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Editorial Jeff Vogel hates Ultima IV

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,496
He's professionall at marketing, thats what we call making a buzz. He know the outrage it would cause to say bad things about old games., and he know for sure it will get the attention of utlima style game fans.
They will check who this vogel guy is and notice he makes decents ultima spin off. The first avernums are very close to early ultima, with user friendly interfaces.
 

Lomm Cuz

Novice
Joined
Sep 24, 2010
Messages
46
Azrael the cat said:
Plus there's the time-old phenomenon that game developers view games in a fundamentally different way to non-developers, and often have tastes that seem utterly bizarre compared to their own products. They like the stuff they don't/can't make themselves, because they aren't approaching it while thinking 'is this fun', but rather 'how would you make this? How does it work?'. I've noticed the same thing in writers, musicians and painters - some of the folks with the best work like the most retarded stuff. That's why I'm far from certain that Cain was being sarcastic when he listed Oblivion as the best crpg of the 2000s - it did what he was never able to do: make fuckloads of money.

Reminds me of a 3d animator / designer I know who specialises in making CGI for TV/films/ads and occasionally games. Smart guy, great knowledge of the arts, was a stage actor for a while and knows his classics in literature, film and stage. Before he went into CGI professionally, his favourite crpgs were fallout and PS:T, favourite game was System Shock 2, and had played the RoA, Wizardry and Ultima series when they came out. But by the time Mass Effect came out, he was doing CGI professionally and was utterly convinced (and still is) that Mass Effect is the greatest game ever made. When you manage to extract why, it just seems that he was so blown away by how it achieved the 'cinematic feel', and little nuances in the way faces were done, that every other aspect of the game (the textures, the dialogue and, well, the fucking gameplay) just seemed irrelevant to him.

I suspect that's very common. I've known a couple of musos who have had some limited commercial success - won't namedrop, but they had a couple of UK top 20s before fading into obscurity. You get them to listen to ANY piece of music, and because they're into electronica and guitar every other piece of the song seems invisible. Doesn't matter how repetitive the vocals or how plain shit the song is, they'll latch on to some aspect of it and go 'holy shit, how did they do that', and declare it fucking awesome.

It's why in the golden era of stage, papers ensured that film and theatre critics weren't 'wannabe' or 'washed up' actors/directors/script-writers. It might 'sound' like a good idea to have someone 'in the business' do the review, but they are coming from a very different perspective than the general audience, or even a narrow audience segment made up of people who liked the reviewer's film/stage work. A good reviewer/critic ought to be from the audience and on the side of the audience. The last person whose opinions I'd trust about a game would be someone who makes games.

Any road followed to its end leads precisely nowhere. Climb the mountain just a little to test it's a mountain. From the top of the mountain, you cannot see the mountain.
--Bene Gesserit proverb
:incline:
 

sirfink

Scholar
Joined
Sep 10, 2008
Messages
290
If Jeff Vogel stopped sharing his opinions with us, the Codex would have to go back to bitching about Biowhore and Obshitian, and then where would we be people?!
 

CraigCWB

Educated
Joined
Apr 17, 2010
Messages
193
Well, he's correct that it's virtually impossible for somebody who is used to modern games to even play through a game that was made 20 years ago, let alone enjoy it. They're just too crude. But games are "better" now? I think maybe he forgets that it was trying to figure out what the hell you were supposed to do was one of the things that made those old games fun. Also, there's the "challenge" factor. Games used to be fucking HARD back then. I can't remember the last time I felt challenged with a recent game. Or even a not so recent one... the games of the late 1990s were all after the "accessibility" requirement was imposed on computer games.

It was a different time, Jeff. Different demographic. You can't go back. But saying modern games are "better" than old games is like saying modern MMOs are better than Everquest. Are they? I was heavily invested in EQ for almost 2 years. All the stuff about early EQ people complain about, like having to retrieve corpses and die 49 more times in the attempt? Having to spend hours traveling across the map and praying you don't get guard killed because then you'll die 49 more times trying to retrieve your corpse? Getting your ass kicked by a froglok 2 levels below you and then dying 49 more times trying to retrieve your corpse? I actually liked that. I also liked the fact that most the people I met in game were grownups but that's a different rant. I haven't played an MMO that held my attention for more than a few weeks in years.

This kind of comparison Jeff Vogel is doing is invalid, and he should know that better than anyone considering he makes knock-offs of old games. In fact I can name quite a few old games that had more advanced user inetrfaces and better graphics than Jeff Vogel's attempts. Has he even discovered sprite animations yet?
 

Forest Dweller

Smoking Dicks
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Messages
12,373
clockradiospeakers said:
The disconnect between the quality of what he makes and what he says and likes is just stunning. He's the flip side of Vault Dweller's coin -- one of them fervently and relentlessly defends older RPGs while slaving away at vaporware for years and the other spouts inane bullshit and trashes the genre while releasing fantastic games every year. A pitiable hobby, this.

(Obviously Vogel's model is preferable.)
Until AOD comes out and blows out of the water all of Vogel's games combined.
 

SkeleTony

Augur
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
938
CraigCWB said:
Well, he's correct that it's virtually impossible for somebody who is used to modern games to even play through a game that was made 20 years ago, let alone enjoy it. They're just too crude. But games are "better" now? I think maybe he forgets that it was trying to figure out what the hell you were supposed to do was one of the things that made those old games fun. Also, there's the "challenge" factor. Games used to be fucking HARD back then. I can't remember the last time I felt challenged with a recent game. Or even a not so recent one... the games of the late 1990s were all after the "accessibility" requirement was imposed on computer games.

It was a different time, Jeff. Different demographic. You can't go back. But saying modern games are "better" than old games is like saying modern MMOs are better than Everquest. Are they? I was heavily invested in EQ for almost 2 years. All the stuff about early EQ people complain about, like having to retrieve corpses and die 49 more times in the attempt? Having to spend hours traveling across the map and praying you don't get guard killed because then you'll die 49 more times trying to retrieve your corpse? Getting your ass kicked by a froglok 2 levels below you and then dying 49 more times trying to retrieve your corpse? I actually liked that. I also liked the fact that most the people I met in game were grownups but that's a different rant. I haven't played an MMO that held my attention for more than a few weeks in years.

This. About a year ago I re-subscribed to EQ, buying up the 'all in one' package of expansions and shit. And while there were a few things that were actually improvements(the 'find' feature, the mercenaries etc.), so much of the game was watered down and boring crap. I started playing EQ before there were ANY expansions and up until they introduced the bazaar and PoK teleport books, the game was fantastic(aside from some stupid design elements in the character creation/development)! You used to have to meditate to regain lost mana and if you were hurt you had to heal yourself up or find a safe place to rest for a while. And going all over the world required sneaking past guards to get to docks and wait for boats.

Was it hard? Sure...especially if you were of a well-hated race like ogres, but it was also tense and fun. getting the invisibility spell as a shaman was a true reward back then. Getting your faction up in Freeport was something to strive for. And you really had to weigh the cost/benefit of delving into Guk's lower levels because if you died down there it was a long and difficult process of begging for aid to help retrieve your corpse.

Wizards and druids were in great demand for their porting, shamans for their SoW, etc.

Now none of that matters. Everyone starts in the 'all friendly' PoK with teleport books to get everywhere they may want to go and you can pay a small pittance in the guild hall to get your corpse back(not that you need to since you no longer lose your items when you die and respawn but it saves the tiny experience loss...).

And all of that came about because of a very few console gaming young tards who complained that they should not pay money to have to wait for mana and HP to come back or to travel long distances to get places they wanted to be. And those kids by and large did not continue to play the game anyway. They jumped ship as soon as any new MMORPG came out.

This kind of comparison Jeff Vogel is doing is invalid, and he should know that better than anyone considering he makes knock-offs of old games. In fact I can name quite a few old games that had more advanced user inetrfaces and better graphics than Jeff Vogel's attempts. Has he even discovered sprite animations yet?

That's another irony. He had sprite animations in the first Geneforge but went with the old style static icons with all subsequent Avernum games.
 
In My Safe Space
Joined
Dec 11, 2009
Messages
21,899
Codex 2012
It's probably because character models looked really shitty in Geneforge series and sprites in Avernum looked half-decent.
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
Zeus said:
Where the heck did you find pre-game Vogel rants? Did you stumble across old USEnet posts or something?
Naw, I've been around for ages. I encountered them back when they were new, no stumbling required, and recognized the name. When I saw his name pop up in connection with games the first time, I was like, "You know, I used to recall a troll by that name...". Turns out it was the same guy.
 

Hobo Elf

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
14,153
Location
Platypus Planet
Re: Jeff Vogel hates Ultima VI

Ultima IV had an epic quest and morality woven into the game, which was amazing at the time. But everyone does those things way better now.

Where? Who does it better? Fable? I hope he's not implying that a Good / Evil slider with a red and blue hue is Ultima IV's morality done better. :retarded:
 

Gragt

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
1,864,860
Location
Dans Ton Cul
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin
Blackadder said:
The Vanished One said:
Gragt said:
Was he ever professional?
Point taken. Let's just say he was even less professional than usual then.

He makes his main income from creating and selling games, so yes, he is a professional.

Yahtzee?
 

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