Jeff Vogel Soapbox Thread

[KeighnMcDeath]

If his remakes improved each game in all ways it might be fine since it is his hobby job. If he just gets sloppy then meh.

 

[Tyranicon]

I think Jeff just likes his role as a somewhat obscure mentor figure for other obscure would-be RPG developers.

Which is fine, he's earned it. I can't think of anybody else who's made a living for two decades and more by just producing niche RPGs with a similarly small but loyal fanbase. Especially someone who's basically a solodev.

Unfortunately, I don't think these blog posts are super useful because they're preaching to the choir and offering information that is well-known by now. I read them occasionally because I like his irreverent writing style and constant complaining. Reminds me of an... older me?

Like his last post is basically be good at what you do, be cheap, gamedev is an art job so you're gonna suffer. Yeah, anybody who's actually gonna have a chance in this industry probably already knows that.

God created Arrakis Gamedev to train the faithful.

 

[Hammer Of The Heretics]

Well known facts need to be restated frequently or they cease to be well known, particularly given the vast human capacity for wilful self-delusion.

 

[Old One]

Looking forward to the 25th annual Jeff Vogel retirement tour!

 

[Beans00]

Jeff was born in 1970, he's 54. Isn't that a bit early for retirement? What he's gonna do for the next 25-40 years? I'm sure we can get some more games from him.

He bemoans about his age and retirement on a regular basis. It's not like game making is being an athlete. I believe he will keep making games, and keep complaining.

He will probably need to keep working for another 5-10 years at least. As a solo dev he's probably pulling in somewhere between 150-250k a year. Which is good money, but he was probably making much less in the 90s and early, mid 00's. He's also his own boss so he doesn't have any company pension plan aside from his savings. Washington state is also expensive near Seattle (I think that's where he's from?).


Good luck to Vogel, I have never completed one of his games but he has courage of one thousand men and 400 housecats.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

150K a year? Good lord. I barely see 5k a year (which mostly goes to taxes and phone bill).

 

[OSK]

150K a year? Good lord. I barely see 5k a year (which mostly goes to taxes and phone bill).

Why are you even paying anything other than sales tax if you make that little?

 

[Hammer Of The Heretics]

Maybe property tax if he owns a house?

 

[JarlFrank]

Taxation is theft.
If people had any sense at all, it would be possible to organize a mass tax boycott. If every single person on the planet refused to pay taxes, governments wouldn't be able to enforce it due to sheer volume.
But some people out there legit defend taxation, so they'd never participate. Crazy world.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Prices would be a fuck ton cheaper with lower taxes and maybe businesses would stay in the USA. Oregon has no official
Sales tax though the fucks want one (a lot of hidden taxes theough bonds retards vote in). Property taxes can suck but my parents chunk of land would come to a low amount per month (about $300 a mo compared to the fucking rent everywhere). The land is about 4 acres or is it 5. I obviously would hate to see such a piece of real estate lost by my parents never paying the taxes which they avoid like the plague (even though the rat swarm will probably bring the plague).

Less about me and more about Vogel. Life is tough for him. We should all give him a hand and buy one of his games.

 

[Hammer Of The Heretics]

I've already bought twelve of them over the years, so I'm good.

 

[luj1]

Would love Nethergate to get the Exile treatment.

 

[mindx2]

Would love Nethergate to get the Exile treatment.

I would love an actual Exile type game again!

 

[Modron]

Would love Nethergate to get the Exile treatment.

I assume you mean several sequels and not a third slightly worse remake.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Isn't Iceblink engine ok? A little asset theft copy/pasta and it could look quite similar.

 

[Infinitron]

https://bottomfeeder.substack.com/p/picking-apart-baldurs-gate-3-part

Picking Apart Baldur's Gate 3, Part 1 (The Story)​

Telling a complex story without too much annoying reading.​

To show I am a serious game writer, I have made OC self-insert fan art of my head canon.
It took far longer than I wanted, because I was really busy finishing my own weird RPG (out March 27!), but I finally finished Baldur's Gate 3.

If you make video games, it's really important to pick apart notable games and find out what does and doesn't work. 90% of creating video games is finding the right ideas to steal. We all stand on the shoulders of giants, after all.

I'll end the suspense. Baldur's Gate 3 (BG3 for short) is brilliant, easily one of the best computer RPGs ever made. There is a LOT to learn here. I want to spend a couple posts picking the fibers apart and seeing the good things to learn (a bunch) and a few nitpicky problems.

(There are very, very minimal spoilers in this.)

This Is Great News For My Business

Flatteringly, PC Gamer asked for my opinions about Baldur's Gate 3. Being me, I focused on the business aspect of it.

I am always thrilled when a turn-based, story-heavy RPG makes it big. It makes fans of the genre, which, in turn, makes customers for me. The timing was perfect. Most people are done with Baldur's Gate 3 now, and those who still have a taste for the genre might try Geneforge 2 - Infestation. (Out March 27. Did I mention?)

Being old, I've now see the RPG genre be revolutionized by three different Baldur's Gate games. The first one came out in 1998 after a huge drought of RPGs and brought the genre back to life.

The second one came out in 2000 and combined cool gameplay, depth of story, and fully fleshed-out party members in a way never done before. (At the time, I publicly said that, if you haven't played Baldur's Gate 2, do so before you bother with any of my games. I am TERRIBLE at business.)

Honestly, Baldur's Gate 3 doesn't do anything truly new. It's a game where quantity has a quality all its own. This game does what has been done before at an unprecedented scale, level of detail, quality, fun, and just plain style. It's good, it's BIG, and the quality continues the whole way through.



Besties for lyfe.
A Few Words About the Path I Took

I played a basically good character. My party was Gale (zzz), Waifuheart, and my new bestie, Lae'zel. I've heard that Lae'zel is not a popular companion, which is a pity. Her storyline was easily my favorite.

If I had infinite time, I'd love to play through again with an evil character. Maybe when I retire.

I played on normal middle not-too-hot-not-too-cold difficulty. It was pretty tricky at the start, and I was totally stomping everything at the end.

One of the things that makes BG3 work is it has a really good story, and it tells it well. What fascinates me is the choices they made to make the storytelling so effective (and profitable).

Storytelling Sells

I'll keep saying it until I'm blue in the face. If you want a compelling game that builds a passionate fanbase, interesting storytelling is the most cost-effective way to do it. Pay attention to your writing, developers. A good story costs as much as a bad story and is far, far more compelling.

What are some things that make this game's story good?

First, it has a great hook. You start with mind-control worms in your head that give you powers but will kill you soon. Instantly compelling and full of urgency and mystery, in the first few minutes of the game.

Second, the pacing is good, which is key in a lore-heavy game like this. In Act 1, it dumps you into a very simple world with very simple factions and forces you to make high-stakes decisions about them. No big lore-dumps early on.

There's bad goblins and good refugees, with a few side arguments to add detail. You get to make a few high-stakes decisions to keep you involved, but nothing that ruins the whole game. You get plenty of time to find your footing before it dumps gods and power politics on your head.

Third, the characters immediately start trying to have sex with you. Very attention-grabbing.

Fourth, once you're past the intro, you learn of the existence of the Head Bad Guy. (HBG for short.) This is a very tender, special moment in a role-playing game. You have to time it right.

You should learn about the HBG when you're far enough into the game for you to be invested in it but soon enough that it gives you a goal to focus on when tons of lore, whiny NPCs and nonsense is thrown at you. BG3 times this well. Between the HBG and the brain worms, even if you get lost in the plot, you still have goals to focus on.

Fifth, your companions are interesting people, funny, flawed, and charming in equal measure. Which is all good. More importantly, they immediately start making demands of you. Like, you need their help, but they immediately make it clear they won't fight for free. Another example of giving interesting choices early only. Having Gale need to eat a useless magic item occasionally is genius.



If I could make one change to the Larian design aesthetic: Yes, gamers love content. FIFTY EMPTY BOXES ARE NOT CONTENT.
It's An Efficient Story

What really impresses me about this is that while BG3's story is really involving, you never actually see that many words. The conversations, even vital ones, are really quick.

Yes, BG3 has like a million words in it and tons and tons of voice acting, but which ones you see depends on the choices you make. However, you won't encounter that many words in one playthrough.

This game conveys a lot of storytelling in a very efficient way, without excess verbiage. This is not easy! Telling a story with a ton of words? That's easy. Editing it down so that it's very dense and tight and respects your time but still has the full effect? That takes a lot of work.

In the Old Days, These Games Were Wordy

The first two Baldur's Gate games (and other classics using the same engine, Like Planescape: Torment) told their stories through reading. Lots of words. Walls of words.

Of course, this is a legitimate way to tell a story in a retro, turn-based RPG. All my games do this. A lot of successful indie games, like Pillars of Eternity and Disco Elysium, are fueled by the power of words

It works. For a lot of people, reading is fun.

However, let's be honest ... In 2024, a game with a ton of reading can do well, but it won't be a megahit. We do not currently live in a culture of readers. (Though people who DO like reading in their video games are an underserved niche that spends money. FYI.)

So BG3 has a really tight script. No words go to waste. Yet, it makes highly compelling characters and complex situations using a remarkably small amount of prose. How? What is this game's secret sauce?



I cast Guidance so many times the mouse movement is etched into my muscle memory. My wrist keeps doing that motion when I try to do my taxes.
People Like Good Acting, Who Knew?

Once they decided to make a new Baldur's Gate game, I think the single best decision Larian made was to hire really skilled actors and do full mo-cap on them.

How do you get full effect from a small amount of dialogue? Simple. You act the hell out of it.

Of course, there have been many games with terrific voice acting. It does a lot to help a game. I just believe that BG3 had to get more value out of its actors, because their performances (vocal and physical) help communicate some of the huge amounts of information that need to be conveyed to the player.

Baldur's Gate 3 is BIG. It's a LOT. Lots of characters, lands, cultures, drama, stuff to do. It needs to provide plot and lore, but it also needs to tell you about the qualities and emotions of the many, many characters you meet.

The performances are carefully crafted to tell you all you need to know about the emotional states of these characters. Then the precious, limited time and words could be used for plot mechanics and exposition.

This doesn't just happen. It takes lots of care- careful writing, good direction, and skilled actors. Very impressive work.



Actual talent is precious and limited. I’ve long believed that, in my country, most people can only have long careers in art if they band together in unions, Hollywood-style. Bear in mind this will occasionally require you to stand outside, rain or shine, for months.
Did You Know Actors Have Unions?

An interesting aside. As I write this, there are rumblings that game voice actors may go on strike.

Voice actors are some of the few workers in this industry with union protection. In movies, almost everyone is in a union. The protection this gives is how you have a small chance of having a full career in Hollywood.

When voice actors go on strike, you can always count on angry muttering from game programmers. "Why do they get special treatment? All they do is talk!" Baldur's Gate 3 is a good reminder of how voice work can be the tip of the spear for making people actually care about your product.

If this is your complaint, instead of being jealous because some people who worked on your game are actually protected (and maybe even get royalties to keep them fed), maybe you should take a moment to wonder why nobody is looking out for you.

That 25 year old who is laughing at unions for fellow creators? You won't hear his opinion on the topic when he's 35. Because crap conditions will have driven him out of the industry. He'll have been replaced with the next generation of disposable cannon fodder.

But back to the topic at hand.

Quantity Has a Quality All Its Own

Honestly, while there are some really intriguing elements, much of the storytelling in Baldur's Gate 3 is pretty standard RPG fodder. There's a Head Bad Guy. To kill him, you have to deal with the Head Bad Guy's Three Evil Flunkies. There's a lot of fun and intriguing elements (like Auntie Ethel, or the baby owlbear, or the brain worms), but they hang off of a fairly standard structure.

Sometime's it's enough to tell an old story, but tell it WELL.

That's the storytelling aspect of it. Next time, gameplay and the zesty way they took a wrench to the Dungeons & Dragons ruleset.

 

[Cohesion]

https://bottomfeeder.substack.com/p/picking-apart-baldurs-gate-3-part

Storytelling Sells
First, it has a great hook. You start with mind-control worms in your head that give you powers but will kill you soon. Instantly compelling and full of urgency and mystery, in the first few minutes of the game.

Second, the pacing is good, which is key in a lore-heavy game like this. In Act 1, it dumps you into a very simple world with very simple factions and forces you to make high-stakes decisions about them. No big lore-dumps early on.

There's bad goblins and good refugees, with a few side arguments to add detail. You get to make a few high-stakes decisions to keep you involved, but nothing that ruins the whole game. You get plenty of time to find your footing before it dumps gods and power politics on your head.

Third, the characters immediately start trying to have sex with you. Very attention-grabbing.

Fourth, once you're past the intro, you learn of the existence of the Head Bad Guy. (HBG for short.) This is a very tender, special moment in a role-playing game. You have to time it right.
It's An Efficient Story

Demented cuck. In before shitty romances in his next games.

 

[Tyranicon]

One of the things that makes BG3 work is it has a really good story, and it tells it well.

All opinions disregarded forever.

 

[Serus]

If Jeff wasn't planning to retire after concluding the Queen's Wish series, no doubt his next new IP would have been influenced by the success of Baldur's Gate 3. I guess he still has time to do that with Queen's Wish 3.

Jeff was born in 1970, he's 54. Isn't that a bit early for retirement? What he's gonna do for the next 25-40 years? I'm sure we can get some more games from him.

In the next 10 or so years, perhaps, make more games. However not everyone, in fact very few people, remain as creative in their 70s and later as they were when younger. Most create their most creative, original stuff even earlier, no later than in their 50s. This is not something unknown, human brain, as we age, progressively loses the ability to easily create new neural connections. More and more we are able to only repeat what we already learnt in the past. Hence, most creators at some point start to only copy their old ideas - sometimes making them even better due to more experience - but not new great things. There are exceptions, of curse, we do not loose the ability to learn new things completely and we age at different speeds, sort of.

 

[Maxie]

If Jeff wasn't planning to retire after concluding the Queen's Wish series, no doubt his next new IP would have been influenced by the success of Baldur's Gate 3. I guess he still has time to do that with Queen's Wish 3.

Jeff was born in 1970, he's 54. Isn't that a bit early for retirement? What he's gonna do for the next 25-40 years? I'm sure we can get some more games from him.

In the next 10 or so years, perhaps, make more games. However not everyone, in fact very few people, remain as creative in their 70s and later as they were when younger. Most create their most creative, original stuff even earlier, no later than in their 50s. This is not something unknown, human brain, as we age, progressively loses the ability to easily create new neural connections. More and more we are able to only repeat what we already learnt in the past. Hence, most creators at some point start to only copy their old ideas - sometimes making them even better due to more experience - but not new great things. There are exceptions, of curse, we do not loose the ability to learn new things completely and we age at different speeds, sort of.

Vogel hasnt been creative in over a decade

 

[BosanskiSeljak]

A nerd who, even if deep down knows the truth, is too weak to deal with current times. That's why even in his talk he talks about how it really isn't as bad as others because he's a white male. I hope his children don't end up like Shamus Young, troons who start desecrating his life's work before he's even buried. Even if I feel sad about it, I still have old works (Geneforge) that are amazing.

 

[Agesilaus]

Can you imagine if ten or twenty years from now Vogel gets denounced by his kids as racist because of the Shapers. I refuse to believe that will happen. Long live the Shapers, Hail Vogel.

 

[BosanskiSeljak]

Can you imagine if ten or twenty years from now Vogel gets denounced by his kids as racist because of the Shapers. I refuse to believe that will happen. Long live the Shapers, Hail Vogel.

Shaper master race. How dare those "awakened' think they could ever be on the same level?

 

[Infinitron]

On Vogel's future plans: https://bottomfeeder.substack.com/p/we-released-geneforge-2-infestation

(Other games suffered more. Before long, we will remaster Avernum 4, and that one will need and get a LOT of work.)

I am probably about 12 years from looking at retirement. In that time, we have six old games that are really cool but need a full remaster treatment to bring them into the present. We also have several other games that need a quick polish treatment (like art and rebalancing) to send them into posterity.

And we have ambitions to make new stuff too.

That said, I’m sort of transitioning into the Billy Joel phase of the career. My best, most creative period is behind me, but there is still a lot that should be done. I've written 18 all-new games. Eighteen! This has already been a hugely prolific career. Now I need to wrap everything up, tie up the loose ends, and take a bow with as many people satisfied as possible.

In a few months, I'll let our fans know what the next two years of Spiderweb will look like. We have some exciting plans!

The six old games: Geneforge 3-5, Avernum 4-6.

What does he want to "quickly polish" up? Avadon?

 

[Mauman]

Geneforge 3 could really use an update. It's generally considered the weakest Geneforge.

Now, I have to figure out how to get my KS copy of Geneforge 2 (as it's been years since I've last used KS.