Jeff Vogel Soapbox Thread

[sser]

Vogel makes an appearance in this GDC thing. I have it queued to jump right to him talking.



Looks like there was a very large dropoff in sales with the sequels/remakes.

 

[gaussgunner]

Blades was a lot more work, that I can believe. It has to be pretty solid and gamer-proof, not the usual shitty editors gamedevs write for their own use.

 

[gaussgunner]

Holy shit, he looks just like this guy -

 

[StaticSpine]

 

[gaussgunner]

I think his point is that he put in a lot of effort and it didn't get him anywhere financially. Which makes sense, since for an indie, time is money.

Yes and no. Reputation is money. To obtain it you have to put in the time and get lucky. Time is nonlinear, you can spend months on some technical masterpiece that players end up hating, you can procrastinate until you decide to scrap it, you can code some little killer feature in an hour. Sometimes those grueling dead end projects give you the skills and experience and inspiration to achieve greatness later on.

Who knows, maybe Blades just needed a little feature trimming or a little more polishing. Maybe it was ahead of its time, and a remake would've been a surprise hit. Probably not, but developers wouldn't know, we're not normal people.

 

[Lacrymas]

He says that the quality of his games is roughly the same, but weren't his later games savaged by the 'dex exactly for not being as good as Geneforge?

 

[Infinitron]

He says that the quality of his games is roughly the same, but weren't his later games savaged by the 'dex exactly for not being as good as Geneforge?

They were, but Codexers aren't the only ones playing these games. See here for a look at the Spiderweb Crowd(tm): http://www.rpgcodex.net/article.php?id=10433

 

[Mustawd]

Codexers generally shit on Vogel for a variety of reasons. Some justified and some not IMO.

1. His remakes of remakes
2. He casualizes some of his games. (Exile was a 6 man party and then remade into Avernum as a four man party; Avadon was a dumbed down version of his old game sin terms of complexity and char gen)
3. He bitches about pirates; IIRC, he said some derogatory things about the Codex in this regard
4. He's dramatic, negative, and constantly whines about being 40ish (lol) and being an indie
5. He ports his games to tablets, which one can perceive as wasting resources on casual platforms instead of making his game better
6. He pushes the idea of the Indipocalypse in a Chicken Little type of fashion
7. Related to #1, his overall lack of creativity and low production values (none of his games have sound music from my understanding)

Personally, I like his games, but have yet to play them all. So I can definitely see how some people can get frustrated with his constant cycle of remakes (outside Avadon ofc).

 

[Hobo Elf]

His games do have sound, but he recycles the sfx along with the animations and everything else. I think Vogel is pretty much giving up on all the tablet ports. He's come to realize that it's more trouble than what it is worth, and it hasn't been worth much. We'll hope that with his new engine that he's cooking up we'll be getting a slightly fresher take on his games that won't feel so tired from all the recycling. The problem is that he thinks he can get away with it forever because of the hug box mentality he's immersed in within his own forums where the people keep insisting that whatever he does is perfectly acceptable.

 

[Mustawd]

His games do have sound

Oops, I meant music. Corrected my last post.

We'll hope that with his new engine that he's cooking up we'll be getting a slightly fresher take on his games that won't feel so tired from all the recycling. The problem is that he thinks he can get away with it forever because of the hug box mentality he's immersed in within his own forums where the people keep insisting that whatever he does is perfectly acceptable.

I think he knows he can't get away with it forever. But he's 40 something, so how many years does he think he has left? 10? 15? Remaking Avernum 3 (which allows all Avernums to basically look the same now) and the Geneforge games might take him 5 or 6 years. So what then? Remake Nethergate?

More than likely he has a few ideas for new games which is why he's thinking of kickstarter, but if he doesn't I don't see how he can continue to just make remakes forever.

 

[StaticSpine]

Iirc he wanted also to kickstart a new engine.

 

[Irxy]

Speaking of Avernums, I'm thinking of replaying the original trilogy since I don't like most of the gameplay changes of the recent remakes, but I noticed the wikipedia article says the storyline was expanded in Avernum: Escape from the Pit.
So, the question to those who played it - is it true (can't find it mentioned anywhere else) and if yes, is it a substantial change?

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Speaking of Avernums, I'm thinking of replaying the original trilogy since I don't like most of the gameplay changes of the recent remakes, but I noticed the wikipedia article says the storyline was expanded in Avernum: Escape from the Pit.
So, the question to those who played it - is it true (can't find it mentioned anywhere else) and if yes, is it a substantial change?

Yes storyline was changed in Avernum1: escape from the pits. But nothing gamechanging. You are better off playing Avernum 1 or Exile 1.

 

[pippin]

Most of the additions have to do with Avernum's lizard race.

 

[cruelio]

Codexers generally shit on Vogel for a variety of reasons. Some justified and some not IMO.

1. His remakes of remakes
2. He casualizes some of his games. (Exile was a 6 man party and then remade into Avernum as a four man party; Avadon was a dumbed down version of his old game sin terms of complexity and char gen)
3. He bitches about pirates; IIRC, he said some derogatory things about the Codex in this regard
4. He's dramatic, negative, and constantly whines about being 40ish (lol) and being an indie
5. He ports his games to tablets, which one can perceive as wasting resources on casual platforms instead of making his game better
6. He pushes the idea of the Indipocalypse in a Chicken Little type of fashion
7. Related to #1, his overall lack of creativity and low production values (none of his games have sound music from my understanding)

Personally, I like his games, but have yet to play them all. So I can definitely see how some people can get frustrated with his constant cycle of remakes (outside Avadon ofc).

8. He ranted forever about the rush to the bottom for indie game prices and how people should value their product more and then less than six months after releasing some game I can't even remember he put it on Steam (the first time any of his games had been on Steam) for like 50% off at a time when games didn't get that deeply discounted that quickly (not to mention with all the benefits of Steam over old system of having to track down emails for serial numbers) with no indication that he was going to do that and PREEMPTIVELY on his blog said "no refunds no steam keys fuck off." run on sentence tldr FUCK JEFF VOGEL the hack

 

[cruelio]

I looked it up because I'm still mad. It was Avadon and it was over half off, from $25 to $10, released on website for PC May 2011 released on Steam August 2011. Fucking scumbag Vogel.

 

[gaussgunner]

Avadon 1 was $1.99 on Steam for years.

 

[Luzur]

So, is he actually doing something new, or just complaining?

 

[Sizzle]

So, is he actually doing something new, or just complaining?

Remaking his "all-time most popular game", so probably Geneforge 1? There was also some talk about going to Kickstarter to fund another game engine.

 

[Infinitron]

Next game is an Avernum 3 remake, then something new.

 

[ilitarist]

So, is he actually doing something new, or just complaining?

Remaking his "all-time most popular game", so probably Geneforge 1? There was also some talk about going to Kickstarter to fund another game engine.

He said engine upgrade is not the next game.

I say it's time for Avadon remake! I'm joking, of course, but Avadon 1 has most owners on Steam out of all of his games, probably cause it was the first available on Steam from the get go. And because you can buy it for a couple of bucks every other week.

 

[Sizzle]

Next game is an Avernum 3 remake, then something new.

I stand corrected. Thought he already announced his Avernum 3 remake, and that the "all-time most popular game" was referring to, as of yet unannounced, Geneforge remaster.

 

[HoboForEternity]

will a3 remake being released this yaer?

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Jeff "Buy My Remakes That Are Less Fun Than The Originals" Vogel

 

[Keye_]

Jeff "Buy My Remakes That Are Less Fun Than The Originals" Vogel

You really think so? I have played two of his games so far: Geneforge 1 and Avernum: EFTP. And the improvement in game mechanics is staggering. Combat is Geneforge was tedious, boring and had zero depth. Combat in Arcanum Avernum has at least been made beareable. And since the exploration in these games is filled with combat encounters, a better combat system seems like an enormous improvement to me. Near the end Geneforge had totally burned me out because the exploration was so hampered by the terrible combat. A remake of Geneforge with a better combat system would only improve the game.

Is there something I'm missing here? What makes the remakes less fun?

Also, just a thought, but maybe you enjoy the remakes less because you already played the original? And maybe you would have enjoyed the remake more than the original if you played the remake first? Since whichever version you play first spoils the second one.