Jeff Vogel Soapbox Thread

[Tyranicon]

Fantasy writers are not overburdened by a strong work ethic.

 

[Infinitron]

If there's one thing Jeff has earned the right to throw shade at, it's that.

 

[thesecret1]

Power fantasies can be wonderfully soothing. Yet, there is nothing childish or happy about them. When our society mainly indulges in power fantasies, this is a sad thing. It is a way we cope with our own perceived lack of power.

You only fantasize about having things you don't already have.

Correct. It's why almost every fantasy anime is a power fantasy – when you're a sad, lonely guy living in a cheap aparment, wageslaving at a shit job, with virtually nothing save for cheap entertainment to look forward to, an escape into a fantasy where things are different is about the only way to cope. With more and more people like that, the entertainment naturally shifts to cater to them. It's not really a bad thing, more of a reflection of the state of our society.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Post-modern and "deconstructionist" authors hate strength, purity, virtue, and courage so they write how all those things are fake and lame and everyone is a corrupt, spiteful, miserable asshole just like they are. Solipsism and misanthropy camouflaged as 'art.' This is heralded as bold and innovative by jaded critics who are tired of good-vs-evil and just want to see something new, and foisted on audiences who find appeal in exploitation and puerility (blood and boobs) but quickly get turned away by the overpowering nihilism.

Then someone comes along and writes a proper reactionary fantasy story, it makes a shitzillion dollars, and every acts like they just discovered Atlantis.

Well, we know where we are on the cycle now.

 

[Spike]

Post-modern and "deconstructionist" authors hate strength, purity, virtue, and courage so they write how all those things are fake and lame and everyone is a corrupt, spiteful, miserable asshole just like they are. Solipsism and misanthropy camouflaged as 'art.' This is heralded as bold and innovative by jaded critics who are tired of good-vs-evil and just want to see something new, and foisted on audiences who find appeal in exploitation and puerility (blood and boobs) but quickly get turned away by the overpowering nihilism.

Then someone comes along and writes a proper reactionary fantasy story, it makes a shitzillion dollars, and every acts like they just discovered Atlantis.

Well, we know where we are on the cycle now.

One of the finest posts I have seen in my short time being here. You have summed up the problem precisely. They do not assent to these values because they are difficult to carry out, so they think everyone else is the same as them. And then someone mentions Lord of the Rings, everyone wonders in awe, and somehow have yet to piece together that he was a devout Catholic. He sperged out about the Mass being put into the vernacular for one thing...

Any way, if I were to play Avernum for the first time, should I play Jeff's remakes? I have all 6 originals (which I know are also remakes of Exile) on GOG. Any reason to play the new ones (Escape From the Pitt, Crystal Souls, and Ruined World) over the old or vice versa?

 

[almondblight]

What's stopping him from writing something great and memorable?

I think it's pretty clear Jeff has drawn a ton of inspiration from the games he's played. For instance Geneforge, made two years after Planescape: Torment, seems to take Planescapes underused reputation/faction dynamic and make a whole game based on it. Many people have commented on the Ultima influence on the Exile games. Jeff has talked about the influence that Odyssey: The Legend of Nemesis has had on Geneforge.

My personal guess is that as the classic RPG's began to die off, Vogel lost a lot of his inspiration.

 

[OSK]

Any way, if I were to play Avernum for the first time, should I play Jeff's remakes? I have all 6 originals (which I know are also remakes of Exile) on GOG. Any reason to play the new ones (Escape From the Pitt, Crystal Souls, and Ruined World) over the old or vice versa?

I've only played through the original Exiles and the most recent remakes, so I can't compare the Avernums. That said, I'd recommend playing the original Exiles. The most recent remakes offer some quality of life improvements, extra story fluff, and some minor new areas/quests at the cost of heavy streamlining of multiple mechanics and much worse combat. The re-remakes are still really enjoyable games, but they feel like inferior versions.

Luckily with the Geneforge remakes he's learned his lesson about removing and streamlining mechanics.

My personal guess is that as the classic RPG's began to die off, Vogel lost a lot of his inspiration.

I think it's more so Vogel is super concerned with turning a profit on his games, so he copies what's popular at the time.

 

[Spike]

Any way, if I were to play Avernum for the first time, should I play Jeff's remakes? I have all 6 originals (which I know are also remakes of Exile) on GOG. Any reason to play the new ones (Escape From the Pitt, Crystal Souls, and Ruined World) over the old or vice versa?

I've only played through the original Exiles and the most recent remakes, so I can't compare the Avernums. That said, I'd recommend playing the original Exiles. The most recent remakes offer some quality of life improvements, extra story fluff, and some minor new areas/quests at the cost of heavy streamlining of multiple mechanics and much worse combat. The re-remakes are still really enjoyable games, but they feel like inferior versions.

Luckily with the Geneforge remakes he's learned his lesson about removing and streamlining mechanics.

My personal guess is that as the classic RPG's began to die off, Vogel lost a lot of his inspiration.

I think it's more so Vogel is super concerned with turning a profit on his games, so he copies what's popular at the time.

Thanks, I was looking for an answer like this. Will probably play the first remake as they are the only ones I own, minus Escape the Pitt (remake of Avernum 1).

 

[OSK]

Thanks, I was looking for an answer like this. Will probably play the first remake as they are the only ones I own, minus Escape the Pitt (remake of Avernum 1).

In case you aren't aware, the original Exile games are now freeware. You can download them directly from Vogel's site: https://spiderwebsoftware.com/productsOld.html

It might take a bit of work to get the games running on a modern OS though.

 

[Infinitron]

https://bottomfeeder.substack.com/p/if-someone-has-a-destiny-they-have

If Someone Has a Destiny, They Have a Freakin' Destiny!!!​

Total lack of freedom has a reason.​

“Right now, we’ll tell you what’s going to happen in the first act. We’ll be back later to tell you what’ll happen in the second act.”
Two very common elements in works of fantasy are Destiny and Prophecy. They are both variants of the same thing: The idea that the future (both for us and for our world) is never entirely in our control.

It is one of the oldest story elements, dating back to ancient days when Oedipus was told, "About your mom? Um, we have some bad news there."

People who write fantasy often feel a need to put in prophecies. After all, It's fantasy, right? Doesn’t the hero have to be told by God that he’ll win?”

Not necessarily. In fiction, prophecy has a purpose. If you don’t understand it, you won’t be able to make it work.

So time for a mini-deep dive. Destiny. Prophecy. Why are they there? What do they mean? What purpose do they serve in a story?



In God of War Ragnarok, destiny is controlled by the Norns. You can go on a several hour quest to find them to have a meeting with no consequences whatsoever.
An Illustrative Example

I recently played God of War Ragnarok, which was a bloodless and wimpy retelling of Norse Mythology, with more annoying teens and fetch quests.

One of the most powerful elements of Norse Mythology is the prophecy of Ragnarok. Ragnarok is the final war, the apocalypse, the death of all things. It was a visceral acknowledgment that death comes to all in the end, even the wisest and mightiest.

Well, in God of War Ragnarok, all the characters know of this prophecy. As a result, we have this conversation about 80 times:

"We must prepare for this, because it's the prophecy!"

"No, prophecies don't have to happen! We'll prevent it!"

Again. And again. And again.

Of course, in the end, they defeat the prophecy of Ragnarok and save most of the Norse pantheon. Which is why worship of Freya and Thor is common to this very day.

The Problem With Prophecies These Days

There's no law against having a prophecy in your story. But if you're going to have it? Go for it! But you don't need some squeaky-voiced angsty teen talking about how prophecies are dumb every 17 seconds.

The mode of contemporary fiction is one of absolute freedom. Everyone can do anything. Every bad thing can be avoided. Everyone becomes a good person by saying they're a good person. Not even a gruesome, joyous bloodbath like God of War is immune to being made all squishy.

Everything is a Disney movie now. If you're a rat who wants to work in a high-end kitchen serving $300/plate dinners, that's cool! (NB: Rats should not be in kitchens.)

Why is this a problem? The answer is to focus on what is it about the idea of destiny that has made it an integral part of human drama since the beginning of recorded time?



I am a real weirdo. For example, I have always named my computers after women in Greek tragedy. The computer I’m typing this on is called Jocasta, after Oedipus’ mom. She had a complicated life.
You Have a Destiny. You. Yes, You.

Fundamentally, destiny and prophecy are reflections of one simple idea: We are all subject to forces outside our control.

This is true both within and without. Outside our bodies, we are part of a gigantic blob of humanity. Humans form into groups and nations and armies which dwarf us. History lurches onward, outside of our control. Almost all of us, when all is said and done, are ants.

(Which is why conspiracy theories are ultimately comforting, because they let us pretend that somebody is in control of this mess.)

Meanwhile. inside our bodies, we are trapped by our own minds and our own limitations. We all have the capability to change, yes, but not very much. Nobody can do everything, nobody can adjust to every challenge. A lot of growing older is just coming to terms with our increasingly limited capabilities. Until, of course, the final inevitable loss of all capabilities.

What does this mean? It means that the world in which you live, in both small and large scale, is going to change in ways that you can't control. We are all at the mercy of forces outside and inside us.

This Is Hard To Accept

And thus, we turn to art. Art, at its best, gives us a way to understand ourselves, the humans around us, and the world in which we live. When a story has a prophecy in it, it says, "The characters in this story can do what they want, but the fate of the world is out of their control. The best they can do is react and cope."

This appeals to us because this is the way we must live our own lives. This comforts us. It makes us feel less alone.

Lack Of Choice Can Be Comforting

The current mode in fiction is that we are free of tradition, free of duty. Everyone must entirely make their own lives from scratch. Our lives? Our job? Our moral code? Everything must be made anew. It is always Year 0.

For some people, this is great, but not everyone is built to manufacture a whole reality. For some, the idea of giving up some freedom in return for stability is reassuring.

Our fantasy can mock the idea of Destiny, but it will still inevitably turn to the idea. Dreaming of Destiny gives us a brief respite from life's unending and suffocating choices.



In our post-literate culture, I suspect Shakespeare is on the outs. If he was so smart, why didn’t he think up Iron Man? Yet, I think Romeo & Juliet and Macbeth will be around for a long, long time. They’re tight.
A Final Example: Macbeth

So, Macbeth is kind of awesome, right? Ambitious warlord walks through a swamp and meets some witches. They predict that his lust for power will drive him to kill the king and take his crown. And then it will all fall apart. And that’s exactly how all that goes down. (Warning: This paragraph contains spoilers for Macbeth.)

Macbeth is an entire story on rails. Witches say it happens. It happens. And it works, enough so that people are still going on about it four centuries later. Why?

Because prophecy in Macbeth is first educational and then reassuring.

The first prophecy is about the inevitably of evil. Greed, betrayal, paranoia, collapse, these are all inevitable parts of being human. When the witches say the ambitious psycho guy will take everything he can, it isn’t that much of a stretch. This is how how humanity works. It is inevitable.

Bad news, right?

But the second prophecy is one of hope. It says that evil contains the seeds of its own downfall. The qualities that make you steal and kill and the same qualities that will make anything you build fall apart. It is inevitable.

Prophecy is a plot device of remarkable power, because it helps us accept the inevitable, good and bad.



I’m not saying I want this prophecy to come to pass, but it does look pretty wild.
If I Put a Prophecy In My Story …

I shouldn’t advise other artists about how to make their art, but I can say what I would do.

If I am giving a character in my story a Destiny, I’m saying this is a thing that HAS to happen. So, why?

Perhaps I believe that there is a reason it has to happen, like it or not, having to do with the nature of humans, or reality, or society. (The Macbeth route.)

Perhaps I think it adds something to the story, a bit of a perverse twist, that takes a dark story and gives it a bit of ironic spice. (The Oedipus route.)

Either way, though, when I say something is the Prophecy, that crap is gonna’ happen.

So Respect Destiny

Again, there's no law that says your story has to have a prophecy or destiny in it.

But if it does? Respect it! If you say a character has a destiny and then weasel out of it, you are cheating. Your work is dishonest.

As for me, I've written 18 distinct works of fantasy, and none of them have had a prophecy. Not a one. This is fine, because I have a different focus: I put the player in the position of one of the few, rare people who can make choices that actually affect the world.

This enables me to explore the human condition in a different way. It's also a nice balm for the players, who, like me, experience life as a long period of more-or-less powerlessness.

Because while defeating destiny is satisfying for a time, eventually reality will catch up with you. It's bleak, but it's necessary preparation. Whoever you are, eventually you start to run out of choices.

We don't know when that dark day will come. Thankfully, art can help us prepare.

 

[DoctorJew]

Rather thoughtful article about how fantasy has displaced everything: https://bottomfeeder.substack.com/p/fantasy-is-universal

Fantasy Is Universal​

A bunch of thoughts about the Human Default.​

Fantasy.
Sometimes I have to remind myself, with a bit of a shock, that I write fantasy for a living.

It's an easy thing to forget. Yes, I write fantasy. But I do it in a highly popular, successful, vibrant, undervalued medium (video games) instead of a respected, posh medium that nobody cares about (books). Writing books is considered much more classy and valuable, even though hardly anyone wants them anymore.

(This brings me great sadness. But it's true.)

My almost thirty year fantasy-writing career has been very prolific (18 all-new games!) and my work was generally of acceptable quality. As I age, I increasingly find myself in reflective moods. I've found myself thinking about the genre. Who likes fantasy? What makes fantasy work? How do you make it well? What does it MEAN?

For nerdy writer types like me, these are significant questions. After all, fantasy is the default mode for fiction by humans.


At last, Gandalf directly confronts Saruman.
I've Defining Fantasy Broadly Here

When you say Fantasy to most people, they'll immediately think wizards and dragons. It's understandable, even though High and Low Fantasy are not huge parts of the dramatic fiction diet these days.

But what makes fantasy fantasy is that it is fantastic. It is the stuff of human fantasies.

When a child dreams of growing up to be a fireman or astronaut (does that happen anymore?), they see themselves saving people, exploring new places, being a hero, becoming larger than life. They are fantasizing. This means that they are making fantasy.

A child's fantasies are daydreams. Fantasy in mass-market pop culture is the way our society daydreams.

The beings in fantasy fiction are works of imagination. They are fantastic, in that they don't exist. Fantasy deals with creatures who are apart from us, maybe above, maybe below, but always distinct and apart.


This trilogy has been stuck at 2 books for twelve years. Fantasy writers are not overburdened by a strong work ethic.
Humans Rely On Fantasy

We now have about five thousand years of human drama, from the Epic of Gilgamesh to present days. If you give it a scan, from the early scraps that survive to the movie and books of now, we find that humans create and crave stories of people and beings bigger than ourselves.

Human drama tells stories of gods and monsters, tragic heroes, mighty warriors, cunning villains, magic and destiny and prophecy, epic adventures.

(Note I am going to focus exclusively on drama. Comedy is an entirely different beast.)

Realistic drama, psychological studies of ordinary humans, only appears in a few slivers of known history. Even then, realistic drama about mundane people is constantly being squeezed out by tales of mighty heroes.

(Comedy, on the other hand, focuses entirely on the foibles of ordinary humans. This is the last time I'll mention comedy, but it's important to make it clear that this is a major, entirely distinct mode of fiction.)


When ordinary humans see themselves as entirely incapable of bringing change, fantasy provides our only hope.
Examples

Superheros are fantasy. They are about people or beings who are beyond our capabilities and understanding, fighting in the skies above. Batman is as much a fantasy character as Gandalf.

The tragic heroes of Ancient Greece and Shakespeare are creatures of fantasy. They are like us. They have our qualities. Yet, they are heroes. They are a more intense, purified version of humanity. Yet, for all their power, Hamlet and Macbeth and Oedipus have flaws, mighty heroic flaws, that bring them to ruin. (That we can look up at them and ponder how even the great share the flaws and final fate of normal people gives valuable hints about the purpose and power of the genre.)

Or look at something closer to home: The American Western. John Wayne (a wealthy Hollywood actor in real life) made his career portraying absolute masculine ideals. Clint Eastwood only ever played superheroes in his movies. Shane (a marvelous movie) is about an unstoppable killer who wants to be an ordinary human, only to find that he will always be forced to be who he actually is.

The anime and manga that are so popular are almost entirely fantasy. Even when it has no explicitly fantastic elements, the characters have these weird, typed, purified personalities. Like they’ve been beamed in from an alternate universe.

Horror is fantasy with an unhappy ending.

When humans make fiction, we are undeniably pulled toward the fantastic. Heroes and villains, gods and monsters.

One Way To Tell If Something Is Fantasy

Suppose a character is in a big fight. The character slips, falls at least ten feet, lands on something hard, and then gets up and continues to fight. Uninjured and unaffected.

If this happens, you are watching fantasy.


Totally fantasy. Also, really, REALLY long.
An Aside About Science Fiction

Science fiction tends to place itself between two ends of a spectrum.

One end is fiction that asks questions about how our reality can change and how humans will deal with it. It is storytelling of a curious and philosophical bent. This had a good run for a long time and is largely disappearing now. Philosophy is as boring as realism.

The other end is more fantasy, just with laser guns and teleporters and spaceships. More big guns, magic brain powers, and space gods. Good guys fighting bad guys. But. You know. In space.

Star Wars was always at the second end. Star Trek started out at the first end but has spent decades succumbing to the pull of the second end. Dune is a classic because it is so huge that it can alternate effortlessly between both ends (seriously, read the book), but it is still full of magic. They don't make 'em like that anymore.

Science fiction started out as an amazing thing, and it still has intermittent periods of great thoughtfulness. Yet, it too succumbed to the gravity of fantasy.


When your science fiction is about immortal telepaths who can mind control others and see the future, it’s fantasy. Awesome, thoughtful, philosophical fantasy, yes. But still.
What Is the Pull of Fantasy?

The golden age for realistic drama for humans was the 19th and 20th century. Realistic examinations of the human condition, with flawed, mortal people in real settings, took over.

As a result of this golden age of realism, when I was a teenage nerd in the 1980s, us weirdos longed for quality fantasy content, and it just wasn't there in quantity. We settled for rewatching Star Trek and Star Wars for the millionth time. We were so desperate that we watched Doctor Who, for God's sake!

How much things have changed in a few decades. The Superman movie snuck through somehow in 1978 and did great. There was a popular sci-fi or superhero movie every year or two. The big Batman movie did great in 1989. And then ... superheroes EVERYWHERE. They became inescapable and still are.

Why? What compels us to watch characters who are like us, and yet fundamentally different?

Maybe It's Best Not To Overthink It

We spend a lot of regular life feeling dumb and small and weak and confused. Even if we avoid feeling that way, we still ARE dumb and small and weak and confused.

When we watch mighty heroes on a screen, we can identify with them and thus feel less weak and small. Maybe the reason realism died off and fantasy took over the world is that the world of the 21st century is so good and efficient at making us feel weak and small.

Only comfortable people in stable situations get the luxury of art that is careful, psychological examinations of the human condition.

The soothing opiate that is power fantasy is a good part of the appeal of fantasy. And yet, it's more complicated than that. Fantasy doesn't need power to be successful. It can be dark and sad and free of hope, and yet still totally compelling. Look at Game of Thrones. Or all horror.

There is also a great appeal in feeding our imagination. It is delightful to be shown a different world, a new reality, an alien culture. Even when Game of Thrones was a misery wallow, it was still showing us a plausible alien culture and way of life. Even with the dragons and wizards, Game of Thrones was still better science fiction than most science fiction.

If someone can show us a new world and make us believe in it, we will follow until we've seen too much of it and get bored. (See: Marvel movies. Star Wars. Any IP Disney is strip-mining, really.)

Fantasy can also be used to disguise unappealing truths. If I wrote a book about high schoolers in Iowa getting para-military training with rifles to hunt terrorists, this could be a hard sell. Nobody wants to publish books about giving 9th graders AR-15s. But if I said the rifles were “wands” and the terrorists were “evil wizards”? Then I have Harry Potter and make a billion dollars.


Totally not a gun.
A Power Fantasy Is an Expression of Sadness

Power fantasies can be wonderfully soothing. Yet, there is nothing childish or happy about them. When our society mainly indulges in power fantasies, this is a sad thing. It is a way we cope with our own perceived lack of power.

You only fantasize about having things you don't already have.

I find our recent obsession with Marvel movies to be depressing. Set aside whether they are good movies. Why can we only imagine people being able to make a positive difference in their societies when they have magic powers?

Creating Fantasy Is Its Own Craft

I don't care if fantasy is great art. That's a question for posterity to decide. I only care about how to make fantasy WELL.

I often joke about how fantasy is the easiest thing in the world to make. "The world is threatened by the evil Whatsit. To kill it, you must get the magic Sword of Shmoo. To get the sword, your friends must sneak through the land of the Dinklings." And so on. And so on. HOW HARD IS THAT!?"

But nothing is easy. Fantasy reaches something primal in human beings. When you create it, you are trying to affect other humans at a base, visceral level and an intellectual level simultaneously. This is NOT EASY. Fantasy has its own rules, its own tricks and pitfalls and things that make it function.

Amazon brought insane power to bear to create its Rings of Power series. All the talent and resources in the world. With every advantage, they ended up with a show that people just didn't want. And I don't think it's hard to see why. Rings of power is an excellent case study on how NOT to create compelling Fantasy. How to make it well, I’ll take up in future articles.

This has been a meandering piece, and I'm only planning to wander more. It's a big topic. I'm planning a few blogs posts about the craft of fantasy. I'll look more in depth at how it's created these days and examine what makes it work and not work.

well, saying that fantasy is about ubelivable/fantastic actions thats kinda childish.
steven king, the deep state ass licking commie low life said (and i agree there) that high art is about (mentally) extraordinary ppl doing ordinary things while low art is about ordinary characters, that mass audience can relate to, doing extraordinary things or having superpowers.

i personally would prefer extraordinary elven fuckmeat doing extraordinary fuckmeat things, but point is, fantasies that are not instinctivly yours are probably a trap.

fantasy first and foremost is a weapon of your mind or against your mind. he mentions how fantasy is suppose to affect others but i dont think he understands how its harvested.
high art is often just incoherent confusion and nonsense camuflaged in form of ritual to give it apperance of complexity and authority.
low art is quite openly incoherent mess to unlearn mind seeking even most basic common sense.

the whole entertainment industry is like sugar icing on jew pill starting from disney. and when u start dissect all fantasy/sci fi not as stories and not as complax characters but tools to program, manipulate and destroy viewer, now this shit is getting way more interesting.

ofc not all projections are hostile, its just all should be assumed to be until proven otherwise.

there was that awful movie with that ugly bitch with saggy tits and that homo who plays wolverine. it was called "prestige" i think.
there was scene where guy who was magician who used tesla teleportation/time travel device and killed clones of himself in magician "trick" (spoiler)
and before he finally dies when asked while he killed himself so many times for this trick to impress public says something to effect "life is simple and boring cause it makes sense (i think he means causality/science here), but if i manage to fool ppl that its something else u see spark in their goy sheep eyes and its worth it"

the poison of popular fantasy is based on ppl believing in magic and not understanding the trick or worse, thinking its so much better to not understand the trick or anything. no, its not. if you dont understand who you are, you dont understand technology, you dont understand weapons then thats it, u lost. acceptance of incoherent/ignornat perspective on events is suicide or worse; even if you are aware of fantasy world distinction the attidue will leak to your behaviour.

"Fantasy can also be used to disguise unappealing truths. If I wrote a book about high schoolers in Iowa getting para-military training with rifles to hunt terrorists, this could be a hard sell. Nobody wants to publish books about giving 9th graders AR-15s. But if I said the rifles were “wands” and the terrorists were “evil wizards”? Then I have Harry Potter and make a billion dollars."

there u go he admits it. ye why give your kid ar15 (if u were dumb enough to send it to public school) when u can give him fag wand so he can get shot next time when mk ultra convinces another tranny/kid on meds to do some shooting. jews will give u billion dollars and all publicity u want if u adverise wank wand use.


looks like russia was doing here bit of contr jewish fantasy here.

so my point is.
maledom porn is good, masculine power fantasy is good, watching/reading popular books/movies is bad and can turn you into gay furry.

btw ar15 fire control/trigger group parts getting expensive lately.

 

[kuniqs]

It's worth playing Avernum 3 (original, not remake) if only because being an Anama member is a viable strategy. Also, being an Anama gives you the opportunity to act as a Yehova witness towards Anzovin of Gorst - the wannable evil priest who raises undead out of boredom and sells spell reagents.

 

[Infinitron]

https://bottomfeeder.substack.com/p/can-the-superhero-era-ever-end

Can the Superhero Era Ever End?​

I mean, they have to come up with a second idea someday, right?​

Wait. So cars and trucks can turn into robots. And also animals can turn into animal robots? Or do cars also turn into animal robots? Does that mean there are animal cars? Oh, God. Here we go.
The Jeffdal Test

I will only go see a movie that ...

1. Has at least two characters who are humans. Not superheroes, demons, robots, monsters, aliens, or wizards.

2. They have a conversation with each other.

3. That isn't about superheroes, demons, robots, monsters, aliens, or wizards.

Of course, nobody who goes to a movieplex today can obey this rule.

For a change, I'm gonna write about movies. I've been watching all the big blockbusters, and it really feels like we're at the end of something.

I have always been a fiend for movies, of all sorts from all eras. This is very useful. Every writer should also be a consumer of media. It's a great source of inspiration and a way to keep in touch with the humanity you're trying to depict.

Though there's only one sort of high-profile movie now. Fantasy of some sort. Superheroes, wizards, time travel, dinosaurs, whatever the heck is going on with John Wick.

It couldn't last, of course. But it was impressive how long the superhero wave lasted. One billion dollar Marvel movie after another, seemingly without end. Even though they were all basically the same movie, for decades.

Disney live-action remakes of their cartoons were making fortunes, even though they were all uniformly overlong and dreadful. (Seriously. Who looked at the classic old The Little Mermaid and thought, "This needs to be an hour longer.")

But now? The Flash is a bomb. The new 8 hour The Little Mermaid will struggle to break even, which, when you're Disney, is very bad. Disney+ subscriptions are down. (They did it! They killed Star Wars!) Plenty more examples of fantasy underperformance at the end of the post, but 4 out of the last 6 superhero movies tanked.

Of course, I am never optimistic about anything. Nothing ever gets better. Hollywood needs international sales to make the current model not explode, so old-style movies, about humans doing human things, are never coming back. The superhero movies will just be replaced with something worse.

Anyway

I do go see action and fantasy movies, because they give me quality time with my family. I only sneak off and see movies about humans when they are seeing something the second time.

I saw four big, new movies this summer, and I had thoughts about them. The current wave of big budget action is grinding to a halt, and the next wave hasn't appeared yet. It's the end of an era, which is fascinating in itself.

So let's check in with the dinosaurs, as the meteorite just starts to kiss the Earth ...



Get your finger off the trigger, John. You’re gonna shoot your toe off.
John Wick: Chapter 4

This movie is long. It's so long I'm still watching it.

It's well made. The actors are having fun. What I love is how John Wick turned from a goofy action series about a guy who REALLY loves his dog to a straight up fantasy series.

This is the literal start of the plot summary on Wikipedia:

In New York City, John Wick prepares to exact vengeance against the High Table while hiding underground with the Bowery King. He travels to Morocco and kills the Elder, the "one who sits above the Table".

WHAT IS THIS!? I mean, what the hell even is going on here anymore?

Yeah, they know how to film an action scene, which is an extremely difficult skill. You get to watch hundreds of dudes get shot in a wide variety of ways. There's a bad guy who is completely unstoppable with his pistol despite being blind. Because he's a wizard, I guess. It's pretty cool.

But it's almost 3 hours. Three hours of guys gettin' shot. It's exhausting. I had to take a ten minute break in the middle to get coffee. It's sad, because when you hit a really inspired scene (like the long staircase sequence at the end), you're just numb.

(Also, FYI, a huge part of the movie is a tribute to the 70s cult-classic action flick, The Warriors. I really recommend The Warriors.)

You get your money's worth, but an inability to edit is a really common trait with the new blockbusters, and it does not help.

It was fine.

If this isn't the last John Wick movie, it's very close. There might be one or two more. Side stories, prequels, that sort of thing. But they're about to have to make a new setting, and they can't do anything wilder than what they've already made here.



Wait. Who are all these people again? Isn’t the green one dead? Why is there a dog? Are we still caring about Arrow Mohawk guy? Can we just ditch the four of them that are boring?
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3

The Guardians movies are my favorite of the Marvel movies. They're fun, clever, move quickly, and take place in these really wild, pretty Heavy Metal settings. It's been observed that the Guardians are this generation's Star Wars, which lines up with what I've seen from my kids and their friends.

Also, the soundtracks are great. It's Dad Rock 101. This movie will introduce a multitude of zoomers to Radiohead AND Heart. What's not to like?

But this is clearly the last movie in the series, and it's easy to see why. This story has gotten way too top-heavy. Too many characters, each of which needs their appearance. Too many storylines.

It's the sort of movie that gets action movie legend Sylvester Stallone and only uses him for ten seconds because there's too much other crap to get to. Some gnarly dude who shoots a magic arrow by whistling HAS to have his character arc. (Will he get his confidence back and be able to shoot his magic arrow again!?!?) (He does! OMG!) (The “Will he get his confidence back in time?” story arc is never, EVER interesting.)

It was a lot of fun and looked gorgeous. The starbase made entirely of flesh was a standout and very cool. The characters were still charming and had great chemistry with each other. You got to see cute animals be horribly tortured so that you could feel like you’re watching something deep and artistic. (Deadpool did that EXACT storyline 7 years ago, right?)

It was fine. Too long. Competently made. Fun to watch. Fine.

It's also done. At the end, there is a new set of Guardians, all extremely uninteresting characters. If they make a movie based on them, it will sell four tickets.

So now they have to make a new thing, and they can't do anything wilder than what they've already done. Let's wish them luck, because The Marvels looks DIRE.



This is only like a third of the characters in the movie.
Fast X

The Fast & Furious movies have gotten spectacularly big and dumb, but they are a fun date night tradition for me and my wife. The ninth one had a bit where people drive a car IN SPACE. Like, where can you even go from that?

But these movies are running out of road. Fast X will probably break even, but it is also the first part in a series. Anyone who doesn't go to this one will not be going to the next one, because they won't know anything that is going on. Also, repeating, “It’s about family!” fifty times isn’t a magic spell to make people care.

Like Guardians, this series has gotten incredibly top-heavy. So many characters. So much lore. I've seen them all, and I still wasn't sure who half these people were. Also, every character who died in an earlier one has been brought back to life, and every former bad guy is a good guy now.

To get into this series, you have to watch all of them, and if you watch too many of these movies too quickly, you WILL suffer brain damage.

Also, how do you make an action movie with Helen Mirren and Chita Rivera and not put them in a car chase together? I will not understand that until my dying day.

The marquee feature for Fast X is bringing in Aquaman in to be, basically, The Joker. He's not really a character. He's a collection of tics and goofy lines, boilerplate evil and wacky and nihilistic. Jason Momoa is a surprising amount of fun, but this is going to wear a little thin after one or two more movies.

(Bet on one more movie. This is not making enough money to justify two more. Again, nobody who misses the first part of a trilogy is showing up for the second.)

Also, this movie is well over two hours. Did you know that the standard length for movies used to be 90 minutes? A simpler, better time.

(A fun writing exercise: For each 2+ hour action movie, figure out who and what to cut to get it below 2 while improving the movie. You can always do this.)

Anyway, the action was ok. The cars were pretty. It was fine. Intensely dumb, but fine.



This movie looks like a migraine aura, but it’s pretty cool.
Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse

So this one stands out among the four, because it's actually really popular and exciting. It's sort of kind of different!

Yeah, the characters are flat. The plot makes less sense with every second you think about it. The main villain is kind of dumb. The whole alternate universe gimmick is increasingly played out. But, who cares? The animation is AMAZING.

Like, next level. Disney/Pixar is grinding along, doing slightly shinier iterations of whatever they did before (mainly perfecting the 3D version of CalArts face), but they haven't done anything actually innovative or surprising in a while.

This movie actually bears up under watching twice! First viewing to track the plot, second viewing to just appreciate how cool and varied and unique the visuals are.

Be warned, it's well over two hours, and it's also the first part of a two parter. Because in 2023 nobody can comprehend making a story about a mutant boy-spider that goes less than five hours.

Unlike the previous three movies, this one still feels fresh. It's neat! I can see people going to wild-looking Spiderverse movies five years from now. So there is hope.



Disney animation releasing bombs and falling apart is a thing that happens every generation or two. No big. They analyze their mistakes, correct them, and try a new thing. But, in 2023, is anyone capable of acknowledging they made a mistake?
End of the Current Era

It costs a ton to make these movies. It costs a ton more to market them. When they play in a theater, the theater gets a cut of the sales (40%?). In other words, to just break even, they have to make a LOT.

These four movies are part of hugely successful, beloved franchises, but… The first three are at the end or near the end of their series. The fourth probably has a couple more movies in it, but super-sparkly cartoon Spiderman won't hold up forever.

Marvel has gone through all its most popular characters, the ones left are uninspiring, and sales are way down. DC never took off to begin with. Disney is scraping the bottom of the barrel for live-action adaptations. Pixar is looking sickly and they're running out of non-human things to act like humans. (Their next movie is about a spoon who wants to be a fork.)

The successes are less profitable, and the bombs are frequent. I feel like a 20 year cycle is coming to an end, and something new has to happen. New ideas, or a financial road accident. Avatar can't carry the whole industry by itself. The Mission: Impossible movies are still fine, but Tom Cruise can't carry Hollywood on his back either.

These movies are all fine. You know. Not great. Not bad. Fine. In this world of infinite entertainment options, "fine" will only get you so far. Time for some new ideas. And soon. (Don’t worry, video games! Sure there’s no warning for you here!)

Long story short. If you need a movie, I recommend Buster Keaton, the first action star. They're free on YouTube, they're short, and they're really cool. He broke his neck making one of them, which shows moxie! That kid is going places!

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

** Avernum: The Exile ** - cinematic universe coming soon....

 

[Sceptic]

Man spends the last ten years making remakes and derivative works and going to the cinema to watch remakes and derivative works, complains about remakes and derivative works.

I don't go to the cinema often, once every month or two, but in the past 2 years I have seen exactly one sequel/remake/blockbuster/whatever. Sure, the number of derivative movies has reached ludicrous proportions, but the original stuff that he pretends to crave and pretends doesn't exist is out there. Bitching about remakes/sequel being popular when you're part of the masses who keep watching them and signaling that there's a market for more of them is just plain stupid.

 

[Infinitron]

Good post: https://bottomfeeder.substack.com/p/the-most-important-article-on-selling

The Most Important Article On Selling Indie Games Ever!​

Please don't pee in the pool I'm swimming in.​

People really undervalue apologies. Almost everyone understands that sometimes things don’t work out and nothing can be done now. An honest apology will defuse a lot of free-floating rage very quickly.

I have a tendency to get really wordy with these posts, so I'll say the good bits first and let you get on with your day.

I've been writing indie games for a living for 30 years now and so have been shipping them continuously for longer, as far as I know, than anybody else, ever. Along the way, I've learned a thing or two about a thing or two.

Here are the most timeless, fundamental things to know about this business (and any business as a small indie making music, books, and so on):

1. It is an incredibly challenging, competitive business. Success is very rare, and ruin is always one bad decision away.
2. We sell products that are often very easy to pirate and there is always extremely high-quality competition available for FREE. (If you want to make a living selling indie games, my first question is always, "Can you compete with FREE?")
3. Anyone who actually gives you their hard-earned money doesn't have to. Therefore, this person is a treasure and must be valued.
4. Our greatest weapon is that fact that people like us and want us to succeed. The small, independent creator, tinkering away in the garage, is an incredibly powerful archetype to tap into.
5. If you are an indie developer and act in a publicly obnoxious and insulting way towards our precious, precious customers (or worse, defraud them), you're not just hurting yourself, but you're hurting all indie developers.
6. Don't do that.

There. That was is. Quick, clean, and easy. Plus, true. Please feel free to return to your Normal Internet Business. (Which, the way things have been going lately, means caring about what is happening on Twitter way too much.)



I love how there is now a standard format for these “We Screwed the Pooch” apologies. Adobe InDesign probably has a template for it. Back background. Tasteful font. Single game logo. NO COMIC SANS.
But There Is Room To Elaborate

In a situation I find intensely illustrative, several games this year tanked their releases and felt the need to publicly apologize. If getting a bad game is a concern to you as a customer, here is a way to solve 90% of your problems: NEVER, EVER PRE-ORDER GAMES.

(Also, wait for user reviews of games. Never trust professional reviews of AAA games. Never trust anyone. Move into a bunker with 5 tons of dried rations and only play Space Invaders until time ends.)

But whatever. Promising products fail. Stuff happens. Many a slip betwixt cup and lip.

Then I saw some popular threads on Twitter. They were written by professional indie game developers who should know better. They took the side of the apologizing developers against those stupid, entitled, bad, evil Gamer Dudez (tm). You know. People who DARE to want a functioning, entertaining game for their hard-earned dollars. (I’m not linking to these threads because I don’t like internet dog-piling. Just please take my work for it that this actually happened.)

Worse, the threads were responded to by other indie developers (who also should know better), echoing these sentiments.

First, Twitter is the worst medium for human communication in the history of human communication. It is a medium designed not to encourage thoughtful interaction but to actively prevent it. (Exercise: How does "The medium is the message." apply to Twitter? )

While Twitter is terrible, it is also influential. People pay attention to what happens there. Young developers. The press. OUR CUSTOMERS. So when you hang your bare ass out the window at the people who are giving me money, well, you're pissing in my pool.

Don't do that.



Apologizing is an incredibly important part of the human experience. Everyone knows everyone makes mistakes and does things they shouldn’t have. Yet, the past can never be rewritten. We apologize because it’s all we can do, and it DOES help.

A Few More Key Concepts To Remember

1. I believe a successful life in art needs, in some way, to come from love. You need a passion to make people happy to power you through the hard times. (There are always hard times.) If you have hatred or contempt for your customers, you're not gonna make it.

2. It is now standard to dismiss Evul Gamuhr Broz (tm) as "Entitled." My friends, gamers are the LEAST entitled fans in existence.

They will pay billions of dollars a year to FREE games like Fortnite and League of Legends for COSMETICS. Every year, a half dozen AAA games make enormous fortunes despite being barely functional. Hell, the fact that anyone in the world ever pre-orders a game even once shows that our customers trust us more than we deserve.

3. Most of your customers don't have a lot of money. Times are tight, folks, and getting tighter. I have started to feel that some of my indie game colleagues are becoming a touch, I don't know, sheltered? Most people aren't sitting on excess money right now.

My most precious fan mail comes from kids who worked hard and did chores and saved up to buy my games. Believe me, there are people out there who are scraping by, but they still manage to scrape together a few dollars to send you because they love you and want to support you. Believe me, they didn't have to pay you.

I try to smile and keep an even temper, but when I see my fellow developers say IN PUBLIC, "You're unhappy because you paid 40 bucks for a 2 hour game? HOW DARE YOU!?” I see red.

My friend, outside the big coastal cities, $40 US is real money. It’s groceries. They don’t have to spend their limited cash on games, at all. Plan accordingly.

4. Anything that comforts and reassures customers, like user reviews and refunds, is a good, good thing. Yes, there can be problems. The systems can be abused. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. The benefits of customer happiness far outweigh the drawbacks.

It is infuriating when a review system is abused to hurt a developer. However, the vast majority of the time, when a game gets bad reviews (including mine), they are deserved.

5. I beg you, don't rip people off with your Kickstarter. Some of us really need that platform to stay in business. And if you can't finish your Kickstarter game? It happens, but at least apologize. Pretty please?



This is not a real apology. It is making fun of a different sort-of apology that some found a bit lackluster. I just include this image because it made me giggle.

And That Is All You Need To Know

Never hurt innocent people in your rage at bad actors. If an anti-piracy system keeps one legit owner from playing their game, it was a bad system. If online reviews help people feel safe buying our shoddy wares, it’s a good system.

Remember, we make amusements. We produce happiness. We’re toymakers. So empathize with your fans. Put yourself in your shoes. You aren't Shakespeare, and you aren't working on the cure for cancer. So be kind and nice to people.

Anyway, I gotta go. This year's 40000th clone of Vampire Survivors just dropped, and I have to buy and savor it.

 

[Tyranicon]

There is some level of irony that Vogel, the iconic mid-level RPG solodev, is hopelessly addicted to Vampire Survivor and its clones.

I also wonder if he has some new thoughts about BG3.

 

[Tweed]

Made it three lines in before he played the "I've been doing this before you were born" card.

 

[The_Sloth_Sleeps]

Good post: https://bottomfeeder.substack.com/p/the-most-important-article-on-selling

The Most Important Article On Selling Indie Games Ever!​

Please don't pee in the pool I'm swimming in.​

People really undervalue apologies. Almost everyone understands that sometimes things don’t work out and nothing can be done now. An honest apology will defuse a lot of free-floating rage very quickly.

I have a tendency to get really wordy with these posts, so I'll say the good bits first and let you get on with your day.

I've been writing indie games for a living for 30 years now and so have been shipping them continuously for longer, as far as I know, than anybody else, ever. Along the way, I've learned a thing or two about a thing or two.

Here are the most timeless, fundamental things to know about this business (and any business as a small indie making music, books, and so on):

1. It is an incredibly challenging, competitive business. Success is very rare, and ruin is always one bad decision away.
2. We sell products that are often very easy to pirate and there is always extremely high-quality competition available for FREE. (If you want to make a living selling indie games, my first question is always, "Can you compete with FREE?")
3. Anyone who actually gives you their hard-earned money doesn't have to. Therefore, this person is a treasure and must be valued.
4. Our greatest weapon is that fact that people like us and want us to succeed. The small, independent creator, tinkering away in the garage, is an incredibly powerful archetype to tap into.
5. If you are an indie developer and act in a publicly obnoxious and insulting way towards our precious, precious customers (or worse, defraud them), you're not just hurting yourself, but you're hurting all indie developers.
6. Don't do that.

There. That was is. Quick, clean, and easy. Plus, true. Please feel free to return to your Normal Internet Business. (Which, the way things have been going lately, means caring about what is happening on Twitter way too much.)



I love how there is now a standard format for these “We Screwed the Pooch” apologies. Adobe InDesign probably has a template for it. Back background. Tasteful font. Single game logo. NO COMIC SANS.
But There Is Room To Elaborate

In a situation I find intensely illustrative, several games this year tanked their releases and felt the need to publicly apologize. If getting a bad game is a concern to you as a customer, here is a way to solve 90% of your problems: NEVER, EVER PRE-ORDER GAMES.

(Also, wait for user reviews of games. Never trust professional reviews of AAA games. Never trust anyone. Move into a bunker with 5 tons of dried rations and only play Space Invaders until time ends.)

But whatever. Promising products fail. Stuff happens. Many a slip betwixt cup and lip.

Then I saw some popular threads on Twitter. They were written by professional indie game developers who should know better. They took the side of the apologizing developers against those stupid, entitled, bad, evil Gamer Dudez (tm). You know. People who DARE to want a functioning, entertaining game for their hard-earned dollars. (I’m not linking to these threads because I don’t like internet dog-piling. Just please take my work for it that this actually happened.)

Worse, the threads were responded to by other indie developers (who also should know better), echoing these sentiments.

First, Twitter is the worst medium for human communication in the history of human communication. It is a medium designed not to encourage thoughtful interaction but to actively prevent it. (Exercise: How does "The medium is the message." apply to Twitter? )

While Twitter is terrible, it is also influential. People pay attention to what happens there. Young developers. The press. OUR CUSTOMERS. So when you hang your bare ass out the window at the people who are giving me money, well, you're pissing in my pool.

Don't do that.



Apologizing is an incredibly important part of the human experience. Everyone knows everyone makes mistakes and does things they shouldn’t have. Yet, the past can never be rewritten. We apologize because it’s all we can do, and it DOES help.

A Few More Key Concepts To Remember

1. I believe a successful life in art needs, in some way, to come from love. You need a passion to make people happy to power you through the hard times. (There are always hard times.) If you have hatred or contempt for your customers, you're not gonna make it.

2. It is now standard to dismiss Evul Gamuhr Broz (tm) as "Entitled." My friends, gamers are the LEAST entitled fans in existence.

They will pay billions of dollars a year to FREE games like Fortnite and League of Legends for COSMETICS. Every year, a half dozen AAA games make enormous fortunes despite being barely functional. Hell, the fact that anyone in the world ever pre-orders a game even once shows that our customers trust us more than we deserve.

3. Most of your customers don't have a lot of money. Times are tight, folks, and getting tighter. I have started to feel that some of my indie game colleagues are becoming a touch, I don't know, sheltered? Most people aren't sitting on excess money right now.

My most precious fan mail comes from kids who worked hard and did chores and saved up to buy my games. Believe me, there are people out there who are scraping by, but they still manage to scrape together a few dollars to send you because they love you and want to support you. Believe me, they didn't have to pay you.

I try to smile and keep an even temper, but when I see my fellow developers say IN PUBLIC, "You're unhappy because you paid 40 bucks for a 2 hour game? HOW DARE YOU!?” I see red.

My friend, outside the big coastal cities, $40 US is real money. It’s groceries. They don’t have to spend their limited cash on games, at all. Plan accordingly.

4. Anything that comforts and reassures customers, like user reviews and refunds, is a good, good thing. Yes, there can be problems. The systems can be abused. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. The benefits of customer happiness far outweigh the drawbacks.

It is infuriating when a review system is abused to hurt a developer. However, the vast majority of the time, when a game gets bad reviews (including mine), they are deserved.

5. I beg you, don't rip people off with your Kickstarter. Some of us really need that platform to stay in business. And if you can't finish your Kickstarter game? It happens, but at least apologize. Pretty please?



This is not a real apology. It is making fun of a different sort-of apology that some found a bit lackluster. I just include this image because it made me giggle.

And That Is All You Need To Know

Never hurt innocent people in your rage at bad actors. If an anti-piracy system keeps one legit owner from playing their game, it was a bad system. If online reviews help people feel safe buying our shoddy wares, it’s a good system.

Remember, we make amusements. We produce happiness. We’re toymakers. So empathize with your fans. Put yourself in your shoes. You aren't Shakespeare, and you aren't working on the cure for cancer. So be kind and nice to people.

Anyway, I gotta go. This year's 40000th clone of Vampire Survivors just dropped, and I have to buy and savor it.

I don't think its a good or valuable post, actually. Apart from a few very obvious points theres not much content.

The main point I didn't like is his claim about competing with "free". There are many indie genres. You aren't always competing with "free" at all. Perhaps you ought not to really be competing within the free genres.

Point 3 (most people that buy JV games can't really afford his games), I think is an topic interesting, yet not insightful. I suspect that its not the case for the majority of his sales actually.

Can JV really be regarded as someone to take business insights from? When the majority of his advice comes in the form of platitudes I can't take him seriously.

 

[Tyranicon]

Can JV really be regarded as someone to take business insights from? When the majority of his advice comes in the form of platitudes I can't take him seriously.

Speaking personally, I don't think Vogel is well-known for his "business insights." His shtick is basically being the old friendly uncle of the RPG dev scene, writing somewhat self-indulgent blogs about how old he is (dude's in his early 50s), how quickly time has flown by, and what these young whippersnappers are doing.

However, his GDC talk is one of the best insights into solodev RPG creation. It also gives you a snapshot into a man that turned his hobby into a profitable (if not super lucrative) career for three decades. Of course, his experiences are far too dated to be useful, but it's still an interesting watch.

He is, more or less, a trail-blazing pioneer for solodev in general.

 

[The_Sloth_Sleeps]

Can JV really be regarded as someone to take business insights from? When the majority of his advice comes in the form of platitudes I can't take him seriously.

Speaking personally, I don't think Vogel is well-known for his "business insights." His shtick is basically being the old friendly uncle of the RPG dev scene, writing somewhat self-indulgent blogs about how old he is (dude's in his early 50s), how quickly time has flown by, and what these young whippersnappers are doing.

However, his GDC talk is one of the best insights into solodev RPG creation. It also gives you a snapshot into a man that turned his hobby into a profitable (if not super lucrative) career for three decades. Of course, his experiences are far too dated to be useful, but it's still an interesting watch.

He is, more or less, a trail-blazing pioneer for solodev in general.

Yeah I've seen that video, its a bit more useful. I don't watch GDC talks in general, the vast majority of it is unrelatable. For solo dev RPGs its a bit difficult to get an idea for how large the market is. Its small but serviceble I think, and that JV is still in business is the most valuable insight of all. I think theres a few templates out there for success.

I don't know of many (any?) good solo dev rpgs that are not what the dev does for a living. If you make something good, theres at least a small market for it. I'm sure theres a wider truth, but that's the only real angle I know.

 

[thesecret1]

I don't think its a good or valuable post, actually. Apart from a few very obvious points theres not much content.

At least this time there's nothing outright false (like his claims about how hiring an artist for his games would cost a gorillion dollars, lol). His view on "people being too poor to afford vidya" is amusing, but it does touch on an important fact – people don't HAVE TO pay you a dime. Nearly any game can be pirated, very easily and very fast. If they do give you money, it's more of a show of support rather than paying for product. It's a "hey, I didn't have to pay you anything, but I want to, because I like the stuff you make, and want you to continue doing it". But if you act like a douchebag, you better believe it you won't see a dime from me ever again.

I've seen this mindset among indie devs too: "Oh my god, I'm providing them so much content for so cheap, and they have the audacity to talk shit?" They have it backwards. An indie dev is less of a baker that sells you fresh buns for cheap, and more of a singer whose concert you came to visit – nobody thinks the fans owe the singer anything for being graced by his music, because the notion is ridiculous. Instead, the singer usually thanks the fans because he knows that without them, he'd be nothing, and that none of them have to be there and give him their money, that if he acts like a shithead towards them, they'll just abandon him.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

Liking games and comics has been absolutely shit for me in the last 15 years though. Nerd culture being the mainstream has absolutely gentrified it and it mostly operates on the wallet of a 30-something, 40-something single dude with no kids and no hobbies outside of vidya. Of course they'll be able to spend 100bucks/euro + on the latest electronic pacifier, together with the oversized figurine they actually hate. It's all they have in life. That's why onlyfans thrives too, because whales come from the same demographic. I do think Vogel has a point on games getting too expensive eventually, because other than shiny things, there's nothing new for people out there. This is made much more ironic if you play Fifa, because when you ask Career Mode fans what would they like for that mode in the next game, everyone mentions stuff that was actually taken off the game by EA. And yeah it's EA, but all gaming companies operate like that now. Hardware has advanced to the point where the increases on performance are beginning to be placebo for the average human's perception levels.

 

[Elthosian]

Power fantasies can be wonderfully soothing. Yet, there is nothing childish or happy about them. When our society mainly indulges in power fantasies, this is a sad thing. It is a way we cope with our own perceived lack of power.

You only fantasize about having things you don't already have.

Correct. It's why almost every fantasy anime is a power fantasy – when you're a sad, lonely guy living in a cheap aparment, wageslaving at a shit job, with virtually nothing save for cheap entertainment to look forward to, an escape into a fantasy where things are different is about the only way to cope. With more and more people like that, the entertainment naturally shifts to cater to them. It's not really a bad thing, more of a reflection of the state of our society.

Might explain why I hate most anime, nothing like living a good life to develop taste in media and keep the decline away from my library

Seriously now, I share most of what he wrote there, particularly when it comes to videogames. Whenever a game has conflict or survival as part of its mechanics, I need to feel the challenge and the adversity, or else the experience feels cheap. You can do this while keeping a lot of bravery and power fantasy in your narrative, but sometimes the disconnect becomes strong enough that you might as well skip the whole plot or make it more of a joke like Kamiya usually does. I really wish more devs would do From Software subplots with semi-likable characters being doomed to die when you beat their questlines, or straight killing off some of the protagonists without allowing you to savescum back in time to avoid it.

When it comes to movies and books, most of what I've enjoyed is either Eastern European or magic realism (fitting as I've been to Garcia Marquez' birthtown more times than I can count), so I'll have to stand strong with the nihilists on this. Capeshit, blockbusters, and Disney content has always been thoroughly unenjoyable to me, and most high fantasy stuff feels samey at this point. I can still find a few movies that I like even nowadays but I usually end up looking up media that was inspired by my favorites, which almost always works. Certainly, too, there are some pieces of more optimistic media I have enjoyed but these are seldom within the realm of fantasy.

I'd say my favorite thing about fantasy media is discovery* and interacting with/visualizing alien environments, which makes me value mediocre sci-fi over decent fantasy. Heroes, magic, paladins, elves, and good vs evil quests feel so mundane to me at this point I might as well watch a documentary about meerkats and it would be more thrilling. In that regard, even if Jeff's been rehashing the same stuff over and over, playing Geneforge 2 around a decade ago was an amazing experience and I have to thank him for it.

* this is also why I value systems depth and complex mechanics, as those always translate into more stuff to discover before you feel like you've went through everything a game has to offer. That's also why I rely a lot on the Codex to filter popamole crap out of my library, and oh boy, popamole sure seems to be mostly comprised of power fantasies

Post-modern and "deconstructionist" authors hate strength, purity, virtue, and courage so they write how all those things are fake and lame and everyone is a corrupt, spiteful, miserable asshole just like they are. Solipsism and misanthropy camouflaged as 'art.' This is heralded as bold and innovative by jaded critics who are tired of good-vs-evil and just want to see something new, and foisted on audiences who find appeal in exploitation and puerility (blood and boobs) but quickly get turned away by the overpowering nihilism.

Then someone comes along and writes a proper reactionary fantasy story, it makes a shitzillion dollars, and every acts like they just discovered Atlantis.

Well, we know where we are on the cycle now.

Disliking excessive displays of strength, purity, virtue, and courage in entertainment is hardly sign of not giving value to them as part of your life. Might sound like dumb reductionism but you can prefer post-apocalyptic settings and hate green and cute fantasy while still appreciating time spent in nature and hugging trees in real life. I, for one, got to know people addicted to the bleakest Russian literature yet they are optimistic, kind, courageous, and virtuous, to the point they got me to prepare food for homeless fellas in some pretty dangerous places more than a few times. Maybe it's different for authors since many of them had relatively shitty lives while coming up with some of the more pessimistic pieces of literature, but not everyone sees entertainment as a way to reaffirm their views or desires about life and that is a very obvious thing you're glossing over. Vogel is an older dude that probably has been with his wife for a few decades yet continues to routinely share hobbies with her, so I'd bet he's much less miserable than the average Codexer, and if he was lucky enough to get a couple of children, he's probably happier than the 99th percentile cutoff of people posting here.

Remember that the standards of living today are high enough that many authors probably delve into nihilism out of being influenced by the art they enjoy rather than by their own experiences. Whether that results in better or worse products, I don't know, but I sure enjoy them.

Liking games and comics has been absolutely shit for me in the last 15 years though. Nerd culture being the mainstream has absolutely gentrified it and it mostly operates on the wallet of a 30-something, 40-something single dude with no kids and no hobbies outside of vidya. Of course they'll be able to spend 100bucks/euro + on the latest electronic pacifier, together with the oversized figurine they actually hate. It's all they have in life. That's why onlyfans thrives too, because whales come from the same demographic. I do think Vogel has a point on games getting too expensive eventually, because other than shiny things, there's nothing new for people out there. This is made much more ironic if you play Fifa, because when you ask Career Mode fans what would they like for that mode in the next game, everyone mentions stuff that was actually taken off the game by EA. And yeah it's EA, but all gaming companies operate like that now. Hardware has advanced to the point where the increases on performance are beginning to be placebo for the average human's perception levels.

That's true, although at least video games have gotten much better with Steam sales if you're patient, and PC building has improved a lot with second-hand 30X0 GPUs going for as little as 200 and 300 bucks. No way in hell I would have been able to invest as much into vidya without doing computer science for college and marrying at 25, though, but I must admit it feels nice to splurge once in a while.

 

[Infinitron]

https://bottomfeeder.substack.com/p/the-fast-life-and-fiery-death-of

The Fast Life and Fiery Death of Vampire Survivors Games.​

Indie developers can strip a genre to the bones faster than piranhas can finish off a cow.​

The one, the only, the original. If it looks good, you should write a copy of it. Everyone else has.

Way back in February, I wrote a big article about indie phenomenon Vampire Survivors. It was a fun cheap game that is still fun and cheap.

It's also a charming, scruffy take on the classic Twin-Stick Shooter genre, great for mindless gaming, with a price that is effectively zero. A great idea. So great that a million indie developers coincidentally had the EXACT same idea a few days later.

Time moves quick these days. There's a lot to learn from checking back in with this story. Both about game design, and about the indie games biz as a whole.


Brotato has a great design. There is a huge variety of character and builds, and they all play really differently. I recommend it.

Nobody Stripmines An Idea As Well As Indie Devs Do

The history… Vampire Survivors entered early access in December, 2021. It became a word-of-mouth (and streaming) hit in mere months. It was released for real in October, 2022.

Indie developers started copying it almost immediately after it went public. With such frequency and enthusiasm that, in April, 2023, Humble Bundle did a "Best of Survivors-Like Bundle" This, of course, was only a small selection of "Survivors-Like" titles, with the more successful ones (like Brotato and 20 Minutes Till Dawn) absent.

Giving this sort of design (simple, low-budget, easy to copy) to hungry indie developers was like throwing a sheep into a piranha tank. We stripped it to the bone in a year.

I was inspired to write this post because I saw a popular streamer playing Yet Another Zombie Survivors.

And. Um. I don't like criticizing indie developers. I wish success to them all. And the game looks competently made. But. Well. If the name of your game starts with "Yet Another”, we may have a problem.

I recently got a lot of people shouting at me when I said there are too many indie games. But ... It's still true, and truer every day.


20 Minutes Till Dawn plays well and has a decent number of interesting builds. It also got repetitive for me pretty quickly and I wish it was prettier.

This Genre Is a Deathtrap

One of the most important qualities of a "Survivors-Like" game is not quality. It's price. Vampire Survivors sells for five bucks, so its clones are pressured to charge that much at most.

Let's be clear. This price point is a deathtrap.

Indie games are a niche, bespoke project, so we almost always sell smaller numbers of copies. That means we have to charge a decent price (usually $20-25) to have a chance to break even. To make money with a $5 game, you have to sell big numbers, and, in a market this crowded, almost none of these games will.

Recommended Clones

I played a few of these clones because I love Twin-Stick Shooters. As mentioned above, Brotato and 20 Minutes Till Dawn are popular and worth the tiny price.

Soulstone Survivors is OK. Pretty, with nice boss variety. Yet, it's been in Early Access for a long time, so buyer beware.


Yet Another Zombie Survivors seems competent, but its shrug of a title keeps me from wanting to play it. I’m sure they care about their game, but this title makes it seem like they don’t.

Meanwhile, In Vampire Survivors

The game made a ton of money. Its creator hired a bunch of staff, and they've been releasing bunches of new content. Some of it very cheap DLC. A lot of it free. I think they're doing a great job of keeping the title alive and fresh. (Steam Workshop could do INSANE things with this game.)

However, now that I can compare it to a lot of new takes on the same basic design, I'm finding something very interesting. Vampire Survivors has a design that is flawed in some ways, and the copycat games fix the problems.

Vampire Survivors has a ton of weapons, and they're adding more all the time. However, the weapons aren't balanced well. One weapon (the time freeze gun) is absolutely necessary to do the toughest challenges, while many of the other weapons are just traps for the player, way too weak compared to other options.

The newer games try much harder to balance the weapons against each other, providing a better variety of builds.

Similarly, there isn't much difference between most Vampire Survivor characters, while the newer games provide a choice of characters which lend themselves to a bigger variety of strategies. (Brotato is VERY interesting for this. It has dozens of characters that play very differently, though some balance tweaks would be to the good.)

Don't get me wrong. Vampire Survivors is still fun, and I occasionally give it a play or two when new content comes out.

I just think that, when looking at the improved designs, diminishing returns has set in. If you have an idea for a new twist on this design, it better be REALLY new.


The original. If you ever find an old arcade-style version of it, play it. Very difficult, but holds up. The main problem with the machines is maintenance. They are 40+ years old, and the joysticks have to work really well.

Actually, Vampire Survivors Earns Its Money

I think Vampire Survivors is a flawed game and this could make a really interesting design discussion. Yet, its developers do have one feature coming that explains why they are Very Smart People who earn their money.

Soon, Vampire Survivors will have couch co-op.

I have always said the secret power of indies is being able to pick up neglected genres, dust them off, and revive them. Alas, with the indie market so massively flooded, there are few of these genres left. Couch co-op and party games are one of them. There is a lot of room for someone to eat Jackbox's lunch.

Survivors-like games are PERFECT for couch co-op and party play. Yet, how many games in the genre have it? It was a perfect way for a new title to stand out. Instead, Vampire Survivors is picking up that $20 bill lying in the street.

When its couch co-op patch comes out, I'm buying a second copy on console. Something I basically never do.


One of the best twin-stick shooters ever and FREE ON STEAM RIGHT NOW GO GET IT GO GO GO.

One Final Design Note

The thing that is really bugging me about these games is how bland the levels and the enemies are. Twenty minutes of the same foes, in the same order, acting in exactly the same brain-dead way. I can't understand why the designer-instincts of the developers aren't being tickled more.

Consider the very, VERY first game of the genre, the classic Robotron: 2084, which came out OVER FORTY YEARS ago. It had more variety in its basic enemies than most survivors-likes now, including Vampire Survivors.

Every 5th level of that game was a Brain Wave. You were swarmed by the fearsome Brains. They would fire wiggly, heat-seaking missiles. They would also seek out your resources and convert them into missiles to launch at you.

The Brains had so much more thought and care in them than what I'm seeing today. With so much competition and with it being so hard to stand out, why not put some thoughts into your enemies, folks? (The bosses in the excellent Beat Hazard are also really neat.)

There. Another $20 bill lying in the street. Good luck out there!