Jeff Vogel Soapbox Thread

[HoboForEternity]

Even redditors are shitting on him https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/co...games_look_like_crap/?st=jzmnqarw&sh=4ac2c1db

the thing is, alot of those are genuine constructive criticism. the one that give tips about how to coordinate with artists better, color palette scheming, et cetera. i dunno if jeff will ever listen tho

 

[Mustawd]

He doesn’t have to is the point.

 

[vortex]

Vogel is like Quentin Tarantino of CRPGs.

 

[Lord_Potato]

Tarantino's art direction is memorable, quality shit. While Vogel's...

 

[Mustawd]

Vogel is like Quentin Tarantino of CRPGs.

Errr...more like Bowfinger...

 

[JarlFrank]

His arguments aren't even that great. Most artists I worked with take payment by artwork, not by the hour, if you hire them as freelancers. They give you a rough estimate of final costs when you tell them what you want. And they're willing to make changes until you're satisfied. You're not going to pay 50 dollars more just because you needed to make a few adjustments to the artwork. Most artists for hire are reasonable people. Maybe he's just doing it wrong and giving them temporary contracts where they're paid by the hour rather than commissioning assets and paying for the finished artwork, but why the fuck would he do that?? You only do that if you make the artist a permanent or semi-permanent member of the team and he obviously doesn't want to do that.

Same with his habit of browsing free game asset sites. Why doesn't he just browse the Unity and Unreal asset stores? There are tons of decent to good looking 3D assets there that are cheap and can be converted to good-looking 2D sprites for a fantasy game. Plenty of good-looking castle walls and medieval objects, for example. There are packs of a dozen medieval household objects for 10 bucks. Buy one of these, take screenshots of the objects from the right angle and edit them in photoshop just a little bit, and boom, you have objects that look 1000 times better than the puke-colored stuff that litters most of Vogel's games. Assets like those are cheap as fuck. You don't have to be a penny pincher about this.

And all of this still doesn't explain why he can't spare 200 bucks to hire a composer to write a soundtrack for his games. One of the most lacking things is the lack of music. Yes, some people turn off the music when they play games (lol), but to me it just feels like something's missing when there's no music at all during gameplay. All the indie games manage to have soundtracks. Age of Decadence, Underrail, even fucking Eschalon had a soundtrack (and a beautiful one at that - made by a great Bulgarian composer; maybe Jeff should just hire more eastern Europeans, they're much cheaper than the high prices he quotes). Why can't he afford a soundtrack? Musicians who want to compose for games are a dime a dozen. There's no way it's a matter of not being able to squeeze one into the budget. It's pure laziness and unwillingness to even think about this issue. He obviously doesn't care about having a soundtrack, so why invest any time in looking for affordable composers?

Also he fully ignores the fact that, had he invested the big money he made when he went to Steam into a decent soundtrack and art assets the quality of, say, Shadowrun Returns, or even just Underrail or Project Zomboid, he would now have great assets and a visual style every potential customer will like. People who like RPGs would be drawn towards his games and not put off by how ugly and silent they are.

When I played Spiderweb games for the first time in the late 00s (2008 or 2009 or so, discovered them after joining the Codex), I did enjoy the gameplay and writing, but the graphics looked like liquid puke to me and the lack of a soundtrack made them feel a bit soulless, so I just put on some instrumental music in the background. The presentation is not just bad, it is actively off-putting, and I'm pretty sure that quite a few people who would have enjoyed Spiderweb games gave up on them because of the terrible presentation.

He may not be able to vastly expand his target audience by improving the visuals, but not actively putting off a substantial part of the already extant target audience is also quite nice.

 

[fantadomat]

His arguments aren't even that great. Most artists I worked with take payment by artwork, not by the hour, if you hire them as freelancers.

As i said before,he is 25 year veteran....he is fucking old. Old people don't know how modern shit works,he got scammed.

 

[thesecret1]

His arguments aren't even that great. Most artists I worked with take payment by artwork, not by the hour, if you hire them as freelancers.

As i said before,he is 25 year veteran....he is fucking old. Old people don't know how modern shit works,he got scammed.

It takes a special kind of scumbag to target defenseless senile old video game developers.

 

[Beastro]

His arguments aren't even that great. Most artists I worked with take payment by artwork, not by the hour, if you hire them as freelancers.

As i said before,he is 25 year veteran....he is fucking old. Old people don't know how modern shit works,he got scammed.

There's more that and it's in how he keeps going on about those things. He isn't simply someone old who doesn't want to change, he knows the idea of old people not wanting to change and bangs that drum constant and loudly.

IMO, he just doesn't care and that's his excuse.

I get the feeling I think he thinks that the cost in time and money to invest in stuff like music isn't worth it. What he'll get from it won't outweigh the added effort, and it won't be a thing that'll turn away those who approach his games. Same with the graphics.

He's like a burger joint owner who doesn't see the point to lettuce, tomato, pickles, etc and just serves the paddy on a bun with some cheese and condiments. Sure, those things make a burger complete and people bitch for them all the time, but the trouble of buying and storing those perishable products, especially the wilting lettuce, is simply not something he wants to deal with. Better he loses whatever small percentage of profit from forgoing them than getting whatever he might gain from suffering them in his restaurant.

How many have been turned away from his games by these things, I don't know, but I do know I liked em enough to not care when it came down to it.

 

[baud]

So I hire Fredrika Freelancer (F.F.) for short. F.F. charges $25/hour.

(That’s a really fair price. If you’re paying less, someone else is going to hire her away from you. On the other hand, many freelancers charge $50/hour or more, but F.F. likes me and gives me a break. She probably lives in a country where the U.S. dollar goes farther. If you live in Brooklyn, I can't afford you.)

Amateur mistake. Commission per individual asset and request evaluation from multiple artists.

I don't have to use freelancers, of course. I could hire an artist full-time for 20 months. Suppose I do a big search and find someone whose style I like and who wants to work for me. How much will that count, taking benefits and taxes into account?
Many who are unfamiliar with this industry are surprised to find that artists are some of the highest paid people. Good, reliable artists are rare! Check out this site https://www.careerexplorer.com/careers/games-artist/salary/, for salary estimates.
If I'm lucky enough to find a good artist who wants the job, with bonuses and benefits and so on, I might be able to get him or her for $150000.

Unnecessary. The key to good art direction begins in pre-production. Hire a concept artist to draw a few pieces representing the style of your game, and have your freelancers use it as a guideline.

So can I even spend the extra $110000+ to begin with?

I don't have that much cash on hand. Nowhere near. To launch this project, I need to take a bank loan or raid my retirement fund. Then, if I don't break even, I'm in big trouble.

What was the point of the kickstarter then?

The comments on the blog are open if you want to share your wisdom with Jeff.

 

[thesecret1]

The comments on the blog are open if you want to share your wisdom with Jeff.

He'd ignore it anyway, or just reply with "25 years"

 

[supervoid]

He hired indie-tier Romanian who's releasing his art for free on opengameart, how he managed to still waste so much money lol. Other projects by this guy are much better than what's shown in the game. Probably Vogel tried to "save" on concept art and made dude model out of written descriptions which resulted in a massive waste of time and brain cells.

 

[JarlFrank]

He hired indie-tier Romanian who's releasing his art for free on opengameart, how he managed to still waste so much money lol. Other projects by this guy are much better than what's shown in the game. Probably Vogel tried to "save" on concept art and made dude model out of written descriptions which resulted in a massive waste of time and brain cells.

But Vogel has 25 years of experience therefore what he says is reasonable, and not just lazy excuses or incompetence.

 

[Alpan]

Vogel styling himself "cheap" is the same shtick as his "25 years" and "Grandpa of Indies" acts. He's obviously not cheap enough to procedurally generate his art assets -- which for him could have been quite feasible given that he's an experienced programmer who always makes the same type of game. It would have paid off handsomely over the years.

 

[thesecret1]

He could have just forked over like $500 from his $100k to buy 90% of the shit he needs from various asset stores online. I'm sorry, but if you pay a Romanian a $25/hour (even discounting the fact he should pay by asset, not by hour) then you're a goddamn idiot. That figure is more akin to a CEO of a big Romanian company. If he hired that guy fulltime (giving good, Romanian wage), it would be significantly cheaper that this nonsense.

 

[Beastro]

He could have just forked over like $500 from his $100k to buy 90% of the shit he needs from various asset stores online.

The money sounds like the easy part. The problem for him is sitting there going through all those art assets to pick out what he wants. It seems like it's too much for him to bother with. The cost to effort is too out of whack and is icing on the cake the cake is fine without. Same goes with the music as others have said, even just picking out free use stuff. The trouble is, even if he wanted to make that effort, I don't think he has much of a taste in art to pick out the good stuff that fits together well.

My feeling is what we've gotten from his games in the past is prolly the best thing he could manage with his talents and interests. Pushing him out of that zone to do more won't make a better product, and his latest game will be a testament to that. The only annoying thing to me is I wish he was more upfront and just said something like "Here's the thing: I personally don't see a point to adding better graphics and music to a game, at least from a developer stand point. It's a design choice, even if an odd one, but it's mine. Yes, I know they help round out a game, but I don't want to deal with them. Exerting 10 times the effort to get a fraction of that in return is not my thing. I don't want to spend days, or even weeks, listening to music to get the right dozen tracks that won't make or break the game if they're not in it. Same goes with picking out art assets. What I release is solid and is what I'm interested in developing. I understand it's incomplete, but I don't want to go any further than that. That's my choice as a developer and it's up to you to decide as a potential customer if that's enough to turn you away from buying my games.".

 

[Haba]

He is using RPGmaker assets FFS.

 

[Tweed]

I've Been Doing This For 25 Years

Niggas wanna fight him? Fight those tears.

 

[Beastro]

Vogel styling himself "cheap" is the same shtick as his "25 years" and "Grandpa of Indies" acts. He's obviously not cheap enough to procedurally generate his art assets -- which for him could have been quite feasible given that he's an experienced programmer who always makes the same type of game. It would have paid off handsomely over the years.

The thing is he never did these things, even when he wasn't old.

It's like you see a guy you live by littering and it bugs you. He keeps doing it, doing it for years. Decades pass and finally you pester him about it. He replies he's too old and worn out to walk all the way over to the nearest garbage can and you leave it there. Only you remember back all those years when you saw him doing it when he wasn't old. You confront him again and he keeps saying he's too old to walk to the can over and over. He's always done it and it's because he simply doesn't want to walk to a can; age has nothing to do with it.

 

[thesecret1]

Vogel styling himself "cheap" is the same shtick as his "25 years" and "Grandpa of Indies" acts. He's obviously not cheap enough to procedurally generate his art assets -- which for him could have been quite feasible given that he's an experienced programmer who always makes the same type of game. It would have paid off handsomely over the years.

The thing is he never did these things, even when he wasn't old.

It's like you see a guy you live by littering and you it bugs you. He keeps doing it, doing it for years. Decades pass and finally you pester him about it. He replies he's too old and worn out to walk all the way over to the nearest garbage can and you leave it there. Only you remember back all those years when you saw him doing it when he wasn't old. You confront him again and he keeps saying he's too old to walk to the can over and over. He's always done it and it's because he simply doesn't want to walk to a can; age has nothing to do with it.

If only we had severely bullied him over graphics and music 25 years ago, we could have beautiful games from him now.

 

[Mustawd]

Personally the lack of music doesn’t bother me nor do his graphics (usually. exceptions include green gross shot from geneforge and Queen’s Wish).

I plan on modding the graphics anyhow. Dat color selection hurts my eyes.

 

[HoboForEternity]

i really hope, the combat and encounters will be more engaging than avadon's.

avadon 1 have great boss fights, but avadon's ssytem in general are just watered down avernum system and jeff really never have good mob encounters since . . . geneforge.

 

[fantadomat]

Yeah,i do hope that he decides to make his system more complex,this is one of the real problems in his latest games.

 

[Beastro]

Personally the lack of music doesn’t bother me nor do his graphics (usually. exceptions include green gross shot from geneforge and Queen’s Wish).

I plan on modding the graphics anyhow. Dat color selection hurts my eyes.

Neither bothers me either, and I actually find the lack of music an odd part of his style, or at least Geneforge's style.

i really hope, the combat and encounters will be more engaging than avadon's.

avadon 1 have great boss fights, but avadon's ssytem in general are just watered down avernum system and jeff really never have good mob encounters since . . . geneforge.

I loved the addition of acid spray to the agent in GF2. Allowed me to handle stuff way over my level by kiting while keeping the DoT going on high level mobs constantly to wear them down and the game delivered on risk vs reward early on in the game even if the later bit evened off.

 

[baud]

An interview that confirm what some had said in the thread:

http://doubtful.games/how-jeff-vogel-makes-games/

Choice bit:

One fact that we probably don’t know about you:
I don’t enjoy writing games very much. It’s a compulsion and a profitable job, but I don’t have fun. After doing it this long, it’s just a grind. But I’m not good for anything else, so I keep doing it.

Whole stuff:

Spoiler

How Jeff Vogel Makes Games
AUGUST 30, 2019

Tell us about yourself – Who are you? What do you do?
Hi! I’m Jeff Vogel! In 1994 (not a typo), I founded Spiderweb Software. For the last 25 years, we’ve been writing low-budget, indie, retro, deep, epic, turn-based, huge, story-heavy fantasy role-playing games for Windows, Mac, and iOS.

If I’ve never played your games before, what’s the first one I should try?
Avernum 3: Ruined World, probably. It’s our biggest game, both in size and sales.

One fact that we probably don’t know about you:
I don’t enjoy writing games very much. It’s a compulsion and a profitable job, but I don’t have fun. After doing it this long, it’s just a grind. But I’m not good for anything else, so I keep doing it.

What games are you playing most right now?
I’m going through a ton of indie games. I’m doing a lot of Subnautica and Beat Hazard 2. I’ll also try Celeste when Epic gives it to me for free.

What are your all-time favorite games?
I’ve been playing video games for as long as they existed, so it’s such a long list. I loved Rock Band. Ultima IV. Dragon Age: Origins. Space Invaders. Adventure for the Atari 2600. The Witcher 3. Did I say Rock Band?

What draws you to make games?
Compulsion. From when I was 5 years old and spent all my time in my room drawing mazes, I have always been compelled by puzzles and games. No matter what I do, I will also be making games. It’s an obsession.

How did you get started making games? Describe your process (or lack thereof) when making games. How do you reach your final product?
When I played my first video game in 1978 or so, I immediately knew that this was my thing. This was just before personal computers in the home became a thing. As soon as I could take local classes to learn how to program, I learned BASIC and wrote little games in it.

Now that I’ve been doing it for a long time, I have a process. I spend months just letting an idea marinate in my head. Then I spend a few months writing the story and designing the system on paper. Then I spend 3-6 months working on the engine for Mac/Windows. Then I spend 5-7 months writing the game world, writing dialogue, making dungeons, etc. Then I spend 2 months in final testing, PR, and setting up online store. Then I press the big red ship button. Then I do the iOS port. Then I’m done.

How do you market your games?
Word of mouth, mostly. We’re too small to do a real marketing push. We write games that are addictive and compelling to a small, niche audience, and then we hope they tell other people about our games. We want a small number of people to be super-passionate about our work.

What game-related or game business-related media do you consume on a regular basis?
Not much. I read Gamasutra sometimes. I read r/games. That provides me all the knowledge about the industry I need. I’m not really involved in the industry. I’m just a weirdo off to the side doin’ my own thing.

What are some tool/programs/supplies that you wouldn’t work without?
Even since I’ve started, I’ve worked on the Mac, and I use a 4 button mouse. I program 3 of the buttons for Cut, Copy, and Paste. It has been an amazing, amazing time-saver for me.

What’s your playtesting philosophy? How often/early do you playtest? How do you find playtesters?
We’re too small to pay for playtesters. We don’t have money. We get volunteer testers (like most indies), and our testers are the most awesome, hard-working people you could imagine. We start testing as early as we can, at least 6 months before release. I want lots of time to get feedback and balance tips. I don’t have time to play my games as much as I should.

What are some of the biggest obstacles you’ve faced in your work, and how have you overcome them?
Nothing really jumps out at me, honestly. There were times when our sales went down, and we worked harder on the next game to get fresh ideas. We’ve had an easy time of it, compared to many. We keep our costs low and our expectations low, and get a decent middle-class living.

How do you handle life/family/work balance?
Over the years, I’ve become a hugely efficient worker. People in the game industry underestimate the value of practice and experience. It takes me far less time to do more work than it did twenty years ago. I’m super-efficient, which gives me plenty of time to live a decent life.

One of the tragedies of the industry is how it drives its workers out before they turn 40. We are wasting so SO much knowledge and experience, and it’s costing more in the long run.

What one piece of advice would you give aspiring game designers?
Get a chair with good back support. You’ll miss your back when it’s gone.

Who would you like to see answer these questions?
Anyone who can actually make a living as an indie. It getting rare these days. Sales are down, competition is murder. Everyone has to follow a wildly different path, and I bet the coolest story will come from someone I’ve never heard of.

What’s the best advice about life that you’ve ever received?
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

(Meta question: What question did I miss that I should have asked?)
What am I working on now? Our next game is Queen’s Wish: The Conqueror, coming for Windows & Mac, Sept. 11, and iOS out later this year. It’s an all-new, really innovative RPG with a fun story, huge world, and a wild variety of different adventures.
When you write indie games, you always have to hustle for attention.