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Is NWN2 worth playing?

Delterius

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Oh yes, criticizing the footwork of a fight is very disingenious. When have you ever seen positioning factor into combat? How could I do that when I claimed that in my opinion what tarnishes NwN is its controls? Woe is thee, Incendiary Device. Woe is thee.
 

Delterius

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This is how I envision an encounter against two powerful dragons: my automaton '''party members''' behave with the grace of zombies while I stand still for a minute or so pelting them with colored magical arrows. Epic, good combat in the making right there.

Overwhelming, I know.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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This is how I envision an encounter against two powerful dragons: my automaton '''party members''' behave with the grace of zombies

One of them is an automaton zombie you prick, it's a summons. The other is a melee character, what do you want it to do? Cast light and hide in a box?

while I stand still for a minute or so pelting them with colored magical arrows.

Oh really, so you missed the buffing, healing and recasting of summons at the crucial moments, good, glad you're willing to show just how disingenuous you are.

Epic, good combat in the making right there

Overwhelming, I know.

Overwhelming? Who the fuck said it was overwhelming? I sure didn't. I said it was competent. something you are not...
 

Delterius

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One of them is an automaton zombie you prick, it's a summons.
Summons can do more than move towards a target and auto attack. In Neverwinter Nights you better hope for less.
The other is a melee character, what do you want it to do? Cast light and hide in a box?
Melee characters can also do more than move towards a target and auto attack. In Neverwinter Nights you should lower your expectations.
Oh really, so you missed the buffing, healing and recasting of summons at the crucial moments, good, glad you're willing to show just how disingenuous you are.
Did that in Dragon Age: Inquisition too. Didn't make for a very interesting game either.
I said it was competent.
I think the combat is bad. You think its competent. Fair enough. A game where combat is good... enough is just the sort of game where party members don't need to be controlled at all. Its a fine line to disagree on, I'd say.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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One of them is an automaton zombie you prick, it's a summons.
Summons can do more than move towards a target and auto attack. In Neverwinter Nights you better hope for less.
The other is a melee character, what do you want it to do? Cast light and hide in a box?
Melee characters can also do more than move towards a target and auto attack. In Neverwinter Nights you lower your expectations.
Oh really, so you missed the buffing, healing and recasting of summons at the crucial moments, good, glad you're willing to show just how disingenuous you are.
Did that in Dragon Age: Inquisition too. Didn't make for a very interesting game either.
I said it was competent.
I think the combat is bad. You think its competent. Fair enough. With combat that is good... enough is just the sort of game where party members don't need to be controlled at all. Its a fine line to disagree on.

Maximum retardation here.

We've already established in my first reply to you that the primary issue with NWN combat is the lack of control of party characters.

In case you hadn't noticed, we'd moved onto a discussion about combat mechanics and how the combat mechanics themselves are fine. If you were controlling a melee character then they'd have more actions, duh.

Aside from hyperbolic crap, what was actually wrong with NWN mechanics? You know, without repeating AW BUT I CAN'T CONTROL MY COMPANIONS 3 billion times to any other point anyone else makes?

Can you do that?
 

Delterius

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We've already established in my first reply to you that the primary issue with NWN combat is the lack of control of party characters.
Actually, no. I said that my problem with NwN combat is that its controls are much less precise than that of the IE games. Or those of some other RTwP RPGs that came out since. The way characters walk and battle lines are drawn, when compared to something so crisp as BG/IWD or even PoE seriously feels like building a sand castle without water. Or a castle of cards while suffering of Parkinsons.
In case you hadn't noticed, we'd moved onto a discussion about combat mechanics and how the combat mechanics themselves are fine. If you were controlling a melee character then they'd have more actions, duh.
Actually no. You'd have more options but you'd be fain to use them.

Games have to be balanced for party play, simply adding the option to control 4 or more characters at once doesn't make for very good combat. Both the Dragon Age and the Neverwinter Nights series are good examples of that.

Dragon Age: Origins was a party based game from the start of its development. Its ruleset wasn't very good and its controls included glitches where characters would sometimes phase through terrain: collision was never accounted for since the battle line was meant to be drawn via threat mechanics. Yet it played well enough for a party game. You always feel as though you're in control of the situation and there were incentives to micro manage everything at once.

Dragon Age 2 on the other hand attempted to be a much faster paced game than its predecessor. It kept its 4 member party make up but supercharged animations and attacks so much that it became counter productive to micromanage everyone's actions between rounds. Instead you're better off leaving the AI to spam abilities willy nilly and making use of the game's combo system by only controlling the MC.

Dragon Age: Inquisition rolled things back a bit but didn't care to build up on the Ruleset to make for more interesting party play. I don't think even DA:O's small list of spell combinations came back. Its a half hearted attempt to create a strange Action/or/CRPG hybrid a la Arcanum's combat switch that couldn't succeed.

Now, I'd argue that Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2 went through a different history that shows the same kind of lack of forethought that BioWare suffered of with Dragon Age.

You can see even in the marketing for the first NwN that the ideal scenario was one where a DM and a group of friends all played together in a virtual campaign, each player controlling their individual characters. But of course, it had to ship with something that showed the game's potential as a CRPG since it was released on the heels of the IE games. Hence the OC.

Eventually it seems both of these playstyles branched into the PWs and official expansions/modules. What is interesting about the latter is that it seems a different focus when compared to the OC: you have less battles and way more interactions via exploration and dialogue.

This is due to a combat system where its a relief that the average combat experience is as mediocre as you've shown us. Your character stands there, with his braindead allies, throwing damage spells and healbotting to their heart's content. There's no footwork. There's no AI involved. But there's a silver lining: I wouldn't want to control a small company of adventurers in NwN's engine. Which is why NwN2 is so much worse. The living hell of AoOs slapped party control in an engine that was never good for it.
Aside from hyperbolic crap, what was actually wrong with NWN mechanics?
Well, in my opinion the controls of the NwN series are much less precise than those of the IE games.
You know, without repeating AW BUT I CAN'T CONTROL MY COMPANIONS 3 billion times to any other point anyone else makes?
Actually what I said up there is that summons and party members aren't much more than attack automatons. And that positioning and footwork don't seem to factor into NwN battles very much. In my opinion that isn't very good. Nor competent. If you think that's ok, that's fine. But not even I think that's the real problem. They are more like symptoms.

You see, the controls of the NwN series are so much less precise than those of other RTwP games that you're often relieved that the games are balanced for single character control. Which is why NwN1 isn't as bad as NwN2's living hell of AoOs.

Both games have a solid foundation of an easy to use creation kit and their Ruleset, coupled with controls that just aren't very good. This fits into why people seem to hate the combat filled OCs so much and love the Story/C&C/Exploration fests that modules and official expansions tended to be.

I like to compare these games to the WC3 World Edit. Both games spawned a large creative community of asset creators, mappers and writers whose work is to be cherished. But while I wouldn't play a plain arena module for NwN (or its OC), I sure as hell would play plain vanilla WC3. Even against the computer.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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We've already established in my first reply to you that the primary issue with NWN combat is the lack of control of party characters.
Actually, no. I said that my problem with NwN combat is that its controls are much less precise than that of the IE games. Your character stands there, with his braindead allies, throwing damage spells and healbotting to their heart's content. There's no footwork. There's no AI involved. Well, in my opinion the controls of the NwN series are much less precise than those of the IE games. Actually what I said up there is that summons and party members aren't much more than attack automatons. And that positioning and footwork don't seem to factor into NwN battles very much. In my opinion that isn't very good. Nor competent. If you think that's ok, that's fine. But not even I think that's the real problem. They are more like symptoms. You see, the controls of the NwN series are so much less precise than those of other RTwP games that you're often relieved that the games are balanced for single character control. Which is why NwN1 isn't as bad as NwN2's living hell of AoOs.

I've edited out all your needless padding and bullshit to stick to the point in hand.

To which, oh dear, what a shame, my video shows excellent use of footwork that works perfectly. Well damn.

And as for the mechanics of any RPG combat, yes you can make it sound dumb by saying "you just do this, you just do that", but that's just hyperbole. If you're complaining about a cleric buffing, healing and firing 'magic arrows' and casting summons while running about the battlefield then I guess you're just a bit mental really.
 

Delterius

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but that's just hyperbole
Describing what happened in your combat video is hyperbole? Oh wow.
And as for the mechanics of any RPG combat, yes you can make it sound dumb
Only dumb things sound dumb when described for what they are.
To which, oh dear, what a shame, my video shows excellent use of footwork that works perfectly.
Standing still for a minute. Walking forward and back once. Amazing dance right there, bravo. 10/10. Best encounter ever beheld by my mortal eyes.
running about the battlefield
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
I'm ignoring most of your post and pretending my video is awesome because I really like this game so much please don't criticize one of its aspects while praising others, I'm that much of a
fanboy.png
.
Gotcha.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Standing still for a minute. Walking forward and back once. Amazing dance right there, bravo. 10/10. Best encounter ever beheld by my mortal eyes.

It was factually twice.

I'm sure this wont effect your hyperbole train, but it's an interesting point of fact nonetheless. The fact being you're an imbecile.

What exactly did your cleric do in other RPGs if they weren't buffing, healing and firing 'magic arrows' and casting summons while running about the battlefield?

[not that I remember them running about much in IE games either...]
 
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Harry Easter

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The Original Games story is better, thab people say. It start's generic, but there is always something new happening and the plot get's more complex over time. But the ending is very misleading, so plan to import your character to the Addon. Mask of the Betrayer has one of the best stories I've ever played (it's Planescape Torment with real gameplay), but it can be really hard, if you don't get how the soul-eater mechanic works.

But yeah, if you can work with a shitty camera and live with the graphics, it's still worth playing.
 

Delterius

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running about the battlefield?
That you love throwing this around just shows how clueless you are.

Your video: Your character runs away from the mobs as his braindead friends surge forward. Then he stands still for 1 minute and a half casting spells. Then he walked forward and backward once. Then he stood for another 30 seconds or so.

This is mid level WoW tier gameplay we're talking about. Oh, my mistake. You control your summons in WoW. But with Neverwinter Nights, always, always expect less. And less. And less.

This isn't about 'running around the battlefield'. Which doesn't happen. At all. Only game where a five step forward is the pinnacle of mobility is called Neverwinter Nights.

Neither does the term apply as an ideal. We aren't talking about an Action RPG, nor about an RTS. This is about wether positioning and footwork matter a lot in the game. Baldur's Gate is one of many CRPGs balanced for party play, in which all of 6 characters must position themselves in relation to the enemy. They don't necessarily 'run around the battlefield'. But they don't just stand there letting auto summons do all the heavy lifting either.

Unless you think the Wand of Monster Summoning was the highest form of combat. Which would explain a lot.

The simple truth is that most encounters in NwN boils down to what we've seen in your video. Especially if you play a spellcasting class. Either your automaton '''party members''' and summons hold the line or they don't.

Compare that to the Encounter Design of the IE games and some of the monsters in PoE's beastiary. Those can and do subvert the battle line very often. Your party can be forced to reposition itself constantly, either because enemies teleport around or the battle line is not so easily drawn. In Neverwinter Night's I'd rather the game didn't simply because the controls suck that much.

But hey don't you worry,

I'm ignoring most of your post and pretending my video is awesome because I really like this game so much please don't criticize one of its aspects while praising others, I'm that much of a
fanboy.png
.
We already got it.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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running about the battlefield?
That you love throwing this around just shows how clueless you are.

Your video: Your character runs away from the mobs as his braindead friends surge forward. Then he stands still for 1 minute and a half casting spells. Then he walked forward and backward once. Then he stood for another 30 seconds or so.

This is mid level WoW tier gameplay we're talking about. Oh, my mistake. You control your summons in WoW. But with Neverwinter Nights, always, always expect less. And less. And less.

This isn't about 'running around the battlefield'. Which doesn't happen. At all. Only game where a five step forward is the pinnacle of mobility is called Neverwinter Nights.

Neither does the term apply as an ideal. We aren't talking about an Action RPG, nor about an RTS. This is about wether positioning and footwork matter a lot in the game. Baldur's Gate is one of many CRPGs balanced for party play, in which all of 6 characters must position themselves in relation to the enemy. They don't necessarily 'run around the battlefield'. But they don't just stand there letting auto summons do all the heavy lifting either.

Unless you think the Wand of Monster Summoning was the highest form of combat. Which would explain a lot.

The simple truth is that most encounters in NwN boils down to what we've seen in your video. Especially if you play a spellcasting class. Either your automaton '''party members''' and summons hold the line or they don't.

Compare that to the Encounter Design of the IE games and some of the monsters in PoE's beastiary. Those can and do subvert the battle line very often. Your party can be forced to reposition itself constantly, either because enemies teleport around or the battle line is not so easily drawn. In Neverwinter Night's I'd rather the game didn't simply because the controls suck that much.

But hey don't you worry,

I'm ignoring most of your post and pretending my video is awesome because I really like this game so much please don't criticize one of its aspects while praising others, I'm that much of a
fanboy.png
.
We already got it.

And there you go, bleating on about party control again...
 

laclongquan

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I am not entirely sure what the fuck you guys are arguing about so let me pour more fuel into the flame.

Footwork in Neverwinter Nights 2 Original Campaign.

Due to the way I do party (max size 6, like a DnD boss), most of the fights are over quickly. Not because it's easy (hardest diff take care of that) but because 6 full figure in high rez splendor bring my graphic to ground. So I give command, pay very careful attention to the log, and very periodically pause the battle to look at numerous view (2-3 pause per turn, if that)

Thus in the dragon fights late game, I do notice there's footwork involved. Only those fights are long enough to make me notice it. But if you play party of 3, the symtomp will show earlier.

The two dragon in the valley, at the Heart. I need to hold one back, and beat the other quickly before I return to it. So it's like a dance. The positioning between characters matter because of in-battle buffings, and/or direct spell attacks. And the timing also very much matters. I am not being able to replicate precise steps, mostly because there's random number god involved.

No, I am not minmaxing, or grinding to craft, or any powergaming tactics. Hell, my girls wear the minimum they have to, not the maximum I am able to. So the party in term of equipment is much suboptimal.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Lovely, a third layer of miscommunication. We were talking about NWN1, because of something someone said on page 1.
 

Quillon

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I played this many times over the years but it never occurred to me that there might be mods for it :P Just in case: Are there essential mods for optimal experience? Does nexus contain all essential stuff? Is there an essential nwn2 mods listing anywhere around? Essentially essentialating essentialation essentialated? Do mods work with platinum edition off of steam?
 
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NWN2 OC is actually astonishing for how tedious and drawn out it is. It's like if you took all the side content in BG1 and 2 and threw it into a single linear main quest storyline where you are are forced to make abrupt detours to irrelevant places constantly for contrived reasons.
 

laclongquan

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:tilt head:

Maybe the first time I run through NWN2OC it feel like tedious and long pace.

But the most recent run I did it feel way normal. Maybe it thanks to the numerous minigame I keep running at the same time that I was pretty busy: craft weapons, gather the NPCs for the Keep, balance the various merchant and my loots to get that optimum money to invest in Keep and keep l oss down...

Or maybe it because I do it with a body replacer and various lingerie mods so I dont feel bored.

I just dont know.
 

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