It's pretty good for being able to take the hits as a non-combat character (who would have low strength and endurance and thus less HP). And if you are a combat character and you really want that awesome armour, you had to no choice but to get repair.
No, you could do that rescue quest and get it too. And like I said, with tools and the books you don't really have to put almost any investment into the skill. If you tagged repair, it would be a waste, in all honesty.
DarkUnderlord said:
It's true that books ruined most of the skills.
The problem with them was that they were given to you when you only needed a very low repair skill, along with tools, and that these were the ONLY times repair was useful. It's almost like the developers were trying to say to you "don't worry if you didn't put any points in this skill, you didn't really need to." Well, actually, they were saying that. I usually kept about 20 extra points around, and threw an extra 10 or 15 in repair when I got to the glow or the power armor. When that's all that's needed to get the full benefits of the skill, there's something wrong.
DarkUnderlord said:
That goes back to Sawyer's point about save / reload and arbitrary random numbers.
Yeah. Except, in Fallout, you didn't need to reload! Just do it again and again until it works (but I usually just went through the red fields, because by that time you have so many stims going through them is meaningless).
DarkUnderlord said:
Sneak is good "if you want to play that way" which given this is an RPG, again, is the whole point. Outdoorsman, Lockpicking and Stealing all fall into the same box. 9 / 10.
Stealth can be useful because it can open up another playing style. I've never heard anyone say that outdoorsman or stealing was useful, not even for a certain play style. I mean, really. Have you ever heard anyone say "well, my stealth character is pretty good, but I forgot to raise outdoorsman!" ? You'd have to run from a few less random encounters, I guess. Again, I've NEVER heard anyone say that the random encounters were keeping them from progressing.
As for stealing...it doesn't do much besides give you more stuff, no? As I said before, you shouldn't be hurting for any stuff save for the very beginning of the game. If you are a non-combat character, you need even less.
DarkUnderlord said:
Science gives us a way to end the game with a lower speech skill and opens up an entire storyline.
And that's pretty much all it does, no? I mean, how many science checks are there in the game, two? Three? Like repair, do you get anything from raising the skill over 100?
DarkUnderlord said:
Repair gives you the best Armour in the game which is useful whether you're combat or non-combat. 11 / 12
Which you can get other ways and only needs a low level of repair.
DarkUnderlord said:
Speech you accept is necessary. Unless of course you go low INT because you want to play that way. 12 / 13
Yeah, not necessary but very useful.
DarkUnderlord said:
Gambling I'd argue is semi-useful again "if you want to play that way" as it is a nice money skill for non-combat characters. 13 / 14
Which they'll then spend on all those non-combat things to buy? Again, this isn't a theoretical game we're talking about, it's Fallout. Non-combat characters will have plenty of excess cash from not needing to buy any weapons, and even more since they can sell all the stuff they find.
DarkUnderlord said:
That leaves First Aid and Doctor, both of which I accept are completely useless (there are so many Stimpaks in Fallout it's not like health-care is an actual issue). Again this is a case of "adding in something to make it easy for the fighter". The best way around that would be to remove Stimpaks but then that would mean re-balancing the entire combat system. 13 / 16.
Re-balance? It was balanced to begin with?
DarkUnderlord said:
So out of 18 skills, 13 of them have a significant use at some point in the game. Enough that you certainly want to consider grabbing them, depending on how you intend to play. That compares with what, games where the skills let you cast Fire spells vs Water spells? And I agree with the point about books. .
Here's my count:
Combat skills: All can be useful, except for throwing. But, hell, since throwing will even be more useful in some of these situations than the skills below, so I'll just but it in the "mostly useless" category. 5 and 1.
First Aid/Doctor: useless, no explanation necessary. 2 useless
Sneak: I never played a stealth character, so I don't know if stealthboy makes this redundant or not. But, I'll be generous and say it's useful. one
Steal: Useless. You get enough stuff in Fallout just going through the game.
Lockpick: Mostly useless. The lockpicks and re-tries will be enough when you need it. I suppose it helps with that one thief quest?
Traps: Useless. I have a hard time even remembering traps in the game.
Science and Repair: Mostly useless. There are only a few times in the game you ever encounter these skillchecks, and when they are their, the checks are low and books (science lessons) are given to you to raise them. I'll usually throw in a few points extra when I get to that point, and then never raise them again (actually, I usually ignore science, but...eh...).
Speech: Of course.
Barter/Gambling: Again, did anyone run out of money in Fallout?
Outdoors: ...or needed something to stop all the random encounters?
So by my count thats:
Useful: 7
Almost Useless: 4
Useless: 7
DarkUnderlord said:
The solution is to design the game so that they're useful. Make traps deadly, insta-kill devices and players will either get traps or avoid those areas that are trapped (which in a well designed game, will mean missing out on crucial story clues or useful equipment). Put that super-cool car into your post-apocalyptic environment for sure, but set it up so that only a repairman can get it and all of a sudden there's a damn good reason for that skill. Make hacking the supercomputer and launching the nuclear missile reliant on the science skill and suddenly, weak science characters can wreak havoc in their own unique way.
I agree the solution is about designing the game well, but I don't really care if they add or drop some skills. Make the skills interesting, and make non-combat skills useful for more than just skill checks. They should open up new ways of playing.
DarkUnderlord said:
If you can design respec to have choices and consequences, you can sure as hell design a decent fucking game that doesn't rely on respec. Respec is the designer saying "I failed to give you the adequate information you needed through the story so that you could make appropriate decisions. Here, have a respec!".