Is WotC D&D Really D&D?

[Alex]

"If we sacrifice a child to our god every Autumn, we will bring good fortune and harvest to the village through the winter months."

There, you now have reason beyond these guys are dickheads for the sake of.

Yeah, sacrificing a child for material wealth is totally not the textbook example of "evil behaviour"...

...

When did this thread turn political?

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

Yeah, sacrificing a child for material wealth is totally not the textbook example of "evil behaviour"...

The more you try to painstakingly justify and grey area this shit the more you go into the current day where not every Drow is evil.

 

[Dorateen]

JamesDixon did you ever read the dramatized biography of Gary Gygax, "Empire of Imagination"? I found it an insightful, as well as an entertaining read.

 

[JamesDixon]

JamesDixon did you ever read the dramatized biography of Gary Gygax, "Empire of Imagination"? I found it an insightful, as well as an entertaining read.

I certainly didn't read it because I didn't know it existed. I'll take a look into it.

 

[dacencora]

Yeah, sacrificing a child for material wealth is totally not the textbook example of "evil behaviour"...

The more you try to painstakingly justify and grey area this shit the more you go into the current day where not every Drow is evil.

So I take it you're not a fan of Eberron?

 

[mediocrepoet]

Yeah, sacrificing a child for material wealth is totally not the textbook example of "evil behaviour"...

The more you try to painstakingly justify and grey area this shit the more you go into the current day where not every Drow is evil.

So I take it you're not a fan of Eberron?

Wasn't directed at me, but what I heard of Eberron never hooked me, so I didn't look very closely at it. Is that part of its deal? Morally grey D&D?

 

[dacencora]

Yeah, sacrificing a child for material wealth is totally not the textbook example of "evil behaviour"...

The more you try to painstakingly justify and grey area this shit the more you go into the current day where not every Drow is evil.

So I take it you're not a fan of Eberron?

Wasn't directed at me, but what I heard of Eberron never hooked me, so I didn't look very closely at it. Is that part of its deal? Morally grey D&D?

Ehhh, I don’t know a lot about Eberron but I know that in Eberron, not all Drow are evil. It’s kind of weird.

Also they worship a giant scorpion instead of Lolth.

 

[JamesDixon]

Yeah, sacrificing a child for material wealth is totally not the textbook example of "evil behaviour"...

The more you try to painstakingly justify and grey area this shit the more you go into the current day where not every Drow is evil.

So I take it you're not a fan of Eberron?

Wasn't directed at me, but what I heard of Eberron never hooked me, so I didn't look very closely at it. Is that part of its deal? Morally grey D&D?

Ehhh, I don’t know a lot about Eberron but I know that in Eberron, not all Drow are evil. It’s kind of weird.

Also they worship a giant scorpion instead of Lolth.

Forgotten Realms did it first in AD&D 2E with The Drow of the Underdark published in 1991. They have Eilistraee, Ghaunadaur, Lolth, and Vhaeraun as gods.

 

[dacencora]

Yeah, sacrificing a child for material wealth is totally not the textbook example of "evil behaviour"...

The more you try to painstakingly justify and grey area this shit the more you go into the current day where not every Drow is evil.

So I take it you're not a fan of Eberron?

Wasn't directed at me, but what I heard of Eberron never hooked me, so I didn't look very closely at it. Is that part of its deal? Morally grey D&D?

Ehhh, I don’t know a lot about Eberron but I know that in Eberron, not all Drow are evil. It’s kind of weird.

Also they worship a giant scorpion instead of Lolth.

Forgotten Realms did it first in AD&D 2E with The Drow of the Underdark published in 1991. They have Eilistraee, Ghaunadaur, Lolth, and Vhaeraun as gods.

Notably, there is no Lolth in Eberron, as far as I know.

I haven’t much experience in any of the D&D settings, but I tend to prefer Forgotten Realms. Greyhawk seems cool, especially since it’s Gygax’s setting, but I haven’t played many video games in that setting (Keep on the Borderlands in a NWN PW and in DDO is probably the extent)

 

[JamesDixon]

Yeah, sacrificing a child for material wealth is totally not the textbook example of "evil behaviour"...

The more you try to painstakingly justify and grey area this shit the more you go into the current day where not every Drow is evil.

So I take it you're not a fan of Eberron?

Wasn't directed at me, but what I heard of Eberron never hooked me, so I didn't look very closely at it. Is that part of its deal? Morally grey D&D?

Ehhh, I don’t know a lot about Eberron but I know that in Eberron, not all Drow are evil. It’s kind of weird.

Also they worship a giant scorpion instead of Lolth.

Forgotten Realms did it first in AD&D 2E with The Drow of the Underdark published in 1991. They have Eilistraee, Ghaunadaur, Lolth, and Vhaeraun as gods.

Notably, there is no Lolth in Eberron, as far as I know.

I haven’t much experience in any of the D&D settings, but I tend to prefer Forgotten Realms. Greyhawk seems cool, especially since it’s Gygax’s setting, but I haven’t played many video games in that setting (Keep on the Borderlands in a NWN PW and in DDO is probably the extent)

My comment was more along the lines of disputing that good Drow are a recent thing. They're not as it's been 30 years since they were first introduced.

 

[mediocrepoet]

My comment was more along the lines of disputing that good Drow are a recent thing. They're not as it's been 30 years since they were first introduced.

My impression is that they were extremely rare and persecuted though.

 

[JamesDixon]

My comment was more along the lines of disputing that good Drow are a recent thing. They're not as it's been 30 years since they were first introduced.

My impression is that they were extremely rare and persecuted though.

I'll see you on Steam and let you read it yourself.

 

[Morblot]

JamesDixon did you ever read the dramatized biography of Gary Gygax, "Empire of Imagination"? I found it an insightful, as well as an entertaining read.

Seconding this recommendation. Just remember, parts of it are made up by the author, but that fits the theme.

edit: so, in other words, it's dramatized, just as Dorateen said. How did I miss that :D

 

[deuxhero]

Yeah, sacrificing a child for material wealth is totally not the textbook example of "evil behaviour"...

The more you try to painstakingly justify and grey area this shit the more you go into the current day where not every Drow is evil.

So I take it you're not a fan of Eberron?

Wasn't directed at me, but what I heard of Eberron never hooked me, so I didn't look very closely at it. Is that part of its deal? Morally grey D&D?

Eberron isn't so much morally grey as it is a setting where every faction of significance can be used as a villain without it being out of character (encourage by its lack of continuity meaning there's no baggage from having used X as a villain before). It definitely supports moral grayness if you want it to, but there's zero difficulty having straight up heroics in it (there's many factions that are unambiguously evil) and almost all official modules are such.

Eberron Drow are the former slaves of the giant empire who outlived the destruction of their masters. Now they squat in abandoned ruins and claim ownership of the property of their former masters. Several sub-sets are pretty clearly evil, though many can be reasonable nomads and either way the Drow detailed in setting books are explicitly representative of only a relatively small part of the continent they're from and the DM is encouraged to come up with their own stuff for areas further in-land.

 

[Morblot]

Don't know about you guys but Eberron is starting to sound pretty interesting...

 

[Alex]

Don't know about you guys but Eberron is starting to sound pretty interesting...

Eberron always looked pretty "meh" to me, but that is kinda true of everything 3e. I am not even sure why; or if I am being objective. But what is seems to me is that the shift in priorities in 3e really affected setting design as well as adventure design and rules. In 2e (which for me was the best "era") there was a real focus on making the settings a place that looked real. There were supplements for things that didn't matter so much for adventurers, but helped flesh out the worlds. Each setting had some focus on it, at least for a while. In 3e, this shifted away from "realism" and the settings seemed to become more like a backdrop for the adventures only.

 

[deuxhero]

Don't know about you guys but Eberron is starting to sound pretty interesting...

Eberron always looked pretty "meh" to me, but that is kinda true of everything 3e. I am not even sure why; or if I am being objective. But what is seems to me is that the shift in priorities in 3e really affected setting design as well as adventure design and rules. In 2e (which for me was the best "era") there was a real focus on making the settings a place that looked real. There were supplements for things that didn't matter so much for adventurers, but helped flesh out the worlds. Each setting had some focus on it, at least for a while. In 3e, this shifted away from "realism" and the settings seemed to become more like a backdrop for the adventures only.

What?

Dragonmarked is literally how the dozen largest companies and most powerful families operate. Faiths of Eberron is, as the name implies, how religion operates and covers the most basic levels (holidays, how marriages are done). Five Nations covers the government of the main national factions. Forge of War is the history of a century long war. The rest of the books are all centered on some civilization (city of Sharn, city of Stormreach, and three continents) with plenty of information that isn't focused on adventurers. Races of Eberron deals with racial minorities and their societies. Magic of Eberron is the most player focused and it still talks about the "mundane" side of the setting.

It's Forgotten Realms that has that problem.

Don't know about you guys but Eberron is starting to sound pretty interesting...

It is..

 

[rusty_shackleford]

 

[JamesDixon]

Well it's settled. WotC fantasy rpgs are not D&D. They're atrocious abominations that must be purged.

 

[Old One]

TSR was really a mess in the few years prior to WotC acquiring D&D, so at the time I was hopeful there would be improvement, and at first it seemed like that might happen. I don't necessarily have anything against d20 as a system, even though I don't think it's really D&D. It soon became apparent however that WotC, among many other horrific faults, were worse money-grubbing whores than late-TSR, and I've never seen anything that persuades me I'm wrong about that.

One of their biggest cash cows, for example, is "prestige classes." New prestige classes everybody wants but nobody needs are the hooks they use to sell products nobody needs.

Once I realized who WotC were and what they were doing I washed my hands of them for good. Frankly I'd rather make up my own system than buy their crap.

 

[JamesDixon]

TSR was really a mess in the few years prior to WotC acquiring D&D, so at the time I was hopeful there would be improvement, and at first it seemed like that might happen. I don't necessarily have anything against d20 as a system, even though I don't think it's really D&D. It soon became apparent however that WotC, among many other horrific faults, were worse money-grubbing whores than late-TSR, and I've never seen anything that persuades me I'm wrong about that.

One of their biggest cash cows, for example, is "prestige classes." New prestige classes everybody wants but nobody needs are the hooks they use to sell products nobody needs.

Once I realized who WotC were and what they were doing I washed my hands of them for good. Frankly I'd rather make up my own system than buy their crap.

I can understand you wanting to make your own system. That's precisely what JarlFrank and I are doing to avoid legal troubles when it comes to Malignost.

 

[Morblot]

WotC, among many other horrific faults, were worse money-grubbing whores than late-TSR

I think 3E started with some pretty good supplements, but yes, what you're saying is essentially true. It became really apparent in the dying days of the 3.5 era when their supplement quality fell through the floor. Poor fluff, poor ideas, cheap art... I think the font may have also been larger? The only one of those I still have around is the Planar Handbook, which is total fucking shit from start to end and a massive disappointment in comparison to the much earlier 3E Manual of the Planes, which is one of my favorite RPG books of any stripe.

Then again, the whole 3.5 ed even existing proves your point quite beautifully, I think. :D Oh well, at least it made rangers not suck...

 

[JamesDixon]

WotC, among many other horrific faults, were worse money-grubbing whores than late-TSR

I think 3E started with some pretty good supplements, but yes, what you're saying is essentially true. It became really apparent in the dying days of the 3.5 era when their supplement quality fell through the floor. Poor fluff, poor ideas, cheap art... I think the font may have also been larger? The only one of those I still have around is the Planar Handbook, which is total fucking shit from start to end and a massive disappointment in comparison to the much earlier 3E Manual of the Planes, which is one of my favorite RPG books of any stripe.

Then again, the whole 3.5 ed even existing proves your point quite beautifully, I think. :D Oh well, at least it made rangers not suck...

Rangers stopped sucking in AD&D 2E and the release of The Complete Ranger's Handbook.

 

[Old One]

Then again, the whole 3.5 ed even existing proves your point quite beautifully, I think.

I remember I bought a 3.0 PH and DMG, and about a month later 3.5 was announced. Fool me once...

 

[Calthaer]

Don't know about you guys but Eberron is starting to sound pretty interesting...

It is..

I've been running a campaign in Eberron over the pandemic, and it is pretty great. The world is super-imaginative and Keith Baker keeps adding little tidbits on his blog all the time on all sorts of random topics. It's a full remix of everything in D&D, and it's all put together in a cohesive whole so that it makes sense.

Also, making siege-engine style magic wands out of a whole tree is really cool - the kind of thing that makes you think...why hasn't anyone done this before? The lightning rail, airships, hobbits halflings riding dinosaurs - Eberron is cool.

We need an RPG as good as Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights set in Eberron.