Game News Jade Empire: Special Edition in Jan 2007

[Lumpy]

adventure-game-itis.
play TNO, rather than play your character.
highly stylized NPC's.
FFVII-like spell animations

Indeed, Planescape is very much an adventure game, in the sense that moving between the areas is linear. However, the story isn't more linear than those in other RPGs.
But I don't agree that TNO is not your character. He's as much your character as the Vault Dweller or the Spawn of Bhaal or whoever is. Yes, he has a deeper background than those characters, but that background doesn't force him into any certain personality, so it can only be a plus. You can develop TNO's personality as much as you can the Vault Dweller's, if not more.
Stylized in what way? Physically or Psychically?

 

[Leo Valesko]

PTS dialogue lines reminded me some good interactive fiction. In every dialogue you have at least 3 phrases to select but every of them represent the same character – TNO. Yes, you can shape him into good/evil/neutral person, but the style of his replies will remain same. I think Child of Bhall and Vault Dweller don’t have such a great personality. They are mere player’s avatars.

 

[Lumpy]

The problem in cRPGs is that the PC can't be deep unless the developers make him so. Role-playing a lawless individual who is an ex-convict or a lawless individual that killed an entire city in his youth but wasn't caught is exactly the same.
The personality choices are usually Moral/Immoral, Lawful/Lawless (which is usually tied to the previous), and Diplomatic/Fighter/Thief. Not really enough to develop a character with half the depth of the average NPC.

 

[Hory]

In what way was PST a jRPG?

A linear plot with a strict restriction in world’s map exploration and party dialogues. Although PST had a great amount of side quests and dialogues – it still have a lot in common with any good JRPG.

JRPG dialogues are incredibly retarded so please don't compare them to PS:T which has some of the most complex party dialogues ever... definately not JRPG-level.

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

In what way was PST a jRPG?

A linear plot with a strict restriction in world’s map exploration and party dialogues. Although PST had a great amount of side quests and dialogues – it still have a lot in common with any good JRPG.

JRPG dialogues are incredibly retarded so please don't compare them to PS:T which has some of the most complex party dialogues ever... definately not JRPG-level.

Well, some JRPGs have good dialogue. I think. I can't come up with any examples, but... there's got to be some....

 

[gromit]

play TNO, rather than play your character.

Does the fact that, at the end of the game, you meet three wildly different people who were also TNO not factor in to this? I was just the latest sap to wake up in a dead man's body. All of the body's history / baggage was just the mess I inherited, the result of poor luck as much as much as drawing the short straw in FO was.

 

[whatusername]

Does the fact that, at the end of the game, you meet three wildly different people ////// not factor in to this?

Sweet Jesus Christ, don't spoil the story.

 

[Higher Game]

I'm glad I played PST before reading this thread. :evil:

 

[Volourn]

Does it really matter? The game is what? Nearly 10 years old? Geez.. Spoil away, I say!

P.S. The Vault Dweller gets kicked out of Vault 13 at the end of FO1!

LOLOLOLOLOLLIPOP I spoiled itz!

P.S. Sephiroth murdered Aeries to end disc 1 of FF7!

LOLOLOLOLOLLIPOP I spoiled itz!

 

[Slith]

Does it really matter? The game is what? Nearly 10 years old? Geez.. Spoil away, I say!

P.S. The Vault Dweller gets kicked out of Vault 13 at the end of FO1!

LOLOLOLOLOLLIPOP I spoiled itz!

Fucker, I haven't gotten that far yet. :evil:

 

[Leo Valesko]

We weren't talking about dialogues. It's perhaps the only major difference between PTS and any JRPG.

Xenosaga 1-3 got some great dialogues and plot. All of them are quite linear of course.

 

[Azarkon]

The problem in cRPGs is that the PC can't be deep unless the developers make him so. Role-playing a lawless individual who is an ex-convict or a lawless individual that killed an entire city in his youth but wasn't caught is exactly the same.
The personality choices are usually Moral/Immoral, Lawful/Lawless (which is usually tied to the previous), and Diplomatic/Fighter/Thief. Not really enough to develop a character with half the depth of the average NPC.

Even presuming that the choices are there, how many people do you think would actually be compelled to build deep player characters? The PC is only as good as the player behind it, after all...

Anyeh, Western culture and history is so great our RPGs are up to the, what, 117th Ye Olde Worlde of Elves, Dwarves, and foul Orcs now?

 

[kris]

We weren't talking about dialogues. It's perhaps the only major difference between PTS and any JRPG.

Xenosaga 1-3 got some great dialogues and plot. All of them are quite linear of course.

No, the most major difference is that jrpgs have the character clearly defined for you and you have pretty much no choice in his direction. Often not even which kind of weapon he will use. TNO had a backstory and a defined appearance, but apart from that you could define and play him like you wanted.

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

Does it really matter? The game is what? Nearly 10 years old? Geez.. Spoil away, I say!

P.S. The Vault Dweller gets kicked out of Vault 13 at the end of FO1!

LOLOLOLOLOLLIPOP I spoiled itz!

P.S. Sephiroth murdered Aeries to end disc 1 of FF7!

LOLOLOLOLOLLIPOP I spoiled itz!

SNAPE KILLS DUMBLEDORE.
BOROMIR DIES NEAR THE START.

 

[Excrément]

Just a question : am I the only one to mix "admiral jimbob" with "admirable blowjob" each time he posts?

 

[suibhne]

We weren't talking about dialogues. It's perhaps the only major difference between PTS and any JRPG.

You have to be kidding me.

I've played a ton of JRPGs, including some I really, truly love (like Skies of Arcadia :D). There are quite a few I've missed, but I'm hardly new to the genre. I've never seen a JRPG that came anywhere close to PS:T in terms of main character development or serious interaction with other party members - never mind the fact that PS:T offers a lot more freedom in quest completion (order, method) than your typical JRPG.

(I'm willing to concede the point about interaction with your party members, since JRPGs sometimes do a good job of that. The problem is, they usually force it on you, and it usually follows a linear course - neither of which is true of PS:T. But anyway.)

Even your point about linear map exploration is questionable, since PS:T is far less linear in Sigil (both the first and second parts) than the town/city portions of any JRPG I've ever played. It's only halfway true if you compare Sigil to JRPG world map exploration, which is generally more free-form, but that's apples and oranges (and anyway, world map portions usually offer the appearance of freedom much more than actual freedom). You're obviously correct that PS:T progresses from chapter to chapter in a linear way, with each of those opening up a new map area, but that's about the only similarity I see between it and "any JRPG".

(And please note that you're comparing PS:T to "any" JRPG - not really good JRPGs, or a specific JRPG here or there, but rather to the entire genre... GL with that. :arrow: )

 

[Lumpy]

Not to mention that you can't have world map travel in a game that takes place in 5 or 6 worlds.
Although it was silly how all portals conveniently teleported you exactly where you had to go to continue your plot.

 

[Elwro]

SNAPE KILLS DUMBLEDORE.
BOROMIR DIES NEAR THE START.

JUDAS IS THE TRAITOR

RAND WON'T BE READY TO FIGHT EVEN IN THE TENTH BOOK SO JUST SKIP IT (BUT THEY WON'T KILL HIM)

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

Just a question : am I the only one to mix "admiral jimbob" with "admirable blowjob" each time he posts?

It's usually "rimjob", I believe.

 

[Leo Valesko]

but that's about the only similarity I see between it and "any JRPG".

What about a strong line of relations between members of pregenerated party. BTW all of the party-characters have great image-design which includes clothes, weapon and such stuff that can't be changed - only modified?

All of the side-quests part was created using non-linear dialogues which were very well done.

PS:T is far less linear in Sigil (both the first and second parts) than the town/city portions of any JRPG I've ever played.

What about FF7, 8, 12 or Atelier Iris 1-2? In some ways they offer more world-map exploration than PTS.

 

[obediah]

Wow, some of you seemed to miss that the discussion isn't about whether or not Planescape is a jrpg, but whether it has crpg and jrpg elements.

The fact that you deal with a small number of very detailed and unique characters, and a fixed main chracter that you have the freedom to control the development of may prove the first argument false, but it is strong evidence for the second.

I don't have the knowledge or interest in debating where the line should be drawn.

 

[Leo Valesko]

I never claimed PTS to be CRPG, but the non-linear dialogues -are- the major difference between jrpg and crpg.

 

[suibhne]

Before we go any further, please let's get the title straight: it's PS:T (for Planescape: Torment), not PTS as you keep saying.

but that's about the only similarity I see between it and "any JRPG".

What about a strong line of relations between members of pregenerated party. BTW all of the party-characters have great image-design which includes clothes, weapon and such stuff that can't be changed - only modified?

Not sure what you mean by the difference between "changed" and "modified"... I assume you're not talking about PS:T, because you have full inventory access to your party members in that game. But yeah, as I already said in my previous message, I'll concede that point because JRPGs often have strongly scripted party interrelationships. As I mentioned above, tho, in my experience they tend to be mandatory and wholly linear, unlike TNO's relationships with Dak'kon, Morte, Annah, or even Falls-From-Grace.

All of the side-quests part was created using non-linear dialogues which were very well done.

What game are you talking about here? You don't mention a title. Do you mean PS:T?

PS:T is far less linear in Sigil (both the first and second parts) than the town/city portions of any JRPG I've ever played.

What about FF7, 8, 12 or Atelier Iris 1-2? In some ways they offer more world-map exploration than PTS.

First up, you misunderstood my post. I said that Sigil is far less linear than the town/city portions of any JRPG (i.e., the portions involving heavy character interaction), not the world-map portions (which are, by generic definition, the only nonlinear part of a typical JRPG).

Second... I haven't played the Atelier Iris games, and FF12 isn't out in North America for another month. As for FF7 and FF8, well... Two responses: first, saying "they offer more world-map exploration" than PS:T is silly, because PS:T offers no world-map exploration; it doesn't have a freaking world map in that sense. As I already mentioned above, this is comparing apples and oranges. Second, world-map exploration in JRPGs is all about non-plot-critical exploration; it's practically a generic convention that the plot advances linearly, while the nonlinear exploration is used for uncovering "extras" like optional party members (like Yuffie) or advanced weapons or powers (like the Knights of the Round summons - sorry, can't remember anything from FF8 because overall I find it much less, well, memorable :wink: ). This is in stark contrast to PS:T where the nonlinearity unfolds in dialogue rather than exploration - and where much of the nonlinearity consists of uncovering backstory rather than discovering TEH ULTIMATE WEAPON or w/e.

It's true that PS:T's main plot does advance pretty linearly, so in that sense it's similar to a typical JRPG (as well as a typical "Western" CRPG these days, but that's another matter), and it's true that some of the game mechanisms are superficially similar. The content and focus is so different, tho, that I'm really not sure where you're going with this. PS:T's antecedents are obviously D&D (particularly the Manual of the Planes), Baldur's Gate, and previous RPGs - not JRPGs at all. And your control over TNO's character is light-years beyond what you get in a typical JRPG, where you have zero (or at most nearly zero) control over the main character's development, personality, relationships, etc.

 

[Leo Valesko]

And your control over TNO's character is light-years beyond what you get in a typical JRPG, where you have zero (or at most nearly zero) control over the main character's development, personality, relationships, etc.

All of these features were represented with non-linear dialogues

. I assume you're not talking about PS:T, because you have full inventory access to your party members in that game.

You can't change armour, appearance or weapon of party characters. But you can give TNO an axe, knife or warhammer Impressive.

What game are you talking about here? You don't mention a title. Do you mean PS:T?

PS:T of course.

, in my experience they tend to be mandatory and wholly linear, unlike TNO's relationships with Dak'kon, Morte, Annah, or even Falls-From-Grace.

Relationships with party-members in PS:T do not influence the main storyline like they did in BG2: Shadows of Amn. All of the dialogues are great, but the only reward you got after unlocking another side of relationship with certain character is the upgrade of his stats and a new tattoo available at Fell’s place.

PS:T don’t even have bonus cut-scenes.

while the nonlinear exploration is used for uncovering "extras" like optional party members

FFX-2 offers a lot of side-quests with 2 or 4 ways to compete them. It also has about 4 different endings.

The content and focus is so different, tho, that I'm really not sure where you're going with this. PS:T's antecedents are obviously D&D (particularly the Manual of the Planes),

90% of all in-game content like weapons (all those cheap knifes), items and a lot of spells doesn’t make any difference. They just useless.

I don’t agree that PS:T combat is similar to the BG1-2 combat. While BG encounters require a lot of movement and planning PS:T battle is a sequence of spells and power-ups.

 

[aweigh]

Well, I've played a ton of JRPG's and CRPG's, and the first time I played PS:T I also immediately thought it was remarkably similar in certain aspects of design to most JRPG's.

Some points that have already been mentioned that suggest borrowed elements of JRPG conventions:

1. Party members have a unique look which you can't change.
2. Plot develops in a linear structure guiding you from point A to point B.
3. Spells feature cinematic cutscenes that take control away from the player.
4. There are several in-game cinematic cutscenes which feature unique character model animations that are otherwise unreproducable once gameplay resumes.
5. As was mentioned about a million times: the interparty dialogues that serve to elaborate their persoanlities and past histories.
6. The storyline, characters and setting are all distinctive and imaginative, and more to the point, unique in comparison to the glut of fantasy CRPG's.

Regardless of whether or not JRPG's are *good* or *bad*, the vast majority of them, if not ALL of them, use a brand-new world/setting/characters, mostly in opposite to CRPG's, which usually use some recycled license like D&D/Star Wars or something incredibly derivative.

Also, while this is certainly not quantifiable I thought another reason PS:T is similar to a JRPG is simply the focus on the narrative-driven story. Most western CRPG's have completely worthless storylines and plot and worthless throwaway characters that hold absolutely zero interest for the player, but they play on because they like the actual gameplay mechanics and enjoy *playing* the game.

This is in stark contrast to most JRPG players who usually find playing the game boring or tedious, (although most don't know they do, they just accept tedious gameplay as standard), and play on to find out what happens in the plot, or what happens to a certain character. (read: Xenogears/Xenosaga/Final Fantasy players in particular.) I played through PS:T for the story and characters, not for the gameplay, just like I've done with a lot of JRPG's.