters in AD&D were fucking powerhouses, so i dont see what your problem is with him "not being as powerful". He can probably murder a wizard with a single hit easily.

I think there are reasons why even AD&D's designers did not think this was a good idea. For starters, what if the module takes place when Conan is still young but fully adult? In the books Conan is rarely hit with a weapon and never takes serious damage because of his reflexes and combat skills but not because he has absurd number of hit points and especially not because he was wearing rings of protection and carrying magical shields and shit.

Bronie? at least my insults make sense you shithead.

Yeah..."cuck" is totally sensible and not being spammed by 3 out of 5 teenagers all over the net. Also aren't you the guy who gets freaky when pictures of anime 'My Little Ponies' are around?! If you are not that guy then I apologize for the mistake but man you and your dad look alike.

*cymbal crash*

You ready to stop with the twerping and address my points kiddo?

I was expecting valid points in an argument, yes you stupid cuck.

That is what you got and I await your thoughtful responses showing them to be invalid.

Its not fire and forget, it has both easily interruptible casting time and components.

LOL! WTF is the matter with you junior? The spell system quite literally IS 'fire and forget' and casting times and interupts are irrelevant to this. You memorize a spell, you cast that spell, then you forget that spell (unless of course you (somehow) memorized the spell multiple times(?!).

its not about mere mystical energy, its mystical energy engraved on a formula in your mind, both leave when used, why? magic.

Reminds me of that cartoon where the creationist is scribbling a massive but incomplete formula on a chalkboard then writes in big letters "Then a MIRACLE HAPPENS!". So "it's magic" does it for you eh? Fucking Bronies. How many fantasy books used such a system aside from the silly Jack Vance book and the slew of crap churned out by TSR to make more money off the game and prop up the game? You see THAT is the important question. If you are making a RPG for GENERAL heroic fantasy gaming within you do not use some bizaare magic system that appeared in one book which barely fits the genre and is not generally considered very good and certainly was not popular. If I want to make a game emulating Hong Kong action cinema then I have to look beyond just Sonny Chiba or Jackie Chan (and those two were WAY more popular in HK cinema than Jack Vance ever was in the genre of 'science fantasy'.

Abstraction you shithead. look it up. Also AD&D does give attribute modifiers to saving throws.

Yeah I know what abstraction is and how it plays into game design. I am not sure you do as you are coming off like someone who just learned the word and came away with a silly understanding of such. Why don't you list these attribute modifiers the existed for OD&D/First ed. AD&D then?
May have been a limited one like high wisdom granting a bonus vs. mentalism attacks or some such but my oldfag memory may be on the fritz or something.

Abstraction, look it up. Basically hp means for how long you can sustain punishment without it being lethal,...

So you disagree with Gygax and Co. on this point? Because I would have less of a problem with HP if it were defined the way you define it. Of course that does not begin to explain why HP go up with character levels but I guess I can only ask for so much eh?

healing both recovers the tissue and replenishes some of the vitaly and energy one has.

You mean stamina? You are linking stamina with HP? So if my character decides to sprint around a pond 25 times in 2 minutes I will lose a LOT of HP right? And dragging an exhausted person into a temple for the Cleric to heal (because you could not afford to just stay a few minutes at the bar) is somehow differentiated from the guy with the big slash marks across his body in terms of damage they are suffering?

as for the breath weapon doing so much damage, it is said its so strong it can melt stone and desintegrate flesh in a matter of seconds, that is a lot more than some puny stabs.

WTF are you talking about?! All that is relevant here is how much damage occurs and what effect this has on the one taking such damage. In AD&D, according to YOU, the guy running circles around the pond and the guy being blasted in his face with dragon fire are in the same boat. According to Gygax and Co. things are even worse as we cannot even know if any physical damage took place whether a guy has 88 hit points or 1 hit point. But the heal spells will still work on either as long as they have less than max HP.

Saving throws represent how the experience of the character allows him to act in the best possible way to diminish the effect of whatever the fuck happens to him if applicable. I shouldnt have to explain this to you, its not mental gymnastics, its fucking basic abstraction.

Just a heads up here kiddo but you might want to think long and hard about the problems with your own position and arguments before you fly off the handle trying to dole out lame insults. You end up looking like Beth Coirea did against Rowdy Rhonda.

Abstraction, look it up.

Again, I am glad you are learning words and shit but you must learn to use them effectively. Saying "abstraction" every time you cannot answer a point is no better than yelling "Snozzwoggler!".

Mages can pick up any weapon, they only have a -5 to it,

Sounds like you are using a more recent edition of D&D as original AD&D did not allow magic-Users to pick up swords and use them no matter what. It was Gygax's attempt to enforce roleplaying archetypes (the staff wielding wizard, the thief who is more swashbuckler/rogue than he is a thug with a giant flamberge.)

or they can devote their time studying them and getting a level in fighter if they are talented enough,

AHA! So you admit AD&D had errors which recent versions of D&D have corrected as best they can.

of course for that they need to abandon their studies.

Which is also debate-ably wonky as heroic fiction is strewn with popular characters who pursued more than one class/career/occupation at the same time. Conan was a warrior-thief most of his adult life. Elric was a warrior-sorceror (and an emperor). Etc. etc.

Clerics have their own kits, they have special powers and limitations.

But I thought you were defending "AD&D" here rather than 3rd ed. D&D?

Yeah, you are better off using the dictionary to look up the word "abstraction".

Tell you what...since I already know the words I use I am going to post the Merriam-Webster dictionary usages of "abstraction" and you can tell me which one applies here and contradicts my points:


Full Definition of ABSTRACTION

1
a : the act or process of abstracting : the state of being abstracted b : an abstract idea or term
2
: absence of mind or preoccupation
3
: abstract quality or character
4
a : an abstract composition or creation in art

Any decent DM can give context to the actions after the rolls were made, while keeping it coherent. "He happened to find cover" "his will is too strong to be affected by your magic" "Your way of doing things is different from their way of doing things, it stands to reason that the check is different".

Irrelevant whether true or not.

I dont even understand your complain here "this system sucks because its not exactly like other system"? "This system sucks because its convoluted and thats bad because its not to my personal preference"? are you fucking stupid mate?

Well you got that much right. You really don't seem to understand a word I am saying (of course I will give you the credit that you DO in fact understand but are letting your anger get the best of you here and would rather feign confusion than admit you were wrong.)...

 

[SkeleTony]

My point was that Conan doesn't fit in AD&D due to the settings (Forgotten Realms, at least) is ruled by Wizards and divinities, not due to the rules and game mechanics. Any lvl 40 Fighter using only melee weapons would have no chance whatsover against a high level Wizard, unless said Wizard was unprepared and/or has just spent all his spells. But now that you mention it, that is actually a weakness of (A)D&D, at least in the computer versions; you never meet anything but fully prepared mages.

I am not arguing that AD&D is properly balanced (quite the contrary). My point is that such characters as Conan and Elric and most others from fantasy fiction cannot be translated to AD&D because of the rules/mechanics, not the settings. If Conan has never appeared in Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk then you cannot cite such as reasons for him not being translated correctly.

 

[JamesDixon]

I am not arguing that AD&D is properly balanced (quite the contrary). My point is that such characters as Conan and Elric and most others from fantasy fiction cannot be translated to AD&D because of the rules/mechanics, not the settings. If Conan has never appeared in Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk then you cannot cite such as reasons for him not being translated correctly.

Except that Conan was translated to AD&D 1E and had his own modules called Conan Unchained and Conan Against Darkness. His stats are as follows:

Fighter 13/Thief 7
Hit Points: 100
Luck Points: 12
STR: 18 (90)
INT: 14
WIS: 10
DEX: 18
CON: 18
CHA: 17
WP: Sword (all types), Bow (all types), Axe (all types), club, mace, and dagger
Secondary Skills: Fletcher, Forester, Gambler, Hunter, Sailor, Trapper
Special: Surprised only on a 1 in 8
Equipment: Leather Armor, Broad Sword, Dagger, and 50 GP

 

[Lhynn]

Swear to god, i understand Excidium II more and more every day

I think there are reasons why even AD&D's designers did not think this was a good idea. For starters, what if the module takes place when Conan is still young but fully adult? In the books Conan is rarely hit with a weapon and never takes serious damage because of his reflexes and combat skills but not because he has absurd number of hit points and especially not because he was wearing rings of protection and carrying magical shields and shit.

What if it takes place in harry potters world? what if it takes place in tron? what if it takes place in marvel cinematic universe? Stop being so god damn retarded.

Yeah..."cuck" is totally sensible and not being spammed by 3 out of 5 teenagers all over the net. Also aren't you the guy who gets freaky when pictures of anime 'My Little Ponies' are around?! If you are not that guy then I apologize for the mistake but man you and your dad look alike.

Uhm, not idea what you are talking about mate.

LOL! WTF is the matter with you junior? The spell system quite literally IS 'fire and forget' and casting times and interupts are irrelevant to this. You memorize a spell, you cast that spell, then you forget that spell (unless of course you (somehow) memorized the spell multiple times(?!).

That is if you ever get to fire it in the first place. Its not a hard concept to grasp mate, you store the formula and the energy, you release it, spell takes effect, say bye to both.

Reminds me of that cartoon where the creationist is scribbling a massive but incomplete formula on a chalkboard then writes in big letters "Then a MIRACLE HAPPENS!". So "it's magic" does it for you eh? Fucking Bronies. How many fantasy books used such a system aside from the silly Jack Vance book and the slew of crap churned out by TSR to make more money off the game and prop up the game? You see THAT is the important question. If you are making a RPG for GENERAL heroic fantasy gaming within you do not use some bizaare magic system that appeared in one book which barely fits the genre and is not generally considered very good and certainly was not popular. If I want to make a game emulating Hong Kong action cinema then I have to look beyond just Sonny Chiba or Jackie Chan (and those two were WAY more popular in HK cinema than Jack Vance ever was in the genre of 'science fantasy'.

Unno, like a shit ton, how many D&D based books have there been? Also not a flaw, just a matter of preference, you dont seem to like it, but i dont know why i or anyone else should care. You simply seem to have taken a wrong turn on the street that lead to gurps. Its not a valid criticism to say "but X fiction rules are not supported by this system" no matter how much you want that to be the case.

Yeah I know what abstraction is and how it plays into game design. I am not sure you do as you are coming off like someone who just learned the word and came away with a silly understanding of such. Why don't you list these attribute modifiers the existed for OD&D/First ed. AD&D then?
May have been a limited one like high wisdom granting a bonus vs. mentalism attacks or some such but my oldfag memory may be on the fritz or something.

Wisdom gave bonus to mind affecting stuff, Constitution gave bonus to the poison save, plus system shock throws that determined whether you survived things like massive damage or big changes in your body.

So you disagree with Gygax and Co. on this point? Because I would have less of a problem with HP if it were defined the way you define it. Of course that does not begin to explain why HP go up with character levels but I guess I can only ask for so much eh?

Its just an interpretation, and HP goes up with levels because you become more experienced at handling incoming damage, more able to see it coming, thus it takes less out of you to do it.

You mean stamina? You are linking stamina with HP? So if my character decides to sprint around a pond 25 times in 2 minutes I will lose a LOT of HP right? And dragging an exhausted person into a temple for the Cleric to heal (because you could not afford to just stay a few minutes at the bar) is somehow differentiated from the guy with the big slash marks across his body in terms of damage they are suffering?

Nope, im not talking about fatigue, just the ability to push your body beyond its limits, eventually you will lose your focus, makes sense even within the system because the biggest heal of them all heals the mind as well.

WTF are you talking about?! All that is relevant here is how much damage occurs and what effect this has on the one taking such damage. In AD&D, according to YOU, the guy running circles around the pond and the guy being blasted in his face with dragon fire are in the same boat. According to Gygax and Co. things are even worse as we cannot even know if any physical damage took place whether a guy has 88 hit points or 1 hit point. But the heal spells will still work on either as long as they have less than max HP.

There are degrees of damage, maybe he took just a small hit, a graze, or got hit only with the blunt of the sword. i have explained why i believe this is so.

Sounds like you are using a more recent edition of D&D as original AD&D did not allow magic-Users to pick up swords and use them no matter what. It was Gygax's attempt to enforce roleplaying archetypes (the staff wielding wizard, the thief who is more swashbuckler/rogue than he is a thug with a giant flamberge.)

Uhm, not really, its clearly listed in weapon proficiencies. Mages that use a weapon they are not proficient with have a -5, clerics if i remember correctly got a -3 and fighters got a -2. What gygax didnt let you do was put points into weapons your class had no business knowing how to handle, because expertise in more advanced weapons and techniques would cut your time with your real profession short.

AHA! So you admit AD&D had errors which recent versions of D&D have corrected as best they can.

Of course i do, who in their right mind would call AD&D perfect? its a flawed gem that despite its numerous flaws makes for a really entertaining playing experience. What is lost in the abstraction is won in narrative and gameplay.

Which is also debate-ably wonky as heroic fiction is strewn with popular characters who pursued more than one class/career/occupation at the same time. Conan was a warrior-thief most of his adult life. Elric was a warrior-sorceror (and an emperor). Etc. etc.

You had kits. Just make one on your own if you didnt like the ones offered to you, it was encouraged. You cant fit every archtype ever devised in fiction into your game. Battle-mages were a thing, swabucklers were basically thief-warriors, wouldnt be strange if conan had its own.

But I thought you were defending "AD&D" here rather than 3rd ed. D&D?

Kits are a 2nd edition deal, 3rd edition has prestige classes. Kits are class variants basically, they are chosen at level one and sacrifice class features for something else, whether it be roleplaying wise or mechanically wise.

Tell you what...since I already know the words I use I am going to post the Merriam-Webster dictionary usages of "abstraction" and you can tell me which one applies here and contradicts my points:

Nice, you could have just pasted the relevant definition tho.

abstract: relating to or involving general ideas or qualities rather than specific people, objects, or actions.

Irrelevant whether true or not

AD&D is a narrative experience, it is the single most relevant aspect of it, so much of DMing is relegated to the DM hands that it cannot be ignored.

Well you got that much right. You really don't seem to understand a word I am saying (of course I will give you the credit that you DO in fact understand but are letting your anger get the best of you here and would rather feign confusion than admit you were wrong.)...

No mate, the problem here is that you are vying for a simulationist approach and a specific system that relates to the fiction you like. As i told you before, this system isnt gurps, D&D has both its own mechanics and its own settings. If you feel like you have to adapt it to whatever fiction you happen to be reading, then do so, but dont criticize the system for not being a faithful representation of something its not supposed to represent.

Except that Conan was translated to AD&D 1E and had his own modules called Conan Unchained and Conan Against Darkness. His stats are as follows:

Fighter 13/Thief 7
Hit Points: 100
Luck Points: 12
STR: 18 (90)
INT: 14
WIS: 10
DEX: 18
CON: 18
CHA: 17
WP: Sword (all types), Bow (all types), Axe (all types), club, mace, and dagger
Secondary Skills: Fletcher, Forester, Gambler, Hunter, Sailor, Trapper
Special: Surprised only on a 1 in 8
Equipment: Leather Armor, Broad Sword, Dagger, and 50 GP

Cool... wait, 50GP? isnt he a king?

 

[Delterius]

Wasn't the memorization fluff changed to 'Wizard prepares spell by casting the majority of the magical formula during rest phase, triggers prepared spell during the day but doesn't really forget it' pretty early in dnd?

 

[JamesDixon]

TSR got the license for the Conan movies and made two modules based off of the movies. This was during Gary Gygax's term at TSR before being pushed out. Now Gary did write up Conan in Dragon #36. I have only an image of what the basics of Conan as seen by Gary but nothing in depth.

He also makes an appearance in OD&D's Supplement IV Gods, Demi-Gods, & Heroes. In that he's a level 15 Fighter and 9th Level Thief as per Greyhawk supplement.

 

[Lhynn]

Wasn't the memorization fluff changed to 'Wizard prepares spell by casting the majority of the magical formula during rest phase, triggers prepared spell during the day but doesn't really forget it' pretty early in dnd?

He wouldnt need the book if that was the case.

 

[Excidium II]

Swear to god, i understand Excidium II more and more every day

 

[Delterius]

He wouldnt need the book if that was the case.

Well, the book is there for storing the formula and to retain lore. Its just that the forget part of firing the spell doesn't really apply if what wizards do instead is called Preparation, as opposed to Memorization. In fact, I think I read this here on the Codex years ago.