Jeff Vogel Soapbox Thread

[kuniqs]

black panther design

You mean the BLM logo?

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Well, I recall the Black Panthers used to have this thing for the raised fist in the air usually wearing black gloves. I don’t recall BLM until just before Trump presidency.

Bah! I can’t find the meme where the raised fist slowly turns into a Heil Hitler (Nazi Salute).

I suppose, depending on sources of origin the raided fist is a symbol of opposing the powers of oppression.

Pretty sure there is a Sure deodorant meme also turning into a Nazi Salute.

CONFIDANT!
CONFIDANT!
DRY & SECURE!
RAISE YOUR HAND IF YOU’RE SURE!!


Yeah, we need a dictator meme commercial of this. Hell, we need a codex imp meme of this.

 

[Infinitron]

Late to the party as always: https://bottomfeeder.substack.com/p/so-how-long-until-my-business-just

So How Long Until My Business Just Dies? (Also, the Unity Debacle)​

Be careful who gets to hold a gun to your head.​

The financial statement for a fun little company called Unity. The important thing is the numbers in the bottom line. That are negative.

Not long ago, there was a big hullabaloo in the computer game development "community" regarding something called the Unity Game Engine. People got very justifiably upset and ran around screaming and then things got sort of fixed and all got quiet.

Happily, I was on vacation during most of this and was barely aware of it.

Still, it was a really interesting situation, and independent creators of all sorts could learn a lot from it. Lessons that they should learn, the easy earlier way or the hard later way.

When you're in business, someone will always be holding a gun to your head. But you can sometimes choose the gun.



The chart released by Unity that caused the panic. Basically, developers would be charged money per game install, no matter where that came from. What about demos? Or charity bundles? Or GamePass? Or piracy? GOOD QUESTIONS!
The Summary of the Situation

Though many have written detailed summaries of this somewhat inside-baseball controversy, I will provide my own hopefully educational take for laypeople. (Here is another summary. I don't know if it's a good summary. I didn't read it.)

The basics:

1. Most people who want to write a video game need to buy a piece of software called a Game Engine. It's the tool you use to make games.

2. One of the most popular game engines is called Unity. I've had a hard time finding a reliable reference, but it's market share is around 40%, which is a lot. Unity is so popular because it's powerful and because it was very cheap. Like, a corporate-suicide level of cheap.

3. Unity is a publicly-held company with tons and tons of employees. For whatever reason, a few years back it started losing money. Lots of it.

4. Unity, needing money, announced that it was changing the terms to use it. In a way that would cause enormous difficulties (up to and including instant business death) to the developers who use it. These changes were announced in the vaguest, most stress-inducing way possible, with lots of changes and no clear communication. (They really screwed the pooch with the announcement. It was spectacular.)

5. Huge amounts of noise and anger. Major developers announce they hate Unity. (I suspect in the background, developers who have lawyers on retainer are calling them.) A much-loved product becomes poison overnight.

6. Unity backs off. Announces a new pricing model that is higher but tolerable. A few devs are still salty, but life appears to go on. (Note: If Unity had skipped steps 4 and 5 and jumped to 6, a lot of hassle could have been avoided.)

7. CEO of Unity hastily departs LOL.

8. Unity's pricing changes and careful cost-cutting enables the company to return to profitability. (NOTE: THIS STEP HAS NOT HAPPENED YET.) Life goes on.

So. What have we learned? Besides nothing?

Go Look At the Chart At the Top of the Article

Why? Why look at charts? What do these stupid, boring numbers have to do with the glorious art of vidya gaems?

Well, Unity was losing hundreds of millions of dollars a year. This is already bad news when interest rates were zero. Now that you have to actually pay money to borrow money? This is a slow-motion heart attack that is going to affect a lot of companies.

If the people making a software tool are losing tons of money on it, they have a problem. But if you depend on that tool to do your job, YOU have a problem.

I use Photoshop a lot. But hey, Adobe makes money. So I can get mad at them. Hell, I'm angry at Adobe 90% of the time. But tomorrow, Photoshop will still be there. "Continuing To Exist" is one of my favorite software features.



You can always count on memes to ease the pain. Though when my business started, I was charged per MB of download. So if a million downloads had happened, it could have bankrupted me! Things are better now.

“My Development Life Is Crap From Wall Too Wall, I Have No Time, and Now I Have To Look At Incomprehensible Corporate Balance Sheets Too?"

Kinda. Hey, don't blame me. I'm not the turbo-genius who set interest rates at zero for a length of time functionally equal to forever.

If you run a business, someone will always have a pistol pointed at your temple. I mean, hey, meteorites might destroy Adobe tomorrow, and then where will I be? Similarly, there are about 80 things Steam could do that would put me out of business in a SECOND.

(Similar Real World example: Twitter recently changed The Algorithm to bury links to Substacks. Overnight, growing blogs like this one became far harder. Happily, for me, this is a hobby. Still shows: If you depend on the generosity of big corporations, you are at constant risk.)

So you do have to have contingency plans. You have to recognize when you are depending on an unsustainable situation. A company losing tons of money every year is unsustainable. And all unsustainable situations have one thing in common: They all end.

"OK, Smart-Ass. What Should Unity Users Have Done?"

Exactly what they did. The terms developers were given were completely unacceptable. They made a huge stink. As a result, Unity switched to terms roughly in line with other engines in the industry. Plus, the CEO went over the railing.

So me personally? If I was using Unity, I'd still use it for now.

"But I can't trust them now!" Of course you can't! BUT YOU COULD NEVER TRUST THEM! EVER! The goal is not to buy software from a company who loves you like your mommy did. The goal is to drag your business, by hook or by crook, to the end of another miserable year without going under.

Once you choose any tool to rely on, you are at risk. You still have to do it. Needs must when the devil drives.



Generally, unless you write a hit and get super-rich, the best thing you can do is find a solution that is tolerable and lets you fight another day.

"Isn't This the Result of the Evils of Capitalism?"

Oh god. I'm so tired.

Hey, there are really good free open source engines out there. I use SDL2, and I love it, though I have the tiniest of game businesses. Godot is also popular.

They are really, really great for certain LIMITED requirements. But Unity is just the better solution for a much wider range of needs. You know how I know? Because everyone used Unity.

Though reading all those devs tweeting that they were switching to Godot and tweeting 5 minutes later, "Oh no! How do I get Godot to do [thing Godot absolutely can't do and never will]." was marvelous entertainment.

"This Post Was Depressing and Annoyed Me."

That's life in the big leagues. Indie video games are a 2 BILLION dollar a year industry now. That's the kind of money that leads to sharp elbows and bruised feelings.

The Unity mess didn't come out of nowhere. It was caused by a plainly visible problem that was aggravated by a plainly visible change in the business environment of the Earth.

If you depend on someone else's business that is going out of business, you MUST brace for impact.

Crazy economic times are coming, because crazy economic times always come eventually. The Unity mess may just be a warning shot. Think about what you need and what you don't, and, if you can, save up a little money.

I hope this is not part one of a series.

 

[Spike]

Late to the party as always: https://bottomfeeder.substack.com/p/so-how-long-until-my-business-just

So How Long Until My Business Just Dies? (Also, the Unity Debacle)​

Be careful who gets to hold a gun to your head.​

The financial statement for a fun little company called Unity. The important thing is the numbers in the bottom line. That are negative.

Not long ago, there was a big hullabaloo in the computer game development "community" regarding something called the Unity Game Engine. People got very justifiably upset and ran around screaming and then things got sort of fixed and all got quiet.

Happily, I was on vacation during most of this and was barely aware of it.

Still, it was a really interesting situation, and independent creators of all sorts could learn a lot from it. Lessons that they should learn, the easy earlier way or the hard later way.

When you're in business, someone will always be holding a gun to your head. But you can sometimes choose the gun.


The chart released by Unity that caused the panic. Basically, developers would be charged money per game install, no matter where that came from. What about demos? Or charity bundles? Or GamePass? Or piracy? GOOD QUESTIONS!
The Summary of the Situation

Though many have written detailed summaries of this somewhat inside-baseball controversy, I will provide my own hopefully educational take for laypeople. (Here is another summary. I don't know if it's a good summary. I didn't read it.)

The basics:

1. Most people who want to write a video game need to buy a piece of software called a Game Engine. It's the tool you use to make games.

2. One of the most popular game engines is called Unity. I've had a hard time finding a reliable reference, but it's market share is around 40%, which is a lot. Unity is so popular because it's powerful and because it was very cheap. Like, a corporate-suicide level of cheap.

3. Unity is a publicly-held company with tons and tons of employees. For whatever reason, a few years back it started losing money. Lots of it.

4. Unity, needing money, announced that it was changing the terms to use it. In a way that would cause enormous difficulties (up to and including instant business death) to the developers who use it. These changes were announced in the vaguest, most stress-inducing way possible, with lots of changes and no clear communication. (They really screwed the pooch with the announcement. It was spectacular.)

5. Huge amounts of noise and anger. Major developers announce they hate Unity. (I suspect in the background, developers who have lawyers on retainer are calling them.) A much-loved product becomes poison overnight.

6. Unity backs off. Announces a new pricing model that is higher but tolerable. A few devs are still salty, but life appears to go on. (Note: If Unity had skipped steps 4 and 5 and jumped to 6, a lot of hassle could have been avoided.)

7. CEO of Unity hastily departs LOL.

8. Unity's pricing changes and careful cost-cutting enables the company to return to profitability. (NOTE: THIS STEP HAS NOT HAPPENED YET.) Life goes on.

So. What have we learned? Besides nothing?

Go Look At the Chart At the Top of the Article

Why? Why look at charts? What do these stupid, boring numbers have to do with the glorious art of vidya gaems?

Well, Unity was losing hundreds of millions of dollars a year. This is already bad news when interest rates were zero. Now that you have to actually pay money to borrow money? This is a slow-motion heart attack that is going to affect a lot of companies.

If the people making a software tool are losing tons of money on it, they have a problem. But if you depend on that tool to do your job, YOU have a problem.

I use Photoshop a lot. But hey, Adobe makes money. So I can get mad at them. Hell, I'm angry at Adobe 90% of the time. But tomorrow, Photoshop will still be there. "Continuing To Exist" is one of my favorite software features.


You can always count on memes to ease the pain. Though when my business started, I was charged per MB of download. So if a million downloads had happened, it could have bankrupted me! Things are better now.

“My Development Life Is Crap From Wall Too Wall, I Have No Time, and Now I Have To Look At Incomprehensible Corporate Balance Sheets Too?"

Kinda. Hey, don't blame me. I'm not the turbo-genius who set interest rates at zero for a length of time functionally equal to forever.

If you run a business, someone will always have a pistol pointed at your temple. I mean, hey, meteorites might destroy Adobe tomorrow, and then where will I be? Similarly, there are about 80 things Steam could do that would put me out of business in a SECOND.

(Similar Real World example: Twitter recently changed The Algorithm to bury links to Substacks. Overnight, growing blogs like this one became far harder. Happily, for me, this is a hobby. Still shows: If you depend on the generosity of big corporations, you are at constant risk.)

So you do have to have contingency plans. You have to recognize when you are depending on an unsustainable situation. A company losing tons of money every year is unsustainable. And all unsustainable situations have one thing in common: They all end.

"OK, Smart-Ass. What Should Unity Users Have Done?"

Exactly what they did. The terms developers were given were completely unacceptable. They made a huge stink. As a result, Unity switched to terms roughly in line with other engines in the industry. Plus, the CEO went over the railing.

So me personally? If I was using Unity, I'd still use it for now.

"But I can't trust them now!" Of course you can't! BUT YOU COULD NEVER TRUST THEM! EVER! The goal is not to buy software from a company who loves you like your mommy did. The goal is to drag your business, by hook or by crook, to the end of another miserable year without going under.

Once you choose any tool to rely on, you are at risk. You still have to do it. Needs must when the devil drives.


Generally, unless you write a hit and get super-rich, the best thing you can do is find a solution that is tolerable and lets you fight another day.

"Isn't This the Result of the Evils of Capitalism?"

Oh god. I'm so tired.

Hey, there are really good free open source engines out there. I use SDL2, and I love it, though I have the tiniest of game businesses. Godot is also popular.

They are really, really great for certain LIMITED requirements. But Unity is just the better solution for a much wider range of needs. You know how I know? Because everyone used Unity.

Though reading all those devs tweeting that they were switching to Godot and tweeting 5 minutes later, "Oh no! How do I get Godot to do [thing Godot absolutely can't do and never will]." was marvelous entertainment.

"This Post Was Depressing and Annoyed Me."

That's life in the big leagues. Indie video games are a 2 BILLION dollar a year industry now. That's the kind of money that leads to sharp elbows and bruised feelings.

The Unity mess didn't come out of nowhere. It was caused by a plainly visible problem that was aggravated by a plainly visible change in the business environment of the Earth.

If you depend on someone else's business that is going out of business, you MUST brace for impact.

Crazy economic times are coming, because crazy economic times always come eventually. The Unity mess may just be a warning shot. Think about what you need and what you don't, and, if you can, save up a little money.

I hope this is not part one of a series.

"(Also, the Unity Debacle)"...From 3 months ago?

 

[Doctor Gong]

I have always thought of him as not a "20+ year game developer vet" but as a "20+ year game developer survivor"

That said, some of his games are nice enough to play. But not that Queen's one, that one sucked.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Well, maybe the end of the Queen trilogy will prove us wrong. Right???

 

[gaussgunner]

That said, some of his games are nice enough to play. But not that Queen's one, that one sucked.

I don't even have to try the demo. I just know.

"(Also, the Unity Debacle)"...From 3 months ago?

Oh I see, Unity was already losing a billion dollars a year. It's going to accelerate.

 

[Spike]

I have always thought of him as not a "20+ year game developer vet" but as a "20+ year game developer survivor"

That said, some of his games are nice enough to play. But not that Queen's one, that one sucked.

???? I thought the Codex loved Vogel's games up to maybe Queen's.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Us huge fanatics COLLECT THEM ALL NO MATTER WHAT!

We even get the smart phone versions.

 

[OSK]

???? I thought the Codex loved Vogel's games up to maybe Queen's.

Most of Nu-Codex hasn't played his games. They're too busy playing action games with stats.

Generally, the Exile/Avernum and Geneforge games are well liked. Nethergate tends to be up there too.

 

[thesecret1]

I have always thought of him as not a "20+ year game developer vet" but as a "20+ year game developer survivor"

That said, some of his games are nice enough to play. But not that Queen's one, that one sucked.

???? I thought the Codex loved Vogel's games up to maybe Queen's.

Exile/Avernum and Geneforge. Maybe Nethergate, maybe. But Avadon was bad, and Queen's Wish doubly so.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

Don't diss Vogel. He's a bro.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Don't diss Vogel. He's a bro.

 

[Doctor Gong]

His best stuff is not bad at all.

Exile/Avernum 1-3, most of Geneforge, and Nethergate are Good/great stuff. His concept of low production values works if the game is good, and in those cases it works. When you have something like Queen Wish that isn't good, it becomes painful.

His stuff is on sale and if anyone hadn't played it I would recommend picking up a few of his games.

 

[almondblight]

People should also check out Blades of Exile and its user made scenarios. It often gets overlooked.

The thing about Vogel is, despite the remakes and some of the lesser series, has had an incredible output that's been unmatched. At least, the Exile 2, 3, Blades, Nethergate, Avernum 1, Genforge and a couple of it's sequels are up there with some of the best RPG's out there. A lot of the stuff hasn't been matched. The Exile games still have some of the best exploration around, and the time aspect in Exile III is done better than any RPG I can think of off the top of my head. Blades is one of the only RPG creation kits, and one of the few that got some traction and scenarios. A NWN before there was NWN. Nethergate way of basically being two games in one, allowing you to play from the opposing side was pretty unique (as well as the historical setting). Geneforge does factions as well as multiplicity of outcomes better than almost all RPGs out there.

And it was all done by one guy.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

I guess we won’t get another creation toolkit until Jeff calls it quits.

 

[Dayyālu]

I guess we won’t get another creation toolkit until Jeff calls it quits.

Didn't he candidly admit once that the reason he never remastered Blades is because it would make his business model even more outdated? But my mind is foggy on the subject, pardon me, I'm very old and tired.

 

[Modron]

???? I thought the Codex loved Vogel's games up to maybe Queen's.

Seems like most codexers jumped ship after Avadon and didn't come back to try the sequels which were a much more return to form for Vogel. I tried Queen's Wish and while it wasn't Avadon 1 bad it just wasn't that inspired. I haven't seen anyone around here say QW 2 was good (besides Fluent) and the demo of it didn't seem like an improvement on the first one so that's probably where I'll jump ship lest he produces something great out of the blue.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Queen’s Wish 3.

 

[Old One]

I totally missed Queen's Wish. I'm almost tempted to try it since you guys hate it so much. Which is not to say I disbelieve you in any way.

 

[Modron]

QW is not Avadon 1 bad, but it's pretty bland. If you haven't played Avadon 2 I would say do that first if you want to try some newer vogel stuff that's still decent to good. I do hear the Geneforge Remake was an improvement on the original but for me it's not a big enough update to justify buying it when I have the original.

 

[OSK]

QW is not Avadon 1 bad, but it's pretty bland. If you haven't played Avadon 2 I would say do that first if you want to try some newer vogel stuff that's still decent to good.

I couldn't finish Avadon 1 and I never even thought about trying the sequels.

QW is not Avadon 1 bad, but it's pretty bland. If you haven't played Avadon 2 I would say do that first if you want to try some newer vogel stuff that's still decent to good. I do hear the Geneforge Remake was an improvement on the original but for me it's not a big enough update to justify buying it when I have the original.

The Geneforge remake is great. I'd say it's the definitive version of the game. If you've never played Geneforge I'd recommend the remake. Since you played the original, it's probably only worthwhile if you're planning a replay anyway. I've played both and there was enough distance between the playthroughs it was enjoyable. I also just really like the game. The combat changes are nice the new quests/areas are good, but nothing groundbreaking.

 

[Modron]

I couldn't finish Avadon 1 and I never even thought about trying the sequels.

Perfectly understandable sentiment, I had no interest in trying out Avadon 2 but I got it from Humble Trove back when Humble just gave you DRM free games with no strings attached and I ended up enjoying it.

A2 was much more inline with the Avernums and nowhere near as boring as the first game. I even went as far as to play the third Avadon after it and it was almost as good as the second one. You just can't stress how much codex interest in the series chasing Biowarian design principles in the first Avadon killed.

 

[HoboForEternity]

I couldn't finish avernum 4. It was so formulaic like saturday morning cartoon and i never bother to play 5 and 6.

I love avernum 2 remake the most out of the avernum games.

Other jeff vogel game i didnt finish was queen's wish 1. It was also boring.

Generforges are all kino even with the hp bloat problem in later games.

 

[Haba]

All you should play are Exiles 1-3 and Nethergate. Geneforge if you still have the time. That' it.

Vogel, retire already.