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Game News J.E. Sawyer: Obsidian's Five Hard Lessons Of RPG Design

Regdar

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Jaesun said:
Mechanical chaos is frustrating. RPGs often rely on random number generators, "in part because that is the only way to simulate things in a tabletop environment." However, he said, "In some cases, where you can reload, mechanical chaos is pointless." It also can be frustrating either way.

The answer would be either to install some kind of despotic saving mechanism, which would somehow prevent players from quickloading after the party wizard failed to scribe Melf's Acid Arrow into his spellbook, or bend the rules a little bit to change the DC from 15+ spell level to something like 20+ (2*spell level) and allow a take 20 on Spellcraft checks made out of combat. Even better if you add an option in the menu for it, since players like me still like to play with randomized HP on level up and don't mind wasting a feat on Skill Focus (Spellcraft).

What you can perceive is the most important thing</strong>. Games "often focus on statistics, but we often can't perceive the effects in games." Small stat upgrades don't mean anything to players at all when they can't see the effect.

This is why full disclosure of formulas used to calculate stuff in the game is necessary. Make it an "enhanced tooltip" option in the menu, so the casuals don't freak out. Those people don't care for meaning in their stat investments anyway, as long as there's a "recommended" option...

Strategic failures are the biggest disappointing failures for players</strong>. When building a character or a party, "you're making long-term decisions," said Sawyer, "but many RPGs effectively punish you for making bad choices."

So what's wrong with writing detailed tooltips? A balanced party needs this and that, this character needs stats X and Y, etc. If it's a new system, "recommended" button can give players a feeling for which stats to aim for, and then they can modify characters (adding conversation skills otherwise not supplied by "recommended") to their liking. Furthermore, a lot, if not most, RPG players start over with a more optimized party at some point in the game. The new party can prove unbalanced as it moves further than the previous one, and the player can choose to restart again.

Anticipating common mistakes in party creation and preventing them is a much better alternative to making up for those mistakes by streamlining the game.
 

almondblight

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DarkUnderlord said:
Gambling was the free money skill. It allowed you to buy pretty much all the decent weapons a lot earlier than you otherwise would be able to, which made things easier. Also useful if you're going Big Guns and need lots of ammo. Otherwise you had to face all those random encounters, kill everything and go through the kill / loot / sell process. Barter was semi-useful along the same lines but less so. Outdoorsman allows you to avoid random encounters which is fairly useful if you're a non-combat character. So sure, if you're running through and shooting everything than they're useless but that's the point. If you're NOT running through shooting everything, they become useful. It's that whole "role-playing" thing.

And this is what, Fallout or some random game you made up in your head? I NEVER heard anyone say that outdoorsman was useful, or that the random encounters were two difficult. I've never heard of anyone having money problems. The fact is the only time I ever found myself short on ammunition was very early in the game, and the only time I found myself pinched for caps was...eh...never? Keep in mind I wasn't running through random encounters for loot or trying at all. I just never found it an issue.

I suppose it could have happened if say...the Glow and the Gun Runners and the Mutant Patrols didn't give you more ammo than you could handle, but again, we're talking about Fallout, not a theoretical game you made up in your head.


DarkUnderlord said:
Yes, mostly useless save for a way to complete the game without combat and get the most powerful armour in the game that makes you virtually immune to everything.

Immune to everything? Mutants can (and do) one hit kill you even with power armor. It gives you a lot more defensive capability, granted, but how useful is it if you're not a fighter? You're not going to want the enemy take more than one hit at you (less, you should be hiding from them) if you're not going to fight them.


DarkUnderlord said:
Yes, mostly useless. That's like saying your Plasma Rifle and Energy Weapons skill is mostly useless because you really only need to pull it out for those few times you face the really tough enemies - every other time you just make do with the Sniper Rifle.

I'm saying it's mostly useless because there are about only three (I think...?) places in the whole game where it's useful at all (hence the mostly, not completely), and of those places, you only really need the skill to be around 1/3 leveled up (less with tools), and even if you didn't meet that threshold, the game would give you books to up your repair skill. And you could get the power armor other ways if you wanted it, and could go throw the red force fields if you wanted (really, all you would need would be some stimpacks). So that's uhhh.....a skill that us mostly useless in leveling up past 1/3 (I think...at least less than half) of the way, since points added above that are a waste, it's only useful in 3 situations, two of which give you manuals that raise your skill if it's below that low threshold, and in two of those situations, even if you refuse to read the manuals and raise your skill, you can still get the same results.

And that's compared to energy weapons where you're using it all the time, every point up until 150 or 175 (I think...) is useful, and here's no way you can possibly raise it up that high without adding skill points?


DarkUnderlord said:
It's pretty good for being able to take the hits as a non-combat character (who would have low strength and endurance and thus less HP). And if you are a combat character and you really want that awesome armour, you had to no choice but to get repair.

No, you could do that rescue quest and get it too. And like I said, with tools and the books you don't really have to put almost any investment into the skill. If you tagged repair, it would be a waste, in all honesty.

DarkUnderlord said:
It's true that books ruined most of the skills.

The problem with them was that they were given to you when you only needed a very low repair skill, along with tools, and that these were the ONLY times repair was useful. It's almost like the developers were trying to say to you "don't worry if you didn't put any points in this skill, you didn't really need to." Well, actually, they were saying that. I usually kept about 20 extra points around, and threw an extra 10 or 15 in repair when I got to the glow or the power armor. When that's all that's needed to get the full benefits of the skill, there's something wrong.


DarkUnderlord said:
That goes back to Sawyer's point about save / reload and arbitrary random numbers.

Yeah. Except, in Fallout, you didn't need to reload! Just do it again and again until it works (but I usually just went through the red fields, because by that time you have so many stims going through them is meaningless).

DarkUnderlord said:
Sneak is good "if you want to play that way" which given this is an RPG, again, is the whole point. Outdoorsman, Lockpicking and Stealing all fall into the same box. 9 / 10.

Stealth can be useful because it can open up another playing style. I've never heard anyone say that outdoorsman or stealing was useful, not even for a certain play style. I mean, really. Have you ever heard anyone say "well, my stealth character is pretty good, but I forgot to raise outdoorsman!" ? You'd have to run from a few less random encounters, I guess. Again, I've NEVER heard anyone say that the random encounters were keeping them from progressing.

As for stealing...it doesn't do much besides give you more stuff, no? As I said before, you shouldn't be hurting for any stuff save for the very beginning of the game. If you are a non-combat character, you need even less.

DarkUnderlord said:
Science gives us a way to end the game with a lower speech skill and opens up an entire storyline.

And that's pretty much all it does, no? I mean, how many science checks are there in the game, two? Three? Like repair, do you get anything from raising the skill over 100?

DarkUnderlord said:
Repair gives you the best Armour in the game which is useful whether you're combat or non-combat. 11 / 12

Which you can get other ways and only needs a low level of repair.

DarkUnderlord said:
Speech you accept is necessary. Unless of course you go low INT because you want to play that way. 12 / 13

Yeah, not necessary but very useful.

DarkUnderlord said:
Gambling I'd argue is semi-useful again "if you want to play that way" as it is a nice money skill for non-combat characters. 13 / 14

Which they'll then spend on all those non-combat things to buy? Again, this isn't a theoretical game we're talking about, it's Fallout. Non-combat characters will have plenty of excess cash from not needing to buy any weapons, and even more since they can sell all the stuff they find.

DarkUnderlord said:
That leaves First Aid and Doctor, both of which I accept are completely useless (there are so many Stimpaks in Fallout it's not like health-care is an actual issue). Again this is a case of "adding in something to make it easy for the fighter". The best way around that would be to remove Stimpaks but then that would mean re-balancing the entire combat system. 13 / 16.

Re-balance? It was balanced to begin with?

DarkUnderlord said:
So out of 18 skills, 13 of them have a significant use at some point in the game. Enough that you certainly want to consider grabbing them, depending on how you intend to play. That compares with what, games where the skills let you cast Fire spells vs Water spells? And I agree with the point about books. .

Here's my count:

Combat skills: All can be useful, except for throwing. But, hell, since throwing will even be more useful in some of these situations than the skills below, so I'll just but it in the "mostly useless" category. 5 and 1.

First Aid/Doctor: useless, no explanation necessary. 2 useless

Sneak: I never played a stealth character, so I don't know if stealthboy makes this redundant or not. But, I'll be generous and say it's useful. one

Steal: Useless. You get enough stuff in Fallout just going through the game.

Lockpick: Mostly useless. The lockpicks and re-tries will be enough when you need it. I suppose it helps with that one thief quest?

Traps: Useless. I have a hard time even remembering traps in the game.

Science and Repair: Mostly useless. There are only a few times in the game you ever encounter these skillchecks, and when they are their, the checks are low and books (science lessons) are given to you to raise them. I'll usually throw in a few points extra when I get to that point, and then never raise them again (actually, I usually ignore science, but...eh...).

Speech: Of course.

Barter/Gambling: Again, did anyone run out of money in Fallout?

Outdoors: ...or needed something to stop all the random encounters?

So by my count thats:
Useful: 7
Almost Useless: 4
Useless: 7


DarkUnderlord said:
The solution is to design the game so that they're useful. Make traps deadly, insta-kill devices and players will either get traps or avoid those areas that are trapped (which in a well designed game, will mean missing out on crucial story clues or useful equipment). Put that super-cool car into your post-apocalyptic environment for sure, but set it up so that only a repairman can get it and all of a sudden there's a damn good reason for that skill. Make hacking the supercomputer and launching the nuclear missile reliant on the science skill and suddenly, weak science characters can wreak havoc in their own unique way.

I agree the solution is about designing the game well, but I don't really care if they add or drop some skills. Make the skills interesting, and make non-combat skills useful for more than just skill checks. They should open up new ways of playing.

DarkUnderlord said:
If you can design respec to have choices and consequences, you can sure as hell design a decent fucking game that doesn't rely on respec. Respec is the designer saying "I failed to give you the adequate information you needed through the story so that you could make appropriate decisions. Here, have a respec!".

Pretty much. I recently started playing Bloodlines and Planescape recently. I realized at character creation didn't really give me any idea of how useful a stat would be in the game, or how exactly the game would play because of that. Then I realized that neither of these games could really be so hard, so I just rolled with what I had.

What are these games Sawyer is talking about where you get 20 hours in and realize you can't go any further?
 

Lightknight

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What are these games Sawyer is talking about where you get 20 hours in and realize you can't go any further?
Something like the second Avernum trilogy ? You can get stuck, maybe not too easily, but since Vogel removed random encounters you can actually get to the point where its not possible to get any stronger.
 

Shannow

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I usually tagged lockpicking and doctor in FO2 :M

Lockpicking: I want to open everything, I don't like reloading and I do give up and come back later when I fail to open a lock too often.

Doctor (and first aid): I often see people arguing with builds/classes/skills that lead to late game power. They simply ignore the early stages. Having free healing and xp buffs is useful in the early stages of FO(2). It saves money when you have to heal crippled limbs. There are quite a few skill checks for it and it opens up one or two perks that can be useful (at least in FO2). Though I'd also combine them in one skill.
 

Roguey

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GarfunkeL said:
almondblight said:
Lockpicking and Repair (for the energy fields) could be done over and over again until you got the desired results
Why do you lie? Failing lock picking had a chance of ruining the lock forever, you couldn't try forever, not to mention that with low repair you would have to try thousands of times to fix the energy fields - and there were a bunch of them. Only a super-aspie would have the patience to do something like that. So no, they aren't marginal/useless skills.
If I remember correctly, the lock only remains broken for a 24 hour period (something of a big deal in F1, not so much in F2). But as mentioned before, most people just save there and reload if that happens.
VentilatorOfDoom said:
So, what games or those? Which games are demanding the player to manage too many options at once? Must be hard for the players.
ezg1ht.jpg

Yep. Made me do a doubletake, if anything, NWN2's problem is that it isn't demanding enough. If I can roll through the Herald of Zehir through sloppy tank and spanking on the hardest difficulty there's a problem.
 

G.O.D

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I'm too tired (even more by reading this) to make a remote effort to make a good comment.. so i'll leave it at:

Moar welcumin'
 

VentilatorOfDoom

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Roguey said:
Yep. Made me do a doubletake, if anything, NWN2's problem is that it isn't demanding enough. If I can roll through the Herald of Zehir through sloppy tank and spanking on the hardest difficulty there's a problem.

To be fair SoZ had better encounter design and AI than NWN2 OC or MotB. Sometimes (e.g. The Red Wizards) an enemy caster would actually cast something smart, like Forceful Hand on your party wizard. There were a few encounters that were a good challenge, at least when you tackled them at an appropriate level (i.e. not after you've grinded up to level X on the OM). Plus, the difficulty slider did more than just "OLOLLOLOL enemies deal twice the damage", which is of course entirely insignificant because why should you bother that enemies deal double damage if they don't hit you anyways?

The biggest problems with NWN2 combat is in my opinion twofold: MaxHP for everyone and saving throw inflation. A 10d6 fireball is nice and dandy but why should a 300HP fighter give a shit? Especially considering the myriad of items and spells with saving throw increasing effects a lot of which do nicely stack? In the end you're pretty much immune to anything requiring a save and run around with >50 AC. But your fighter doesn't want to miss out on the best arcane buffs, eh? That's why Greater Heroism, Improved Invisibilty and Mirror Image are available in potion form. All that makes it obvious why you can roflstomp over everything with zero effort.
 

MMXI

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Wikipedia said:
Notable game credits
  • Alpha Protocol (2010), 1C-SoftClub
    Fallout: New Vegas (2010), Obsidian Entertainment
    Neverwinter Nights 2 (2006), Obsidian Entertainment
    Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader (2003), Interplay
    Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance (2002), Interplay
    Icewind Dale II (2002), Interplay
    Icewind Dale: Heart of Winter (2001), Interplay
    Icewind Dale (2000), Interplay
Yep. This guy certainly knows a thing or two about RPG design.
 

MetalCraze

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Wow. Sawyer is a retard.

Not better than Bioware's "designers" and their "we are not dumbing down, we are improving!"

Good thing he imrpoved frustrating crap like Fallout by making it a shooter.
 

Regdar

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It seems all developers talk about nowadays is the challenges they face trying to make their games more available to retards. And they always frame it like "we want numerically challenged people to enjoy the great RPG genre because we're so fucking benevolent, but at the same time we want there to remain just enough numbers in the game so our old fans won't abandon us". If you're not a hopeless Obsidian fanboy, you'd have noticed by now that they're no different.
 

Sceptic

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VentilatorOfDoom said:
That's why Greater Heroism, Improved Invisibilty and Mirror Image are available in potion form. All that makes it obvious why you can roflstomp over everything with zero effort.
I'm one of these people who always hoard potions/scrolls then forget about them. It makes games like SOZ much more fun, as I'm in effect playing as if these "easy mode items" weren't there. Not really an excuse for why they're there, but definitely an indication that, if you have enough willpower to not use them, the rest of the game is extremely well balanced.
 

Vaarna_Aarne

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VentilatorOfDoom said:
The biggest problems with NWN2 combat is in my opinion twofold: MaxHP for everyone and saving throw inflation. A 10d6 fireball is nice and dandy but why should a 300HP fighter give a shit? Especially considering the myriad of items and spells with saving throw increasing effects a lot of which do nicely stack? In the end you're pretty much immune to anything requiring a save and run around with >50 AC. But your fighter doesn't want to miss out on the best arcane buffs, eh? That's why Greater Heroism, Improved Invisibilty and Mirror Image are available in potion form. All that makes it obvious why you can roflstomp over everything with zero effort.
Personally, I consider any random elements in character creation to be the very zenith of gay. Especially things like randomized HP. 100% point-buy made using dice to create a character obsolete and retarded long ago.

PS: Though I agree, all classes except Wizards should be banned.
 

deus101

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Vaarna_Aarne said:
VentilatorOfDoom said:
The biggest problems with NWN2 combat is in my opinion twofold: MaxHP for everyone and saving throw inflation. A 10d6 fireball is nice and dandy but why should a 300HP fighter give a shit? Especially considering the myriad of items and spells with saving throw increasing effects a lot of which do nicely stack? In the end you're pretty much immune to anything requiring a save and run around with >50 AC. But your fighter doesn't want to miss out on the best arcane buffs, eh? That's why Greater Heroism, Improved Invisibilty and Mirror Image are available in potion form. All that makes it obvious why you can roflstomp over everything with zero effort.
Personally, I consider any random elements in character creation to be the very zenith of gay. Especially things like randomized HP. 100% point-buy made using dice to create a character obsolete and retarded long ago.

PS: Though I agree, all classes except Wizards should be banned.

Fuck off weabo!
 

sgc_meltdown

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Vaarna_Aarne said:
PS: Though I agree, all classes except Wizards should be banned.

Muscle Wizard
Sneaky Wizard
Holy Wizard
Smiting Wizard
Nature Wizard
Music Wizard
Double Wizard (this one dual wields wands or staffs)


:thumbsup:
 

Monk

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Anything randomized should still operate within certain parameters. In that case, mechanical chaos should not take place.

Small increases in stats should be seen in light of numbers needed to, say, use particular armor or weapons. In that case, it's possible to focus on stats and see particular increases are needed.

As mentioned by others, there should be different solutions to various problems. In which case, one should be able to develop various parties or characters to solve them. It might be helpful, though, to make limitations in the character or party generation (such as maximum points to a particular attribute such that the player will have to use remaining points for others).

It's possible to have many options and something like a few templates with various default options that players can select.

Instead of having a skill like "big guns," it's better to look at a set of attributes and use combinations from these to develop such skills, such as physical strength combined with accuracy.
 

undecaf

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
Sawyer comments on the randomization issue at Obsidian boards:

Even tabletop players know it's better to have an attack/weapon that does more dice of damage than one with about the same range but fewer dice. For example: a spell that does 6d4 damage vs. one that does 4d6+1. Even though the latter has a slightly higher average (and max), the former will result in a smaller bell curve. An even better example is a 2nd Ed. longsword +1 vs. a broadsword. Ignoring the obvious additional benefits of a longsword +1 being magical and being more likely to hit, 1d8+1 has a broader bell curve than 2d4. Generally speaking, more reliability = better than.

In my talk, I didn't advocate completely eliminating randomization, but I did advocate eliminating extreme randomization and randomization that allows for "uncontested" re-rolls via reload. E.g.: lockpicking, speech checks, crafting checks, etc. A good combat example would be the "Old School" Disintegrate spell. Make the save or you're annihilated. It's an all-or-nothing spell. People used it to great degenerate gameplay lengths in old Infinity Engine games to kill powerful enemies on the first round of combat. If the creature made the save, they'd just reload. It's all-or-nothing mechanical chaos. Newer versions of Disintegrate simply do a lot of damage on a failed save, with less damage on a successful save. Still potent, but not live-or-die, and less likely to encourage save scumming in a CRPG environment.

http://forums.obsidian.net/index.php?s=&showtopic=57754&view=findpost&p=1139527

e: duh, seems he used the same disintegrate example earlier already...
 

MMXI

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undecaf said:
Sawyer comments on the randomization issue at Obsidian boards:

Even tabletop players know it's better to have an attack/weapon that does more dice of damage than one with about the same range but fewer dice. For example: a spell that does 6d4 damage vs. one that does 4d6+1. Even though the latter has a slightly higher average (and max), the former will result in a smaller bell curve. An even better example is a 2nd Ed. longsword +1 vs. a broadsword. Ignoring the obvious additional benefits of a longsword +1 being magical and being more likely to hit, 1d8+1 has a broader bell curve than 2d4. Generally speaking, more reliability = better than.

In my talk, I didn't advocate completely eliminating randomization, but I did advocate eliminating extreme randomization and randomization that allows for "uncontested" re-rolls via reload. E.g.: lockpicking, speech checks, crafting checks, etc. A good combat example would be the "Old School" Disintegrate spell. Make the save or you're annihilated. It's an all-or-nothing spell. People used it to great degenerate gameplay lengths in old Infinity Engine games to kill powerful enemies on the first round of combat. If the creature made the save, they'd just reload. It's all-or-nothing mechanical chaos. Newer versions of Disintegrate simply do a lot of damage on a failed save, with less damage on a successful save. Still potent, but not live-or-die, and less likely to encourage save scumming in a CRPG environment.

http://forums.obsidian.net/index.php?s=&showtopic=57754&view=findpost&p=1139527

e: duh, seems he used the same disintegrate example earlier already...
Want an easy way to limit save scumming? Limit saving to towns/temples/inns or similar.
 

J_C

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MMXI said:
undecaf said:
Sawyer comments on the randomization issue at Obsidian boards:

Even tabletop players know it's better to have an attack/weapon that does more dice of damage than one with about the same range but fewer dice. For example: a spell that does 6d4 damage vs. one that does 4d6+1. Even though the latter has a slightly higher average (and max), the former will result in a smaller bell curve. An even better example is a 2nd Ed. longsword +1 vs. a broadsword. Ignoring the obvious additional benefits of a longsword +1 being magical and being more likely to hit, 1d8+1 has a broader bell curve than 2d4. Generally speaking, more reliability = better than.

In my talk, I didn't advocate completely eliminating randomization, but I did advocate eliminating extreme randomization and randomization that allows for "uncontested" re-rolls via reload. E.g.: lockpicking, speech checks, crafting checks, etc. A good combat example would be the "Old School" Disintegrate spell. Make the save or you're annihilated. It's an all-or-nothing spell. People used it to great degenerate gameplay lengths in old Infinity Engine games to kill powerful enemies on the first round of combat. If the creature made the save, they'd just reload. It's all-or-nothing mechanical chaos. Newer versions of Disintegrate simply do a lot of damage on a failed save, with less damage on a successful save. Still potent, but not live-or-die, and less likely to encourage save scumming in a CRPG environment.

http://forums.obsidian.net/index.php?s=&showtopic=57754&view=findpost&p=1139527

e: duh, seems he used the same disintegrate example earlier already...
Want an easy way to limit save scumming? Limit saving to towns/temples/inns or similar.
And then the Codex starts to rage because you can only save at certain checkpoints. (dumbed down console shit etc)
 

Regdar

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MMXI said:
Want an easy way to limit save scumming? Limit saving to towns/temples/inns or similar.

:thumbsup:

This would solve so many problems. In D&D based settings, this could mean saving is allowed only in areas safe for resting, including within dungeons in rooms with doors that can be magically sealed, or when you cast Mordekainen's Private Sanctum.

[reality kicks in] Alas, the casuals will never allow it.
 
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^Dunno, "limit saving to inn / temple" is the equivalent to having Save Points (only without the glowing ball saying "YOU CAN SAVE HERE"), and casuals were always fine with those.

And in any case, players don't have to "allow" anything. If Bethesda introduces save points in Skyrim and says they're doing it because it's more awesome and immersive that way, everyone will love it.
 

Menckenstein

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sgc_meltdown said:
Vaarna_Aarne said:
PS: Though I agree, all classes except Wizards should be banned.

Muscle Wizard
Sneaky Wizard
Holy Wizard
Smiting Wizard
Nature Wizard
Music Wizard
Double Wizard (this one dual wields wands or staffs)


:thumbsup:

You forgot MISTER Wizard
 
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I think only allowing saving after a succesful "wait" is better than save points. You can save anywhere, but only if it's safe to sit and rest for a bit.
 

Bloom

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I think only allowing saving after a succesful "wait" is better than save points. You can save anywhere, but only if it's safe to sit and rest for a bit.
That wouldn't solve save scumming though.
 

PorkaMorka

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I can distill this down to one lesson:

"Don't actually make RPGs, make RPG themed games in other genres"

His premises don't sound so unreasonable on their own, but the conclusion is inevitably just an action adventure game with stats and dialog... the same shit everyone else is making.
 

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